Will proroguing Parliament hurt the Tories' political success?

[Oleg Bach]

Tactics smacktics! I don't care about how shrewd a political leader is - or how skillfully deceptive...I want an honest one and to brag that we have a great tactician in Harper is not a positive thing. Why is it that these lawyers think that lieing is good for them and keeps them in power - yet if we the common person lies, we are punished- It reminds me of the power imbalance within the Catholic church and their trusting tradition of CONFESSION...The village priest knows all of your buisness and you know nothing of his.

[Wild Bill]

is the latest collective protest action taken by political scientists, legal scholars and university philosophers against the Harper Conservative Perogy... as you say, "Liberal (desperate) politics?

This is actually funny! To support your point you are using the most conceited groups in our society that are respected the least, even distrusted, by the common man.

[Oleg Bach]

Which brings me to say - We are conditioned and programmed to tell the truth always from the time we are children to adulthood and even into old age....YET - those that seek power - have one rule and one rule only in order to maintain and hoard that power..It is to lie...and WE like trusting little sheep actually give these leaders the benefit of the doubt...Will we ever mature to the level where we play tit for tat...respect only those that respect us..It's time that the average Canadian lie about everything from here on in - Let them know how it feels to be abused. Politial leaders and their associates actually believe that they are so privledged that they do not owe us empowerment, the truth or any real respect...I for one only respect those that respect and empower me - It's the real social contract - why would I assist someone with the truth and with loyality when they don't give a damn about me? We are a federation of fools..It's time to be a nation...a family!

[Keepitsimple]

Harper perogy (x2) is certainly (desperate) politics... the kind of Harper Conservative desperation that sets the precedent for minority governments to wantonly evade confidence votes or to skirt accountability. The real desperation shows in Harper's latest response to the significant and growing Canadian public outrage... Harper actually had the gall to suggest in an interview with Business News Network, that market stability is bettered with the perogy move - that minority government, in itself, is perceived by markets as unstable:

is the latest collective protest action taken by political scientists, legal scholars and university philosophers against the Harper Conservative Perogy... as you say, "Liberal (desperate) politics?

Well, a new budget will be put forward at the beginning of March....and if Harper is desperate and they have him on the run.....if the public really is outraged....and Harper is showing no respect for Parliament.....and the Conservatives are an "affront to democracy".....and Canadians are mad as hell over the detainee issue and Harper's evading accountability.....then the opposition can vote to bring down the government. If they really think that Canadians are outraged and sick of Harper, then they owe it to Canadians to give them a chance at an alternative. It's as simple as that - democracy in action.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[Oleg Bach]

This is actually funny! To support your point you are using the most conceited groups in our society that are respected the least, even distrusted, by the common man.

Lawyers are simply a club of acedemics who take the leap and the oath never to ever tell the truth ever again and to conspire against the common man. THEN once these who join these exclusive black robed cults...run for office because they need some inside guys to assist in their self serving and on going conspiracy.

[Shakeyhands]

This is actually funny! To support your point you are using the most conceited groups in our society that are respected the least, even distrusted, by the common man.

wow.... issues much?

[August1991]

is the latest collective protest action taken by political scientists, legal scholars and university philosophers against the Harper Conservative Perogy... as you say, "Liberal (desperate) politics?

Uh, yes.

As you and other anti-Harperites repeat endlessly Waldo, we live in a democracy. Heaven forbid that we live in a society where "political scientists, legal scholars and university philosophers" and a few hundred thousand people in a Facebook group decide who has power.

[Keepitsimple]

is the latest collective protest action taken by political scientists, legal scholars and university philosophers against the Harper Conservative Perogy... as you say, "Liberal (desperate) politics?

Interesting how these courageous souls decided not to protest the "Coalition Proroguation".....where were they then? Where was their outrage then?

.......and if you think that legal "scholars" and university "philosophers" aren't almost exclusively Liberals, you're dreaming. They are part of the "elite" and chattering class - collectively and commonly referred to as the "Liberal Elite".

It happens that Canadians were outraged at the thought of the Coalition....so these high-brows knew they'd be on the wrong side of that particular issue.....but now, public opinion shows some distaste for proroguation - so out of the closet they come...in all their pompous and self-righteous glory.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[ToadBrother]

On the contrary, you have no understanding of Canadian history, French or English. You don't know about the Patriots or those who died abroad.

Ordinary Canadians will take action, when it matters. For the moment, this is merely Liberal (desperate) politics.

====

(I feel sick making this post. ToadBrother is an apparent nationalist of a "country" whose history s/he doesn't even know.) I have struggled to learn the English language and yet I take no pride in speaking English. I am not a Nationalist. To me, English Canadian nationalists have an odor of failure.

Translation: I have no knowledge of any precedent for the 2008 prorogation.

I know a helluva lot more about Westminster history than you do, pal, and a helluva lot more appreciation for how it's supposed to work. Confidence votes are the very core of the system, the only meaningful check we've had for about two centuries on the powers of the Cabinet.

Keep the apologetics up. Your making excuses for a coward.

[ToadBrother]

Interesting how these courageous souls decided not to protest the "Coalition Proroguation".....where were they then? Where was their outrage then?

Could you tell me where the Coalition was going to prorogue anything? I mean, I was no great supporter of these guys, but it strikes me that clear Tory astroturfers like yourself just make facts up, like how evading the will of Parliament is just par for the course in our governing system.

[eyeball]

Well, a new budget will be put forward at the beginning of March....and if Harper is desperate and they have him on the run.....if the public really is outraged....and Harper is showing no respect for Parliament.....and the Conservatives are an "affront to democracy".....and Canadians are mad as hell over the detainee issue and Harper's evading accountability.....then the opposition can vote to bring down the government. If they really think that Canadians are outraged and sick of Harper, then they owe it to Canadians to give them a chance at an alternative. It's as simple as that - democracy in action.

Can't argue with this.

Bring it on.

[Mr.Canada]

No, it will not hurt the Tories at all. The people making the noise are people in the urban centres which are Liberal/Socialist seats, no one else cares.

In my riding 60% voted Conservative last election and I don't see this changing where I live.

[waldo]

Ordinary Canadians will take action, when it matters. For the moment, this is merely Liberal (desperate) politics.

Harper perogy (x2) is certainly (desperate) politics... the kind of Harper Conservative desperation that sets the precedent for minority governments to wantonly evade confidence votes or to skirt accountability. The real desperation shows in Harper's latest response to the significant and growing Canadian public outrage... Harper actually had the gall to suggest in an interview with Business News Network, that market stability is bettered with the perogy move - that minority government, in itself, is perceived by markets as unstable:

In fact, it is Parliament in a minority situation that is perceived by markets as unstable... The games begin when Parliament returns... The government can take our time now to do the important work to prepare the economic agenda ahead

is the Economist's criticism of the Harper Conservatives perogy precedent... as you say, "Liberal (desperate) politics?

I seem to recall the Conservatives (particularly the Blogging Tories) really pumping up the 2008 Facebook group/numbers that rallied "against the Coalition". In that regard, is the 165K (and counting) Facebook group against the latest Harper Conservative Perogy... as you say, "Liberal (desperate) politics?

is the latest collective protest action taken by political scientists, legal scholars and university philosophers against the Harper Conservative Perogy... as you say, "Liberal (desperate) politics?

This is actually funny! To support your point you are using the most conceited groups in our society that are respected the least, even distrusted, by the common man.

yes, yes, Wild Bill... we all know the Conservative disdain for academia - for anyone with education... but, I gave you a few examples to chew on. Apparently, you must not think the scathing Economist review is funny... nor the Facebook group, which has grown another 5000 members, now at 170K - and counting. Given your reply suggests you favour the "common man" view of the Harper Conservative perogy move, I note you also don't comment on the Facebook group, at all - whatsoever... interesting.

[ToadBrother]

No, it will not hurt the Tories at all. The people making the noise are people in the urban centres which are Liberal/Socialist seats, no one else cares.

I live in a rural area, and my riding is, geographically speaking, overwhelmingly rural or outright wild country. I'm not a Liberal or a Socialist, and yet I'm against this.

I guess there are two tactics at work:

1. Deny there is any legitimate reason to be upset (it's just prorogation, PMs do it all the time), even if its pointed out that the last two prorogations are hardly typical of Parliament for at least a hundred years.

2. Assert that no one cares, except some group that tidily turns out to be the people that you are ideologically opposed to.

I wonder, is any Tory supporter or astroturfer here even willing to debate these last two prorogations on their own merits, or is it just going to be a dogmatic game of cat and mouse?

[madmax]

.....nor the Facebook group, which has grown another 5000 members, now at 170K - and counting. Given your reply suggests you favour the "common man" view of the Harper Conservative perogy move, I note you also don't comment on the Facebook group, at all - whatsoever... interesting.

In order to make a story go away, the Conservatives have adopted a storyline that won't go away. They have moved the puck into their own endzone and people are paying attention. I wouldn't have mentioned this 24 hours ago, but it looks like there is a chance for the Liberals to pick up the puck. Once the opposition has the puck, it will be up to them to score.

But the fact that Neither Harper, his ministers, nor former strategists can stay on message and their diversions and reasons are in multiples per day suggests that the ship is adrift.

It is also apparent that Harper has let the Liberals back in the game while taking every joe public who voted for them and give them reason to ask a simple question. "WHY".

After 2 weeks the Harper government is struggling to support the simplist message.

All swing seats are back in play and the majority has been thrown away until Harper can move the puck back into the Neutral zone. But I see alot of checking happening and most of it coming from the general public. A governments worst enemy when angry and awoken.

As for facebook groups.

I have found a couple that support proroguement.

4 people on one.

313 people on the other.

There is no balance on the Conservative side and this is a lopsided fight. Conservative spin doctors are crapping their pants and the spinners are pretty busy doing damage control and wordsmithery in the comments section. But it doesn't appear to be working.

The silent majority is starting to take a good hard look at the Conservatives.

Can Harper Change the Channel again?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

He can, but he won't. This is Steve's game, and we have no idea what is really going on. The man is not brain dead, he has at least a designed end game if not a planned tactical program to get there. Iggy won't get there this easy.

[ToadBrother]

He can, but he won't. This is Steve's game, and we have no idea what is really going on. The man is not brain dead, he has at least a designed end game if not a planned tactical program to get there. Iggy won't get there this easy.

Well, everything depends on whether the Liberals can manage the message. It's pretty clear the NDP want the extra holiday, so they won't be coming to his aid at the end of January, but then again that might not be a bad thing. This will reduce the specter of the Coalition. If Iggy and the Liberals can continue to effectively hammer the Tories (and not just endlessly repeat themselves like they did a few months ago) then they have a chance of not only maintaining the apparently unpopularity of the prorogation and long recess, but of also making themselves look like a government in waiting. That's probably the single biggest problem Iggy has had so far, he just hasn't portrayed himself as Prime Minister material. I suspect lots of people are not overly fond of Harper, but they may be viewing the field as rather limited in choices.

At the end of the day, Harper's gambit is that time's on his side, and that if the electorate is unhappy about the prorogation, that it will have evaporated by February, and the feel-good nature of the Olympics will make everyone forget what happened. And who knows, he may be right. Gambling on the apathy of the electorate seems to be a rather successful strategy in the Western world these days.

[William Ashley]

No, it will not hurt the Tories at all. The people making the noise are people in the urban centres which are Liberal/Socialist seats, no one else cares.

In my riding 60% voted Conservative last election and I don't see this changing where I live.

80% of the population lives in urban areas... only 20% of the population is in rural areas.

For my two residencial ridings.. one was tory by 17 or so votes in the last election and the other is NDP.. I can only guess the reason for the partial shift is disenfranchising students of their vote by registration and ID requirements.

Oddly the rural area I live in NDP...

Edited January 12, 2010 by William Ashley

[madmax]

Well, everything depends on whether the Liberals can manage the message.

Correct.

It's pretty clear the NDP want the extra holiday,

That could turn into LPC talking points. I don't think the LPC should start a two front attack. Read step one above.

so they won't be coming to his aid at the end of January, but then again that might not be a bad thing. This will reduce the specter of the Coalition.

1) The NDP should not trust Ignatieff with cooperation if last years proroguement is any indicator. I agree that the NDP will not be following the LPC tactic. Nor should they and I doubt they will be apoligists for the Harper Governments Olympic Holiday. The spectre is real if the optics perceive it as such. Thus it is better for both parties to make their cases independantly. Same for the BQ. Besides this isn't about the parties and their desire for some joint government. It is about the supression of democracy and suspension of parliament.

If Iggy and the Liberals can continue to effectively hammer the Tories (and not just endlessly repeat themselves like they did a few months ago) then they have a chance of not only maintaining the apparently unpopularity of the prorogation and long recess, but of also making themselves look like a government in waiting. That's probably the single biggest problem Iggy has had so far, he just hasn't portrayed himself as Prime Minister material. I suspect lots of people are not overly fond of Harper, but they may be viewing the field as rather limited in choices.

At the end of the day, Harper's gambit is that time's on his side, and that if the electorate is unhappy about the prorogation, that it will have evaporated by February, and the feel-good nature of the Olympics will make everyone forget what happened. And who knows, he may be right. Gambling on the apathy of the electorate seems to be a rather successful strategy in the Western world these days.

Agreed

[nicky10013]

Correct.

That could turn into LPC talking points. I don't think the LPC should start a two front attack. Read step one above.

1) The NDP should not trust Ignatieff with cooperation if last years proroguement is any indicator. I agree that the NDP will not be following the LPC tactic. Nor should they and I doubt they will be apoligists for the Harper Governments Olympic Holiday. The spectre is real if the optics perceive it as such. Thus it is better for both parties to make their cases independantly. Same for the BQ. Besides this isn't about the parties and their desire for some joint government. It is about the supression of democracy and suspension of parliament.

Agreed

Yup. I said it before and I'll say it again. The ball is in Ignatieff's court. Whether he wins or loses is squarely up to him. The problem is far too many people fail the test.

[eyeball]

The ball is in Ignatieff's court. Whether he wins or loses is squarely up to him. The problem is far too many people fail the test.

This court is more like a billiard table in which there are a number of balls in play. Ignatieff should play the ball marked reform. It should be fairly easy to point out how far Harper has strayed from what initially compelled him to enter politics.

An election in which the parties competed on the basis of who would out-reform the others could make things interesting.

[nicky10013]

This court is more like a billiard table in which there are a number of balls in play. Ignatieff should play the ball marked reform. It should be fairly easy to point out how far Harper has strayed from what initially compelled him to enter politics.

An election in which the parties competed on the basis of who would out-reform the others could make things interesting.

Whether he pushes for reform or not, he'll never win the west because if we're going to be honest, the debate isn't about policy anymore, it's about partisanship.

[Alta4ever]

Whether he pushes for reform or not, he'll never win the west because if we're going to be honest, the debate isn't about policy anymore, it's about partisanship.

He'll never win the west because the west has long been tired of the tyranny of the majority of central Canada and the liberal party is the representation of this. In Most ridings if contested it is the NDP that is usually the challenger and not the liberal party.

[Wild Bill]

yes, yes, Wild Bill... we all know the Conservative disdain for academia - for anyone with education... but, I gave you a few examples to chew on. Apparently, you must not think the scathing Economist review is funny... nor the Facebook group, which has grown another 5000 members, now at 170K - and counting. Given your reply suggests you favour the "common man" view of the Harper Conservative perogy move, I note you also don't comment on the Facebook group, at all - whatsoever... interesting.

It's not "conservative disdain", Wally! It's mine! I'm not a conservative.

I wasn't thinking of "anyone with an education". To me, education means physics, math, chemistry and the like. I've met who I consider educated people in other disciplines but not enough of them to give the benefit of the doubt carte blanche to every "artsie" I meet. I make up my mind after I've met them, on an individual basis.

If you can't accurately describe how a light bulb or an electric motor works, when both devices have been around for going on a century and a half, then how can you consider yourself educated?

When I made the comment, I was thinking more of the "B" Ark from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. The groups you cited reminded me of the "politicians, beauticians and telephone sanitizers" who were wandering on their own, wondering when the other Ark carrying the engineers, scientists and technicians was going to show up.

[nicky10013]

He'll never win the west because the west has long been tired of the tyranny of the majority of central Canada and the liberal party is the representation of this. In Most ridings if contested it is the NDP that is usually the challenger and not the liberal party.

point proven.