Why the country will never get better.

maple_leafs182 · February 2, 2010

Right now if you want a loan you go to a bank, RBC, TD, BMO, Scotia, CIBC or maybe a credit Union.

These are all Private corporations.

We then pay a certain percent of interest on those loans, usually compounded.

Right now, Our Federal and Provincial debts interest adds up to 160 million dollars a day.

All this money goes to these private banks

Banks reap in billions of dollars annually from profits.

See the problem.

Why do we loan from private banks.

Why are we not loaning directly from the Bank of Canada so all those profits go to The Bank of Canada. Since the Bank of Canada is owned by the People, all that profit from the interest would be going back to the people instead of the hands of bankers.

Why does the Bank of Canada contract its services to Private Banks who then reap the benefits.

It is exactly like the government putting a direct tax on the people and writing the cheque to the bankers.

Now see the problem?

William Lyon Mackenzie King, 10th Prime Minister of Canada

"Once a nation parts with the control of its currency and credit, it matters not who makes the nations laws. Usury, once in control, will wreck any nation. Until the control of the issue of currency and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most sacred responsibility, all talk of the sovereignty of parliament and of democracy is idle and futile."

We don't have to live in a debt based economy like we do now.

There is a reason why we don't learn the monetary/banking system in school, people would realize we are getting screwed over and take the power back.

Want to hear the funny thing, we are told we have one of the healthiest bankings systems in the world.

How so, we rob ourselves of billions and billions of dollars and give the money to bankers. Maybe healthy for the bankers.

"The promise of yesterday are the taxes of today."

Edited February 2, 2010 by maple_leafs182

M.Dancer · February 2, 2010

Why do we loan from private banks.

Why are we not loaning ...

The problem is deeper...

To quote the former President...

Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning

agnos · February 2, 2010

You see mapleleaf? you could learn a lot from dancers informative

supportive reply.

I agree that public trust should support public good.

Of course governments need to regularly encourage private

interests to take up amounts of public trust. so as to not

have too many eggs in one basket, functionally unable to

serve the public interest. This assumes private help is

needed in the first place.

Private help should always be cost analyzed rigorously

and unless its at least equal to a public expense

it should most often be turned down. (unless public

logistics are impossible and the problem is urgent)

I absolute love the quote about public financial

integrity, and would highlight the usury portion:

"... Usury, once in control, will wreck any nation."

Say it with me.... YOU ESS EHH

YOU ESS EHH

agnos.

The problem is deeper...

To quote the former President...

Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning

Wild Bill · February 2, 2010

If you trust the Post Office, then you'd LOVE government banks!

maple_leafs182 · February 2, 2010

If you trust the Post Office, then you'd LOVE government banks!

If we can't trust our government, something is wrong.

How does having private banks collect billions of dollars from us help us?

IT DOESN'T.

Why shouldn't the Canadian government collect that money and use it on goods and services to help the people.

Why are we paying for peoples private jets.

Wild Bill · February 2, 2010

If we can't trust our government, something is wrong.

News flash! Something IS wrong and has been for generations! Anyone who works closely with a government "service" soon learns that it can be as crazy as a soup sandwich!

Really! When we search for examples of cost savings and efficiencies, who ever points to a government service? How can you be so naive as to assume that having the government do it will SAVE us money??!!

Tell us the truth! If you had to ship a family gift across the country, would you feel more secure about it with the Post Office or a private courier service?

If you have no experience to give a qualified answer then please say so!

Even if you DO believe in the Post Office, the sheer change in the levels of parcels over the past few decades shows you to be virtually alone in your belief. Any business that ships parcels long since abandoned the Post Office. The only thing customers want them to use the mails for is to send the bill!

That's a fact, Jack! Don't believe me, go ahead and try it! See how many customers you keep!

xul · February 2, 2010

How does having private banks collect billions of dollars from us help us?

One reason is the same that a capitalist, if his business is big enough, has to pay managers to help him running his business.

Theoretically, if the capitalist had enough ability and energy to do everything in his business, there even would be no need to hire workers. But in reality, a single person can't do everything himself like that.

Another reason is the same that a doctor can not treat the illness of himself or even his child's in person if the illness is serious. If a doctor could treat himself, sometimes the treatment might be affected by his own emotion and might no longer be objective and correct.

For example, if the liberals trusted their money into a conservative government runned bank, how on earth could they have confidence that the government would not invest their money into some irreparable businesses just for getting votes from those voters who worked in these sectors?

Edited February 2, 2010 by xul

M.Dancer · February 2, 2010

I believe it was Goethe who mused,

The limits of my language are the Limits of my world.

I believe what he meant was, it takes a big vocabulary to have big thoughts, or in other words, if you don't have a deep word trough to go to, as the opening post shows, you ain't having deep thoughts.

Now the English language if famous for its willingness to use foreign words when those words helped us express ourselves better. We have such a plethora of loan words, if the French or the Chinese wanted to borrow a word, we would surely lend one. It is in our linguistic interest. But even so, it is important to use the words in the fashion they are used. In another thread, Leafless, who has at best an arthritic grasp of the English language wrote about people patronizing our country. Many were confused mainly because it made no sense. Even when he explained it, that patronage meant thois or that, it still made no sense because Leafless has a poor vocabulary so he has trouble expressing his thoughts, which are equally confused.

Charles Dodgson, a man famous for his liberal use of language wrote this:

"When I use a word... it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master—that's all.'

So I propose the words "Lorrow", "lorrowing" and "splending"

Why do we Lorrow from private banks.

Why are we not lorrowing directly from the Bank of Canada so all those profits go to The Bank of Canada. Since the Bank of Canada is owned by the People, all that profit from the interest would be going back to the people instead of the hands of bankers.

I agree. The question is, will they splend us the money given that splending to the public is so much riskier?

ToadBrother · February 2, 2010

If we can't trust our government, something is wrong.

How does having private banks collect billions of dollars from us help us?

IT DOESN'T.

Why shouldn't the Canadian government collect that money and use it on goods and services to help the people.

Why are we paying for peoples private jets.

Why are you so keen on turning us into Venezuela? Beyond which, of a group of people want to pool their capital and assets and lend it out at a reasonable rate of interest, why do you feel you have some sort of a right to tell them no?

Besides, the reality is that you can no better trust the government than the banks. The big meltdown in the US happened in large part because off Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, both creations of the US government whose intended purpose of giving low income people their own homes had the unintended (and now obvious) consequence of both extending large amounts of credit to people who could not afford it and encouraging (some might even say forcing) private banks to become equally moronic and irresponsible.

I'd say that pretty much blows your entire theory out of the water. But thanks for playing. Next week you can come back to explain why nationalizing the steel industry will do us all a world of good.

M.Dancer · February 2, 2010

I am afraid though it will be a plea to paternalize the steal industry...

Shady · February 2, 2010

So the country "will never get better" because it doesn't have the ability to lend itself money? :blink:

Despite the fact that it can print money. :blink:

However, I'm willing to change my mind, if an example of a glorious and prosperous country can be named, which operates under the proposed idea of this thread.

maple_leafs182 · February 2, 2010

So the country "will never get better" because it doesn't have the ability to lend itself money?

Despite the fact that it can print money.

However, I'm willing to change my mind, if an example of a glorious and prosperous country can be named, which operates under the proposed idea of this thread.

America, before 1912 and the Federal Reserve.

The colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on tea and other matters had it not been that England took away from the colonies their money, which created unemployment and dissatisfaction. The inability of colonists to get power to issue their own money permanently out of the hands of George the III and the international bankers was the PRIME reason for the Revolutionary War. - Benjamin Franklin

"The government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of government, but it is the government's greatest creative opportunity. The financing of all public enterprise, and the conduct of the treasury will become matters of practical administration. Money will cease to be master and will then become servant of humanity."- Abraham Lincoln

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.-Thomas Jefferson

The American Revolution was fought over this.

But the International Bankers regained control In 1912 or 1913 when the Federal Reserve Act was signed By then President Woodrow Wilson.

"A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

John F. Kennedy Signed Executive order 11110 giving the treasury the power to print money backed by silver, he was assassinated 5 months later and no president has used the order since.

Look at America now. The most debter nation in the world, one of the most hated, and one of the most corrupt.

Does it not make sense for us to loan from ourselves instead of private banks.

I didn't think so many people would disagree

RBC made 1 billion dollars in Q1 2009, Canada would of got that money and used it on goods and services.

How is this a bad idea.

We currently use the system we have now...obviously, look at how the world is doing economically, terrible.

So many nations are trillions or billions in debt and growing.

International Bankers have hijacked the monetary system virtually world wide.

As for wild bill, I never use the Post office, but If you don't like the way it is managed, that is a whole different story.

bush_cheney2004 · February 2, 2010

....Look at America now. The most debter nation in the world, one of the most hated, and one of the most corrupt.

...and it matters more to you than Canada. Now why is that?

maple_leafs182 · February 2, 2010

...and it matters more to you than Canada. Now why is that?

Not really, I care about both equally. This topic is about Canada's banking system.

Moonbox · February 2, 2010

Right now, Our Federal and Provincial debts interest adds up to 160 million dollars a day.

All this money goes to these private banks

Banks reap in billions of dollars annually from profits.

I'm surprised nobody has commented on the fact that this guy has absolutely no clue as to how government borrowing works.

bush_cheney2004 · February 2, 2010

Not really, I care about both equally. This topic is about Canada's banking system.

No...it's about your obsession with Ben Franklin and JFK...decidedly not Canadian! :lol:

Why do you "care" about both?

ToadBrother · February 3, 2010

No...it's about your obsession with Ben Franklin and JFK...decidedly not Canadian!

Why do you "care" about both?

I do hope you see the hypocrisy of coming up to a forum named "MapleLeafWeb" to comment on largely Canadian matters, and then getting your bun in a knot about some Canadians talking about Americans.

maple_leafs182 · February 3, 2010

No...it's about your obsession with Ben Franklin and JFK...decidedly not Canadian!

Why do you "care" about both?

It has nothing to do with some obsession.

I am just tired of seeing all the people of the world to being lied, deceived and taken advantage of everyday.

I think your country learned a valuable lesson when they fought the revolutionary war. Sadly a lesson that has been lost in time.

The people should always be in control of money, not banks.

If you guys don't believe me that Nations can be brought to their knees by banks...

America was the most prosperous nation in the world, now it is on the brink of an economic collapse sure to lay the country in ruin.

I know the governments say we are in a recovery, it is a lie.

I'm tired of being called a conspiracy theorist just because I don't agree with the government. If we always have to agree with the government, this isn't a democracy.

Reality is going to kick in soon and everything is gonna come down.

Either America will stop the stimulus and then take on the depression they caused trying to avoid the recession, or they will continue to try and spend their way out of debt, inflate their currency, other countries will eventually drop the American Dollar as the world reserve currency because they are losing too much money, the US dollar will then hyper inflate and America will have a currency crisis.

I think either way a world depression is inevitable, America is the worlds largest economy, when they fall the world economy should take a pretty good hit.

See why money must be controlled by the people.

Money is considered wealth to us, the more money you have the more power and freedoms you have. If you control the wealth of the population you control the population.

This is why it must always be in the hands of the people, not private bank(er)s.

Banker quite literally control the world.

It's sad to say but our future was bought and sold a long time ago.

I have no reason to lie about any of this, I truly think this is the most important issue in the world and please debate me if you think I am wrong.

Shady · February 3, 2010

America was the most prosperous nation in the world

Yep, and it got that way with a private banking system. It's actually government intervention in that banking system thats largely responsible for the current economic woes. Who knew that pressuring institutions into lending large amounts of money to people who didn't qualify and couldn't possibly pay it back was bad business? :rolleyes:

I have no reason to lie about any of this

Nobody's saying you're lying. You're just completely wrong.

ToadBrother · February 3, 2010

Yep, and it got that way with a private banking system. It's actually government intervention in that banking system thats largely responsible for the current economic woes. Who knew that pressuring institutions into lending large amounts of money to people who didn't qualify and couldn't possibly pay it back was bad business?

Indeed. Everyone seems to be into "kick the banker" these days, and while the bankers certainly don't deserve any sympathy, when you look at how governments encouraged this sort of behavior, and in the case of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, practically guaranteed it, it's difficult to take someone seriously who thinks that the banks are to blame, and the government should even further involve itself in the banking industry.

What needs to happen is that governments need to pull back. It's one thing to regulate, that's fine, that's what governments are there to do, to set up basic standards of conduct, to insure a certain level of solvency and to keep everything above board. But to suggest somehow that if we just get rid of private banks, those institutions that since the Venetians first essentially invented modern banking, have led to so many successful enterprises, and then deliver it into the hands of the politicians and bureaucrats who through short-sighted self-serving policies were the authors of this whole disaster would produce a superior, more financially viable, and most importantly a beneficial system is absolutely absurd.

I swear, some of the posters here must live in some alternative universe, some sort of bizarro world where up is down and black is white, and their messages somehow get caught in a dimensional vortex and make it on to web servers on our world.

punked · February 3, 2010

Yep, and it got that way with a private banking system. It's actually government intervention in that banking system thats largely responsible for the current economic woes. Who knew that pressuring institutions into lending large amounts of money to people who didn't qualify and couldn't possibly pay it back was bad business?

Please do tell us how government intervention in the Canadian Banking system has worsened ours please? :rolleyes:

You might want to look Iceland's Banking system for a complete unregulated system. Than you might want to come back here and stop acting like governments involved in banking is a bad idea. In 2001 banks were deregulated by 2009 all three of the country's major banks collapsed, two of them went under another was nationalized each Icelander is on the hook for 300,000 dollars now because the government backs those unregulated banks like in every other country in the world.

ToadBrother · February 3, 2010

Please do tell us how government intervention in the Canadian Banking system has worsened ours please?

You might want to look Iceland's Banking system for a complete unregulated system. Than you might want to come back here and stop acting like governments involved in banking is a bad idea. In 2001 banks were deregulated by 2009 all three of the country's major banks collapsed, two of them went under another was nationalized each Icelander is on the hook for 300,000 dollars now because the government backs those unregulated banks like in every other country in the world.

I don't recall anyone saying "Let's deregulate the banks!" But come on, you've got to recognize that Mac and Mae were the core of the poison pill that ended up wreaking so much havoc in the American banking and investment system. The very express purpose of both was to mandate the extending of credit to people who, sad as it is, could not afford to pay it back. They were the core of the bubble that finally burst in 2008.

Governments, regulate banks by all means, but don't play at being banks, and don't mandate banks to make irresponsible loans as part of some strange social engineering project.

punked · February 3, 2010

I don't recall anyone saying "Let's deregulate the banks!" But come on, you've got to recognize that Mac and Mae were the core of the poison pill that ended up wreaking so much havoc in the American banking and investment system. The very express purpose of both was to mandate the extending of credit to people who, sad as it is, could not afford to pay it back. They were the core of the bubble that finally burst in 2008.

Governments, regulate banks by all means, but don't play at being banks, and don't mandate banks to make irresponsible loans as part of some strange social engineering project.

I think Bush's promise of a home for every American and the policies coming from that led too it more then lending the poor was what led to the housing bubble. With Bush lowering the central interest rate to almost nothing, and banks grabbing onto that to lend to anyone and everyone regardless of credit rating (this BTW was not a force policy) it build debt to those who couldn't afford it. Honestly blaming the government intervention is just crazy when you look at what actually happened banks played a game of hot potato on purpose because it made them look good at the time.

All the experts say that it is a crazy right wing talking point. The poor didn't create the problem greed did. Almost all the losses came from loans made to middle class and upper middle class Americans. Do some research.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/09/myth-fannie-freddie/

Pretending like a bill passed in 1977 created this problem is silly guys. The same deregulation that has each and every citizen of Iceland on the hook for 300000 is to blame here. We should just thank god they didn't listen to Shady and kept many of the Regulations, we should thank God that the Canadian government had the foresight to stay even more involved in our banking system and it is healthy.

Edited February 3, 2010 by punked

maple_leafs182 · February 3, 2010

I don't recall anyone saying "Let's deregulate the banks!" But come on, you've got to recognize that Mac and Mae were the core of the poison pill that ended up wreaking so much havoc in the American banking and investment system. The very express purpose of both was to mandate the extending of credit to people who, sad as it is, could not afford to pay it back. They were the core of the bubble that finally burst in 2008.

Governments, regulate banks by all means, but don't play at being banks, and don't mandate banks to make irresponsible loans as part of some strange social engineering project.

Henry Paulson, George W. Bush's Secretary of the Treasury, former CEO of Goldman Sachs.

Timothy Geithner, Barrack Obama's Secretary of the Treasury, former President of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York

Wall Street hijacked Washington.

I know the problem was they were giving loans to people who couldn't afford to pay it back. Too much debt was the problem and now the government is encouraging people to go into more debt with government incentives and putting interest rates near zero. The government is just making the problem worse.

They should of let GM, Chrysler, AIG and whoever else fail and let capitalism work.

The only thing propping up the economy is central banks world wide flooded the market with trillions of dollars, once that money stops flowing, reality will kick in.

Money has to be in control of the people or crap like this happens.

bush_cheney2004 · February 3, 2010

It has nothing to do with some obsession.

I am just tired of seeing all the people of the world to being lied, deceived and taken advantage of everyday.

But you have yet to articulate a position that encompasses "all the people of the world", choosing to obsess on Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and The Matrix instead.

I think your country learned a valuable lesson when they fought the revolutionary war. Sadly a lesson that has been lost in time. The people should always be in control of money, not banks.

The "people" were never in control of "money", and that is not why the Revolutionary War was fought.

If you guys don't believe me that Nations can be brought to their knees by banks...

America was the most prosperous nation in the world, now it is on the brink of an economic collapse sure to lay the country in ruin.

So what? The US (and the world) already has experience with Great Depressions.

I know the governments say we are in a recovery, it is a lie.

I'm tired of being called a conspiracy theorist just because I don't agree with the government. If we always have to agree with the government, this isn't a democracy.

What do you propose instead? Revolution?

Reality is going to kick in soon and everything is gonna come down.

Either America will stop the stimulus and then take on the depression they caused trying to avoid the recession, or they will continue to try and spend their way out of debt, inflate their currency, other countries will eventually drop the American Dollar as the world reserve currency because they are losing too much money, the US dollar will then hyper inflate and America will have a currency crisis.

Nope....the US is not Argentina. Has lower debt to GDP ratios than France or Japan.

I think either way a world depression is inevitable, America is the worlds largest economy, when they fall the world economy should take a pretty good hit.

Can we watch it on our new 55 inch LED flat panels?

See why money must be controlled by the people.

Money is considered wealth to us, the more money you have the more power and freedoms you have. If you control the wealth of the population you control the population.

This is why it must always be in the hands of the people, not private bank(er)s.

Banker quite literally control the world.

No, the bankers couldn't even control Jed Clampett. Don't project your own circumstances on everybody else....that commie crap won't work.

It's sad to say but our future was bought and sold a long time ago.

...and prices have never been higher!

I have no reason to lie about any of this, I truly think this is the most important issue in the world and please debate me if you think I am wrong.

Fundamentally, you are not credible more than just plain wrong. Your references are myopic (Amerika! Amerika!) and lack historical context, namely that the very "wealth" you bemoan as threatened was generated with central banking, among other things. Your expressed fear of a "depression" signals that you really want the trappings of the status quo to continue (investment, credit, production, jobs, consumption, etc.).

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.