Army Guy Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 I read the following article about some of the terrorist involved in Canada's home grown terrorist net work, the Toronto 18...and was some what disappionted, for a lot of reasons, the length of the sentences handed out, i mean even the judge explains the seriousness of the crime then hands out somewhat easy sentences...and the piont that always drives me a 2 for one on time already served awaiting trail....very disappionting...... Some of the lesser characters involved in this plot, will be out of prison very shortly...leaves me shaking my head... The article also compares Canada's sentneces to those handed out in the US...a major difference here, actually a shocking difference, to the other extereme...even harsh ...But maybe they want to set the example , and make it very clear, that these types of crimes are not tolerated....but like i said they are harsh, perhaps Canada could really look into this portion of it's justice system and revise it...find some middle ground. I guess what really disappionted me is how these findings will reflect on future cases,such young Mr khadrs, other Terrorist cases waiting in the wings....shit we just might owe young Mr Khadr time back, for his stay in prison... So my question i ask my self is this one, if terrorist crimes carry such minimal sentences, are they even worth the time and effort our country puts into combating them...I've watched more than a few of my comrads being slowly loaded onto the back of a herc, in flag drapped coffins, thinking to myself as the procession slowly filed by me, with tears streaming down my face, Yes it's worth it, for the Afghan people , for Canadians damn right it's worth it.... Now this message comes out Our justice system has spoken...a life sentence for a ring leader, which really means 9 to 10 years served...and i remember those ramp cerimonies , those young soldiers lives cut short, battling something i thought our country took seriously "the War on terrorism"...i also look at all those wounded soldiers lifes changed forever...not 9 years but for a real life sentence...for the rest of thier lifes...(who are also in the news today battling our government for changes to our care policies....or lack of )it does not seem fair.. My linkwww.thestar.com/ Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
ToadBrother Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 Now this message comes out Our justice system has spoken...a life sentence for a ring leader, which really means 9 to 10 years served...and i remember those ramp cerimonies , those young soldiers lives cut short, battling something i thought our country took seriously "the War on terrorism"...i also look at all those wounded soldiers lifes changed forever...not 9 years but for a real life sentence...for the rest of thier lifes...(who are also in the news today battling our government for changes to our care policies....or lack of )it does not seem fair.. My linkwww.thestar.com/ There's no denying the sentences are too short. I still believe there's certain crimes; first degree murder, domestic terrorism, treason and the like, where life mean life, without chance of parole. There's no reason to let the ringleaders out of jail, ever. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 Under 10 years for trying to murder 1000s of Canadians. I don't blame AG for being pissed. I'm pissed-off, too. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
wyly Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) I agree I don't understand the 2 for 1 reasoning...if found guilty 1 for 1 is fair... Khadr-he hasn't had a trial and you've convicted him, there are many cases now of Canadians where they have been found to be innocent after spending years in prison on better evidence than faces Khadr, Canadian values include our justice system is what you're defending...I've seen some of the evidence against him it's very flimsy and highly improbable he could have done did what he's been accused of, plus there's the whole child soldier issue... a crime is a crime regardless of the motivation, whether it's attempted murder or murder you can't one make more heinous than the other they have to be judged the same otherwise our justice system based on equality is put at risk... Edited January 28, 2010 by Charles Anthony deleted re-copied Opening Post Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
William Ashley Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) I read the following article about some of the terrorist involved in Canada's home grown terrorist net They are would be coulda been terrorists. Personally playing paint ball and studying Jihad isn't terrorism. If you actually know the real story you'd consider it to be a travesty that so many non criminals had been held without trial for so long. The fact no terrorist act occured is one of them, well if I planned to murder an innocent person does this make me liable to prison. OK, so is war planning suddently a criminal offence. Say that to military institutions or war gamers around the world. What about that teen who reads about pipe bombs and doesn't kill someone. Are they suddently terrorists because they learned about it? Suddently scenarios depicting bad guys and good guys arn't allowed cause someone has to play the bad guys. This case is a bs demonstration of how ill the justice system is. People have a right to speedy trial 4 years in Jail awaiting trial ain't speedy. It is a disgust that this travesty of justice occured. It wasn't terrorism, no terrorist act occured! Paint ball and studying the bible ain't terrorism. The fact people were held for 4 years without trial shows the problem here. Being someone who has plea bargained before, by that time it wasn't about "the truth" it was about the fact I can be let out of jail now, or I have to wait another 6 months and still not be given a fair trial. Most people would admit it and get out of jail, rather than risk a trial with no gaurentees of justice being served in a justice system that doesn't always side with the good guy or the one telling the truth. There is a clear difference between opinion and activity and criminal occurence. Very few of the 18 people were criminally minded according to the facts, the others just learned about it. Someone who doesn't commit or intend to commit a crime but learns how to commit the crime is not a criminal. My posts are being heavily edited by a third party to switch words around and insert typos. Edited January 20, 2010 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
maple_leafs182 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 So my question i ask my self is this one, if terrorist crimes carry such minimal sentences, are they even worth the time and effort our country puts into combating them...I've watched more than a few of my comrads being slowly loaded onto the back of a herc, in flag drapped coffins, thinking to myself as the procession slowly filed by me, with tears streaming down my face, Yes it's worth it, for the Afghan people , for Canadians damn right it's worth it.... Now this message comes out Our justice system has spoken...a life sentence for a ring leader, which really means 9 to 10 years served...and i remember those ramp cerimonies , those young soldiers lives cut short, battling something i thought our country took seriously "the War on terrorism"...i also look at all those wounded soldiers lifes changed forever...not 9 years but for a real life sentence...for the rest of thier lifes...(who are also in the news today battling our government for changes to our care policies....or lack of )it does not seem fair.. Are you sure it's worth it, who are you really fighting for, Canadians or the Canadian government? I know many Canadians who do not support the war in Afghanistan or the War on Terrorism in general, me being one of them. I don't think war or increasing penalties/sentences will solve the problem of terrorism, if anything we are increasing the likely hood of a terrorist attack occurring by starting wars in their homeland. We have to look at what motivates a terrorist to be a terrorist. Why do they want to hurt Americans or Canadians or whoever. Helen Thomas asks security chief John Brennan about what motivates the terrorists and he kept giving non answers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1pURIukrjw&feature=player_embedded We should be listening to what the terrorist are saying, they usually say its because of our foreign policy, we are over their bombing and starting wars. Do we not expect retaliation? Quote │ _______ [███STOP███]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ :::::::--------------Conservatives beleive ▄▅█FUNDING THIS█▅▄▃▂- - - - - --- -- -- -- -------- Liberals lie I██████████████████] ...◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙'(='.'=)' ⊙
wyly Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 They are would be coulda been terrorists. Personally playing paint ball and studying Jihad isn't terrorism. If you actually know the real story you'd consider it to be a travesty that so many non criminals had been held without trial for so long. The fact no terrorist act occured is one of them, well if I planned to murder an innocent person does this make me liable to prison. OK, so is war planning suddently a criminal offence. Say that to military institutions or war gamers around the world. What about that teen who reads about pipe bombs and doesn't kill someone. Are they suddently terrorists because they learned about it? Suddently scenarios depicting bad guys and good guys arn't allowed cause someone has to play the bad guys. This case is a bs demonstration of how ill the justice system is. People have a right to speedy trial 4 years in Jail awaiting trial ain't speedy. It is a disgust that this travesty of justice occured. It wasn't terrorism, no terrorist act occured! Paint ball and studying the bible ain't terrorism. The fact people were held for 4 years without trial shows the problem here. Being someone who has plea bargained before, by that time it wasn't about "the truth" it was about the fact I can be let out of jail now, or I have to wait another 6 months and still not be given a fair trial. Most people would admit it and get out of jail, rather than risk a trial with no gaurentees of justice being served in a justice system that doesn't always side with the good guy or the one telling the truth. There is a clear difference between opinion and activity and criminal occurence. Very few of the 18 people were criminally minded according to the facts, the others just learned about it. Someone who doesn't commit or intend to commit a crime but learns how to commit the crime is not a criminal. My posts are being heavily edited by a third party to switch words around and insert typos. I don't think collecting tons of fertilzer was meant for their personal gardening projects... they may have been mislead, deluded, stupid young f***s but they were planning to kill people and for that they need to be put in the cooler for a while so they can think over their twisted ideals... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
William Ashley Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) I don't think collecting tons of fertilzer was meant for their personal gardening projects... On a farm? Tell that to farmers. They oould have ordered dynamite if they wanted to. Also I highly doubt the teenagers activly coordinated an attack. The young ones only played paintball and shared their beleifs. they may have been mislead, deluded, stupid young f***s but they were planning to kill people Who were they planning on killing and where does that information come from? twisted ideals... Canadians have the right to conscience and beleif, it is a charter right. As long as they arn't hurting other people, they can think whatever the hell they'd like to. You got to be kidding me if no white jerk has ever thought about killing a muslim, I bet some people joined the military to do that. There is a difference between activity and crime. I do not beleive the crowns office because I have been aware of them lying previously. Something other than rhetoric from a crown attorney must exist to convince me what really happened, or is likely to have happened. I consider you a sheep for blindly listening to a crowns disclosure as evidence of something. As stated having personally heard them ly about facts they are "compulsive liars" to me, not sources of valid information. Part of the issue is the role of the police in coordinating and training for the attack. It was basically a form of entrapment. Two of the police agents actively helped coordinate and plan the attacks, if that ain't a form of entrapment or fabricating a crime I don't know what is. The police should of shut things down immediately, not coaxed them and help them create the situation. Then a bunch of teens get arrested because the police got people to plan an attack by having active agents help and develope it. Give me a break. Did the FBI help plan 911? What would americans think of that? The fact one of the "people who helped plan the would be event is under payroll by the RCMP is issued at best. There are some facts you might not be aware of or never be aware of in this "case of terrorism" but I am disgusted by the government in its handling of everything. I'm not so disgusted that I plan to chop off the PMs head but it would be unfortunate if I was seen as a terrorist sympathizer if someone else did and I wasn't upset with that fact. 200 police officers watching the training of teens in something deemed a terrorist training camp has me wonder on the intent of the police involved. You'd think if youth were engaged in illegal training activities, or their agent was the one training them, they might request their agent NOT train the people to conduct terrorist activities. You have to see statements such as: "We're not officially al-Qaida but we share their principles and methods around a campfire." and the humor involved. "During the filming, the leader kept trying to effect giggles from the adolescents, who were trying "to look tough" for the "mock" video." These were beheadings to be done with hunting knives? The situation was a media sensation and contained little if any actual crimes other than those done by- none other than government agents. It was a media stunt by the government, or specific parts of the government. Which isn't unique to this event. Since when is "swimming, hiking and playing with inflatable watercraft, while discussing shared plans for school and marriage terrorism? This is what a prosecution witness stated occured. National Security and police agents at all levels were aware of the "cell" over a year before arrests were made (and there is a good reason for that). They clearly had the capacity to give a warning of them being monitored well in advance to the requirement for arrests, or notified them their activities were "deemed to be" leading to criminal or national security threats. Rather than let the movement to grow. A judge must of heard evidence if a search warrant for all that information was obtained, nearly a year before, or all evidence would be invalid. The two scenarios either 1. state the police helped develope the sensation, OR all the "earlier"things wern't deemed to be substantial enough for an arrest warrant of anyone involved. Clearly in both cases this wasn't public policing it was done in a way to allow things to develope rather than diffuse. In reality the reason why this hasn't gone to trial is that there is no evidence other than circumstantial evidence -the fertilizer on a farm, or what its purpose of, still doesn't substantiate the knowledge or intent of 18 people when only 1 ordered the material. While 1 or 2 people may have harboured some type of intent it is doubtful that the adolencents harboured criminal intent by playing paintball. While the notion is nice, the actual situation is something totally different. Also you have to understand that the situation was fueld by government agents, and sanctioned by the police for over a year. 4 years without going to trial is not "right to a speedy trial" Lesser charges should outright be dropped due to the unreasonable delay alone. I find it appalling that people support totalitarian police state functions within government. It is governments like that that turn terrorists into freedom fighters. 4 years without trial is not justice regardless of what happened. Edited January 20, 2010 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
Oleg Bach Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 Ultimately a terroist by western definition is any person that has in anyway a negative effect on the one tenth of one percent of the people who control the wealth in the world. Any person that irritates or causes harm to a continueing unsustainable bottom line. OR it's a person or orgainzation that refuses to comply to the dominating will of a few corporate heads that control and maniplate governments - and most of these people are racists bastards..that's how they justify stomping their big boot on the fingers of the poor and useless humans...not that I agree with the terrorists or those that oppress - Pay me and I will stop being so terrible..ha! Quote
noahbody Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 The fact no terrorist act occured is one of them, well if I planned to murder an innocent person does this make me liable to prison. Of course it does. Quote
William Ashley Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) Of course it does. You are from the thought police school obviously. I favor a free open and democratic country - not a government where big brother says what we can and cannot have access to in terms of forms of information and nature of information. Planning and carrying out an act are two seperate things. Intent to carry out a planned attack is the trigger, any breach of civil rights before that point is a breach of civil liberties. Frankly just planning to kill someone doesn't mean I intend to do it. Havn't you ever wondered how to make bread or horseshoes, and researched it first? Clearly you don't favor an informed society. Fact is you may never make bread, and may be even less likely to make horseshoes. * I do feel governments should make press releases of accurate information to be made available to the public, but that is as far as information control should go for the federal government. The government shouldn't censure knowledge, we don't need an ingorant population. I don't support that. Regardless of what you think happened you don't know, that is why the standard of upholding human rights and civil liberties should always be first upheld. Eg. right to a speedy trial, discolure of the nature of the offence against them, re: crown disclosure of the case they are being tried in, etc.. the same rights all citizens should be accorded. Monitoring or communicating for facilitation of resolution of potential breaches of law "public policing" is something that is much better than outright breach of civil liberties even if still distasteful. Fact is wanting to kill someone doesn't make you a murderor, and you shouldn't be treated like one if you arn't. If you disagree with this, then that is unfortunate, as if this wern't the case, I'd be a murderor long ago, personally though I have morals that I uphold. Fact is planning to murder someone you don't want to kill doesn't make you a murderor either. What makes you a murderor is carrying out the constituent acts of murder. Edited January 20, 2010 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
DogOnPorch Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 1 for 1 is fair... Fair would be strapping said terrorist to his own fertilizer bomb then testing his remote detonation device. Now how does this thing work?? Hmmm...I'll try this phone number.KABOOM!! Hey it did work, afterall. Cool. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
William Ashley Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) Fair would be strapping said terrorist to his own fertilizer bomb then testing his remote detonation device. Fair would be doing it in a planned demolition that would otherwise cost taxpayer dollars to aquire the fertalizer for. * although I still think consent should be required for the death penalty, and it should be done in a way that doesn't cost the tax payers money re: china 1 bullet policy. A high building or bridge or platform would be better than the firing squad though saves the cost of the bullet. Edited January 20, 2010 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
DogOnPorch Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 Fair would be doing it in a planned demolition that would otherwise cost taxpayer dollars to aquire the fertalizer for. Great idea. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Oleg Bach Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 Great idea. Not connected to the above quote what so ever it might be a good idea if our establishment that controls our judicary would stop releasing potential murderers and full fledged killers - that destablize our national bliss. The term terrorist should not be banted about untill our establishment stops sending out surrogate terrorists in the form I mentioned - recently a judge set free three killers that attempted to kill an anti-gang activist...the three finished the job upon release. This is terrible and it is terrifying that we have either deviates or a group of totally inept officals sitting on the bench. Terrorism is anything that motivates the population though fear...and setting these monsters lose to kill does stimulate fear and terror. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 20, 2010 Report Posted January 20, 2010 Not connected to the above quote what so ever it might be a good idea if our establishment that controls our judicary would stop releasing potential murderers and full fledged killers - that destablize our national bliss. The term terrorist should not be banted about untill our establishment stops sending out surrogate terrorists in the form I mentioned - recently a judge set free three killers that attempted to kill an anti-gang activist...the three finished the job upon release. This is terrible and it is terrifying that we have either deviates or a group of totally inept officals sitting on the bench. Terrorism is anything that motivates the population though fear...and setting these monsters lose to kill does stimulate fear and terror. It's not too late to move to Yemen. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Topaz Posted January 21, 2010 Report Posted January 21, 2010 The days of believing one's government and everything they said is passed. One should always question the reasons for war, why are we there and how/when will we get out. I do believe that since we went into Afghanistan that we will have to live with looking over our shoulders for many generations to come. I, also, believe the US will have greater fears and problems with the people of the Middle-East for a long time. I, also, don't think that al Qaeda and the Taliban woke up one morning and said lets have a Holy war with the West, lets get some of our people killed, get the US to invaded us and ruin the country.The West and its allies can't be the good guys all the time and Foreign policies have brought these ugly wars to the world. No one WINS in war and after the actual fighting has stop,and our guys come home, we'll still be looking over our shoulders, some more than others. What the 18 did is wrong but so is what drove them to it and the West has to take some responsibility for it. Quote
Griz Posted January 21, 2010 Report Posted January 21, 2010 It's not too late to move to Yemen. Ship the whole damn works of you land-squattin'-terrorizers back to Europe! Quote
Oleg Bach Posted January 21, 2010 Report Posted January 21, 2010 It's not too late to move to Yemen. Move me to Israel or Yemen and I would have those idiots educated and on to the path of peace and civility in no time at all - where as our powerful men that run our nation - are a hard nut to crack and are like old dogs not capable of learning a new trick. This is a very important point - our establishment and their political lackies are just plain rude. They have no problems terrorising a third world nation economially - but get into a huff when some goat hearder straps on a bomb in protest..You are all frinking terrorists in my books and if I could all would be confined - those at the top the economic heap and those a holes at the bottom wearing shoes made out of explosives...the whole thing is a waste of resourses and a sad joke..Once we are out of Afghanistan - nothing will have changed other than a few hundred dead Canadain service men and fifty thousand dead bearded opium growing goat herders...there is no honesty in the world and there are no good guys. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Posted January 21, 2010 ...Once we are out of Afghanistan - nothing will have changed other than a few hundred dead Canadain service men and fifty thousand dead bearded opium growing goat herders...there is no honesty in the world and there are no good guys. Yea, but I'll bet that a lot of abused goats will be thankful! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ToadBrother Posted January 21, 2010 Report Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) You are from the thought police school obviously. I favor a free open and democratic country - not a government where big brother says what we can and cannot have access to in terms of forms of information and nature of information. Planning and carrying out an act are two seperate things. Intent to carry out a planned attack is the trigger, any breach of civil rights before that point is a breach of civil liberties. Frankly just planning to kill someone doesn't mean I intend to do it. Havn't you ever wondered how to make bread or horseshoes, and researched it first? Clearly you don't favor an informed society. What the hell do you sniff? Of course planning to kill people is an offense, just like inciting a riot is an offense. Are you seriously saying the only point at which someone should be punished is after the murder or attempted murder? How about hiring a hitman? Are you seriously advocating that no one be charged until the hitman actually tries to commit the act? Where do guys like you come from? I mean, what planet do you live on where it's a civil liberty to plot murders of others, whether in small or large numbers. It certainly has never ever ever ever been a right in our system, or in any other system that I'm aware of. In most legal systems based off the English Common and Criminal Law there is the notion of an ichoate offense, that is planning to commit an offense. If you plan to commit a crime, whatever that crime is, you have commited an inchoate offense. You are not permitted to plan or plot an illegal activity. And it's a good thing, because I'd rather bust the guy carrying the dynamite in his vest before he lights the fuse, because it's pretty pointless busting him after the fact. Edited January 21, 2010 by ToadBrother Quote
Muddy Posted January 21, 2010 Report Posted January 21, 2010 Any Canadian who plans to fight for the enemy of our country and military should be tried for treason and if found guilty should be incarcerated for the remainder of their lives.This is a war we are involved in. Our fine young soldiers are in harms way. Canadian citizenship should be taken seriously either if your an immigrant or born here. You can only serve one country. Quote
Army Guy Posted January 21, 2010 Author Report Posted January 21, 2010 Khadr-he hasn't had a trial and you've convicted him, there are many cases now of Canadians where they have been found to be innocent after spending years in prison on better evidence than faces Khadr, Canadian values include our justice system is what you're defending...I've seen some of the evidence against him it's very flimsy and highly improbable he could have done did what he's been accused of, plus there's the whole child soldier issue... I'll admit, i think he's guilty, but that was not intent of this post. Rather than piont out that this trail has set a precedence for sentencing, If he is found guilty, then there is a good chance he will be released a free man, for time already served... I disagree with your comment that our justice system includes our values which is what we are defending. I know i'm opening up another can of worms here that i may regret later, but i don't think todays justice system reflects our values very well at all. And while it may be a part of what Canada is, i and many others think our justice system needs alot of work to be brought in line with our core values. As for the evidence i've said this a thousand times, it is almost impossable to have the same standards of evidence on the battlefield , as we have here in Canada, where crime scenes are cordoned off, specialist brought in to collect and process evidence....on the battlefield your lucky to get a few pictures, gathering up evidence, is not a priority. Security, and living to fight another day is...Failing to take into account these will be a mistake for our justice system here.... a crime is a crime regardless of the motivation, whether it's attempted murder or murder you can't one make more heinous than the other they have to be judged the same otherwise our justice system based on equality is put at risk I disagree, and so does our justice system, or there would not have been the distinct difference between say murder, and attemted murder, or the other various degrees of taking a life...All crime is not equal nor should it be punished equally... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted January 21, 2010 Author Report Posted January 21, 2010 They are would be coulda been terrorists. Personally playing paint ball and studying Jihad isn't terrorism. If you actually know the real story you'd consider it to be a travesty that so many non criminals had been held without trial for so long. You are aware that he and the others have confessed,freely admitted his plans and his guilt....and playing paint ball and studing where not even mentioned....SO what real story are you talking about... My posts are being heavily edited by a third party to switch words around and insert typos. I think this explains alot. please thank your MOM for the inventive posts. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Muddy Posted January 21, 2010 Report Posted January 21, 2010 It is pretty hard to defend Khadr. What was a Canadian doing on a battlefield in Afganistan fighting our own forces. I know for you Yank haters it was just American soldiers ,but they could have just as well been fellow Canadians. It did not help much that his Mother and Sister condemned him with their anti Canadian views while bringing their wounded boy home to get free health care. Treason is the only way I can feel about this family. Our soldiers are in harms way doing our bidding. They will on the most part go willingly and from speaking to them ,they believe they are helping the downtrodden mass` of Afganistan from a life of terror and extreme Islam. We do not need to show leniency to home grown treachery. Lock them up for a very long time. Fifty years ago when I was not so leniant, kind hearted and benevlent I would have called for their necks to be stretched. Quote
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