UFC's Lesnar berates Canadian health care...

[Guest American Woman]

Anecdotes are equally uninformative without context. You have to be willing to absorb both.

By "absorb," do you mean "accept?" One of the problems I have with the statistics your site claims is that there is no way of knowing how many of those people would have died anyway, even if they had had health care. Also, by "lack of health care," does it mean none of them had access to health care, or they did but chose not to have it? Some people who have it available choose not to have it anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, a health insurance scheme is the first step toward a health care plan for those who do not have access, at least for those who do not have either. Baby steps. What did you not like about Obama's plan?

Most people without health insurance have it available to them but choose not to buy it, either because they can't afford it or because the coverage they can afford has such a high deductible that it wouldn't cover any of their medical expenses anyway. So how does forcing people to buy what they already have available to them 'help' them in any way? How is that an improvement over our present system for them?

I find it ironic that the health care budget would include fines from people who still choose not to buy health insurance. Those people would still be without insurance, so they'd still have to pay their medical bills same as always, but they'd have the expense of a fine on top of it. That's an improvement over their present situation, how?

And if they choose to go with the cheapest, high deductible insurance to avoid the fine, they'll still have the expense of their medical bills plus the cost of insurance they aren't benefiting from. Again, where's the improvement? Seems to be quite the opposite.

Edited February 20, 2010 by American Woman

[Argus]

I have to say that he does have a couple of good points. There is no doubt whatsoever that if a person has money that the health care received in the US is FAR superior to that received in canada. It's like getting a name brand product vs. a generic product.

Please explain to me why Mydol is a better product than generic Ibuprofine which costs half as much.

The other point that is valid and perhaps more pressing is the equipment at the clinic he visited wasn't working. That is a sign of an ailing healthcare system...

So when you buy a complicated piece of technology you expect it to work 24/7 on a permanent basis without ever having a breakdown? And if you buy hundreds of them you still don't expect any of them to ever break or need maintenance?

what good is equipment that doesn't work? In the US, the system is for profit and so it's critical to a health care clinic that the equipment is in good working order or they lose the business.

Have you done research into how often CT scanners break in the US and how quickly they get repaired vs the one in Brandon?

[bloodyminded]

Please explain to me why Mydol is a better product than generic Ibuprofine which costs half as much.

Excellent point. Generic drugs are the same thing.

[Guest American Woman]

Please explain to me why Mydol is a better product than generic Ibuprofine which costs half as much.

Midol and Ibuprofen are two different medications.

Excellent point. Generic drugs are the same thing.

They aren't necessarily the same thing: Are Generic Drugs as Effective as Brand Name? - Not Always!

[bloodyminded]

They aren't necessarily the same thing: Are Generic Drugs as Effective as Brand Name? - Not Always!

Thanks. Even as I wrote my comment, I wondered if I wasn't being too free with the generalization. I should have said, "generic drugs are often the same thing."

[bush_cheney2004]

Midol and Ibuprofen are two different medications.

Indeed...Midol is a family of OTC medications marketed specifically at various female demographics and needs, using either ibuprofen or acetaminophen in conjuction with other ingredients like caffiene. Midol marketing and efficacy is so successful it is known as "a girl's best friend".

[Smallc]

The Danny Williams saga continues:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/02/23/williams-surgery023.html

[Argus]

Midol and Ibuprofen are two different medications.

The only medicinal ingredient in Midol is Iboprofine.

Edited to add that there are different types of Midol. Some use other active ingredients like acetaminophen and caffeine instead. Ie, tylenol. But generic Tylenol and Generic Aspirin (Acetaminophine and Acetylsalicylic Acid) are also available at a fraction of the price of the brand name drugs.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Argus

[Topaz]

I feel both countries have good and bad things about their healthcare. They both are going to have shortage of doctors on retirement, and nurses. The US spends more money on tech. and if Canada did that then we too could do more for Canadians. The US spends more on healthcare and is the only wealthy country not to have a univeral healthcare. I did find on info on these tow countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems#Technology

[Mr.Canada]

Who cares what some meat head thinks? Are you people really this sensitive that you put a lot of weight behind what some fighter thinks and says?

Wow.

[Dillon]

..yes...even in this thread I have described US shortcomings. Except for this:

The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now.

This whole debate about Lesner's comments is just ludicrous. He didn't berate the Canadian health care system, he tried it out and almost died--he then went to the states and was recouped to full health. Therefor he claims if he hadn't left Canada he probably would have died, and its true.

Our health care system is flawed.

[Smallc]

Yeah...some logic....

[wyly]

This whole debate about Lesner's comments is just ludicrous. He didn't berate the Canadian health care system, he tried it out and almost died--he then went to the states and was recouped to full health. Therefor he claims if he hadn't left Canada he probably would have died, and its true.

Our health care system is flawed.

so he walks around for a year with an illness his american md's didn't diagnose, he comes to Canada checks into a hospital that has an equipment failure and it's the fault of Canada's health system that he was undiagnosed for a year? that's as dumb as Lesnar...

[Guest American Woman]

.....Therefor he claims if he hadn't left Canada he probably would have died, and its true.

No, it's not. He could have left the medical facility he was at and gone somewhere else in Canada and been treated. This idea that "if he wouldn't have left Canada he probably would have died" just isn't true.

[GostHacked]

So because US doctors misdiagnosed him, and Canadian doctors properly diagnosed him, but could not provide the health care he needed, he calls it third world? What kind of doctor was he seeing that misdiagnosed him in the first place? What part of the third world was he from?

[bloodyminded]

So because US doctors misdiagnosed him, and Canadian doctors properly diagnosed him, but could not provide the health care he needed, he calls it third world? What kind of doctor was he seeing that misdiagnosed him in the first place? What part of the third world was he from?

A lot of punches to the head muddles one's thinking....

[kimmy]

A lot of punches to the head muddles one's thinking....

I've seen all of his professional fights, and I can't recall him taking any blows to the head. You might be thinking of his time as a "pro wrestler" (psst, those punches aren't real! )

Dislike his politics if you wish, but he's a bright and articulate guy who clearly has an ideological view on this issue. I don't see how it makes him any different from any number of celebrities who use their fame as a platform to sound off on issues they don't actually know much about. At least Lesnar had a personal experience to talk about, unlike a lot of celebrities talking about causes they are utterly disconnected from.

-k

[dre]

...so, here's a guy who figures this is a big hoax designed to promote future UFC events in Canada. Moronic. The events in Montreal and Vancouver are going to sell out regardless, and Lesnar won't be on either card, anyway. Further, Lesnar was already the biggest name in mixed martial arts. The UFC has lost a lot more money by having their biggest draw out of action for a full year than they would gain from riling up Canadians over healthcare.

Hey, maybe he's just a celebrity who feels like sharing his political opinions.

-k

Its a real stretch to call Lesnar the biggest name in mixed martial arts. Hes had less than a 1/2 dozen fights in a weak UFC heavyweight division again guys that weight 20 - 40 pounds less than him. Fedor, GSP, Silva... all those guys are bigger names in MMA than lesnar.

I've seen all of his professional fights, and I can't recall him taking any blows to the head.

Thats because he hasnt fought anybody yet. Carwin will probably test his chin. Fedor will detach it from his head if they fight.

Edited May 31, 2010 by dre

[dre]

Anyway this whole thread is dopey... One guy being upset about medical treatment is an utterly meaningless anecdote. You could trot out thousands of dissatisfied patients for any medical system on the planet.

If you want to compare patient satisfaction between Canada and the US then look at some of the statistics that have been compiled... not what one guys says.

[bloodyminded]

I've seen all of his professional fights, and I can't recall him taking any blows to the head. You might be thinking of his time as a "pro wrestler" (psst, those punches aren't real! )

I had thought the fact that I was joking was obvious enough.

Dislike his politics if you wish, but he's a bright and articulate guy who clearly has an ideological view on this issue. I don't see how it makes him any different from any number of celebrities who use their fame as a platform to sound off on issues they don't actually know much about. At least Lesnar had a personal experience to talk about, unlike a lot of celebrities talking about causes they are utterly disconnected from.

Well, I agree with you about celebrity pundits in general, but I wouldn't make a distinction between them and him. I too have personal anecdotes I can use to "prove" my political points...which, unlike the wise Lesnar, I abstain from using, because personal anecdotes such as his are not emblematic of the system as a whole.

He's just another big-mouthed, fanatical celebrity tool.

Edited May 31, 2010 by bloodyminded

[dre]

We really need Hacksaw Jim Duggan to weigh in on this too!

[kimmy]

Its a real stretch to call Lesnar the biggest name in mixed martial arts. Hes had less than a 1/2 dozen fights in a weak UFC heavyweight division again guys that weight 20 - 40 pounds less than him. Fedor, GSP, Silva... all those guys are bigger names in MMA than lesnar.

All those guys have better resumes than Lesnar, but pay-per-view buy-rates say Lesnar is the UFC's biggest draw, hands down. To put it in perspective: the GSP vs BJ Penn event was one of UFC's most successful ever, with nearly 1 million buys. How many buys did Lesnar's rematch with Frank Mir do? Over 1.6 million. GSP and Penn are two of the best ever and two of the biggest stars in MMA, and Lesnar vs Mir II outsold that fight by over 600,000 buys! By contrast, some of the injury-plagued cards UFC has put together this year have only drawn 400,000 buys.

If you read the message you replied to, you know I was assessing a claim made by some moron at the Toronto Star. The claim was, basically, that Lesnar's illness and the "blame Canada" angle were a big hoax intended to turn Lesnar into a bad-guy who would sell tickets when UFC came to Vancouver and Montreal.

Does that claim stand up to reason?

The figures say that Lesnar being on a card adds several hundred thousand buys. At $50 a buy, that could work out to anywhere from $20 million to $40 million per event that Lesnar misses. Lesnar's last fight was July 2009, his next fight is July of this year... he could have had 2 fights in between. Lesnar's illness could well have cost the UFC between 40 to 80 million dollars.

Would the UFC spend 40 to 80 million dollars on the theory that a "Brock hates Canadian healthcare" feud would sell tickets in Canada?

-when the UFC is already wildly popular in Canada?

-when both the Vancouver and Montreal events sold out within minutes?

-when Lesnar was never scheduled to appear at either the Vancouver or the Montreal events anyway?

Clearly not. It's an idiotic idea.

Thats because he hasnt fought anybody yet. Carwin will probably test his chin. Fedor will detach it from his head if they fight.

The reason nobody's hit Lesnar is that it's very hard to throw punches when you're on your back hanging on for dear life. Carwin will be a big challenge, because his own wrestling background might let him stay on his feet long enough to throw his sledgehammer fists a few times, and who knows what could happen if he connects.

And Fedor is completely insane!

I had thought the fact that I was joking was obvious enough.

Well, it seemed like a pretty underhanded way of dismissing the guy. Something along the lines of saying "yeah, well, California Snow kills a lot of brain-cells" next time some actor speaks out on some cause, without even actually checking if the actor has a history of drug abuse.

Well, I agree with you about celebrity pundits in general, but I wouldn't make a distinction between them and him. I too have personal anecdotes I can use to "prove" my political points...which, unlike the wise Lesnar, I abstain from using, because personal anecdotes such as his are not emblematic of the system as a whole.

He's just another big-mouthed, fanatical celebrity tool.

I'm not sure if those who've hurled venom and vitriol at Lesnar for speaking his mind on this are as as critical when Hollywood-types speaking out about their favorite causes.

Then again, I'm not sure if those hailing Lesnar's opinion are as enthusiastic when Hollywood-types cheerlead for their lefty-type causes, either.

Seems like peoples' appreciation for celebrities advocating for their favorite causes tends to be proportionate to how much they agree with the celebrity in question. Who'd-a-thunkit?

-k

[bloodyminded]

I'm not sure if those who've hurled venom and vitriol at Lesnar for speaking his mind on this are as as critical when Hollywood-types speaking out about their favorite causes.

Then again, I'm not sure if those hailing Lesnar's opinion are as enthusiastic when Hollywood-types cheerlead for their lefty-type causes, either.

Seems like peoples' appreciation for celebrities advocating for their favorite causes tends to be proportionate to how much they agree with the celebrity in question. Who'd-a-thunkit?

-k

Absolutely.

[dre]

All those guys have better resumes than Lesnar, but pay-per-view buy-rates say Lesnar is the UFC's biggest draw, hands down. To put it in perspective: the GSP vs BJ Penn event was one of UFC's most successful ever, with nearly 1 million buys. How many buys did Lesnar's rematch with Frank Mir do? Over 1.6 million. GSP and Penn are two of the best ever and two of the biggest stars in MMA, and Lesnar vs Mir II outsold that fight by over 600,000 buys! By contrast, some of the injury-plagued cards UFC has put together this year have only drawn 400,000 buys.

If you read the message you replied to, you know I was assessing a claim made by some moron at the Toronto Star. The claim was, basically, that Lesnar's illness and the "blame Canada" angle were a big hoax intended to turn Lesnar into a bad-guy who would sell tickets when UFC came to Vancouver and Montreal.

Does that claim stand up to reason?

The figures say that Lesnar being on a card adds several hundred thousand buys. At $50 a buy, that could work out to anywhere from $20 million to $40 million per event that Lesnar misses. Lesnar's last fight was July 2009, his next fight is July of this year... he could have had 2 fights in between. Lesnar's illness could well have cost the UFC between 40 to 80 million dollars.

Would the UFC spend 40 to 80 million dollars on the theory that a "Brock hates Canadian healthcare" feud would sell tickets in Canada?

-when the UFC is already wildly popular in Canada?

-when both the Vancouver and Montreal events sold out within minutes?

-when Lesnar was never scheduled to appear at either the Vancouver or the Montreal events anyway?

Clearly not. It's an idiotic idea.

The reason nobody's hit Lesnar is that it's very hard to throw punches when you're on your back hanging on for dear life. Carwin will be a big challenge, because his own wrestling background might let him stay on his feet long enough to throw his sledgehammer fists a few times, and who knows what could happen if he connects.

And Fedor is completely insane!

Well, it seemed like a pretty underhanded way of dismissing the guy. Something along the lines of saying "yeah, well, California Snow kills a lot of brain-cells" next time some actor speaks out on some cause, without even actually checking if the actor has a history of drug abuse.

I'm not sure if those who've hurled venom and vitriol at Lesnar for speaking his mind on this are as as critical when Hollywood-types speaking out about their favorite causes.

Then again, I'm not sure if those hailing Lesnar's opinion are as enthusiastic when Hollywood-types cheerlead for their lefty-type causes, either.

Seems like peoples' appreciation for celebrities advocating for their favorite causes tends to be proportionate to how much they agree with the celebrity in question. Who'd-a-thunkit?

-k

I dont buy into that theory either and didnt mean to defend it. And youre right about Lesnar being a big name as far as ticket sales and PPV goes. I just dont consider him to be a big name in MMA as far as his skill or his achievments... although hes definately a bad-ass and has potential. Hes got good wrestling and ground£ and that could take him a long way.

Your Fedor video was great

As for the thread itself... its really just ridiculous. Not because Lesnars opinion specifical is unworthy... but just because its a meaningless anecdote. You could put together a virtually endless parade of people who had bad experiences no matter which healthcare system or country youre talking about.

I'm not sure if those who've hurled venom and vitriol at Lesnar for speaking his mind on this are as as critical when Hollywood-types speaking out about their favorite causes.

I dont have a problem with him or anyone else speaking their mind. But no matter WHO it is the rantings of one disgruntled person are totally irrelevent when judging any healthcare system as a whole. It just doesnt matter what he has to say. If one was interested in comparing patient satisfaction in general between Canada and other countries then theres lots of data out there and Canada does quite well.

Edited June 1, 2010 by dre

[Guest American Woman]

So my daughter's in Canada. She left with a pretty major medical problem hanging over her head. She's visiting her BF's sister and her family, so I told her that the sister should be able to hook her up with medical care should she need it. Her BF said, "with free medical care?" to which I said that would be nice, haha, but no, just medical care. To which he responded, most likely not, since the wait times are ridiculous. Not exactly comforting, yet based on his sister's and her family's experience. Just thought I'd throw that out there since my daughter got immediate medical care in the U.S. before she left, but at her cost.