Mass Man, and the Revolt of the Undermen

[Pliny]

What short memories people have.

-k

Good read, kimmy. It isn't that the left have short memories - they have no memory since they make things up as they go along.

[kuzadd]

look, I hate to get into the right/left bull, because it is just bull.

George Bush had his fanatical followers, in the US from the religious right.

There were two documentaries off the top of my head which pushed Bush as the second coming of christ.

One was: Jesus Camp

The other was" George Bush Faith in the White house

Then I recall some fawning comments made by religious leaders regarding GWB.

One by Jerry Falwell

I am such a strong admirer and supporter of George W. Bush that if he suggested eliminating the income tax or doubling it, I would vote yes on first blush"

On first blush, what a giggling school girl!

So those ally that themselves on the right can say whatever they want, but the demagoguery was there.

And it was meant to be there. Just as it is with Obama. Face it these guys, these presidents, are Products, Brand Obama, Brand Bush

Obama-young, energetic

Bush- Christian, good old boy

They are then pitched as such to their respective and receptive audiences.

All done with the help of a large PR firm.

As has been done for a long time now.

I highly recommend an older book, you may be able to get a copy, pricey.

The Hidden Persuaders

written in 1957, here is a link to a relevant chapter

Politics and the Image Builders

The branding and marketing of Presidents is nothing new and nothing unusual, it is not exclusively left or right. The only thing difference, is the individual that believes it is so.

Edited September 22, 2009 by kuzadd

[bush_cheney2004]

George W. Bush was insulted and publicly humiliated from the 'git go. Even Dan Rather had a go at him (and lost). If President Obama cannot take this kind of heat, then he needs to at least retreat to his oval office and spend less time in television studios inviting more of the same.

[Oleg Bach]

George W. Bush was insulted and publicly humiliated from the 'git go. Even Dan Rather had a go at him (and lost). If President Obama cannot take this kind of heat, then he needs to at least retreat to his oval office and spend less time in television studios inviting more of the same.

Men of honour and character do not appear on comedy shows.

[Sir Bandelot]

This was a guy who was likened to a chimpanzee. People urged him to go eat some pretzels (referencing an incident where he apparently choked on one.) Being called a liar is nothing new for politicians, but the claim that Bush himself planned the murder of thousands of his own citizens is something I can't recall being directed at other presidents. There's also the popularity of the belief that Bush himself was merely a sock-puppet for Dick Cheney. Or the frequent claim that he's a religious wacko, or reference to his use of drugs and alcohol as a young man. I reject as absurd the suggestion that Bush's critics afforded him some level of respect that Obama's critics haven't reciprocated. If anything, the reverse is in evidence.

And that is without mentioning the celebrities, who seem to be a remarkably think-alike group. Bush's lack of intellect was a goldmine for people like Letterman and Jon Stewart. I recall that fat loser clutching his Oscar while he bellowed "SHAME ON YOU MR PRESIDENT SHAME ON YOU..." or the Dixie Chicks or various Baldwins... the celebrities are hardly a representative of the American people as a whole, but they have a loud voice and used it many times to express a genuine contempt for Bush.

Those things were said, ABOUT the president. They were not said, DIRECTLY TO the president. I would have been quite surprised if someone had done to Bush what Wilson did to Obama... especially if they got away with it.

No, something tells me this incident was fundamenally different somehow.

Georgia congressman: Wilson's outburst 'carefully calculated'

Rep. Hank Johnson is standing by his comments that Rep. Joe Wilson's "You lie!" outburst at President Obama "instigated more racist sentiment" and could lead to a resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan.

This is the debate. No matter whether you agree or not, this is what they're talking about these days.

[Moonlight Graham]

All the while he avoids the label "socialist". Never saying he is one and even countering anyone who calls him one. Well, a lot of Americans know the difference between a free democracy and socialism and a lot more are getting educated now. No thanks to the public education system, but - Thanks, Barack, for waking them up!

oooh there's that scary word: socialism! Exactly what kind of "socialist" do you think Obama is? What is it exactly about Obama's policies that has taken the US away from being a "free democracy"?

[kimmy]

Those things were said, ABOUT the president. They were not said, DIRECTLY TO the president.

Seems like an awfully thin distinction on which to base this claim that Bush was regarded with respect that isn't being afforded Obama. On the one hand you've got one boor heckling Obama in Congress; on the other you've got a pantheon of celebrities ridiculing Bush from the biggest platform in the world.

Perhaps there is an expectation that a Congressman not behave like a boor, compared to a natural expectation that celebrities will behave like boors.

I would have been quite surprised if someone had done to Bush what Wilson did to Obama... especially if they got away with it.

No, something tells me this incident was fundamenally different somehow.

It's fundamentally different in the sense that a handful of people are attempting to equate it with racism somehow.

"Liar", which in the Bush years was code for "doesn't tell the truth" is now apparently code for "negro", at least when spoken by someone from the Deep South toward someone of dark complexion.

This is partisan politics, pure and simple. Some Obamatons think they can play this for political mileage to put their foes on the defensive, so that's what they're doing. The Bushies never had anything quite as effective, but if they did they'd have done the same.

Georgia congressman: Wilson's outburst 'carefully calculated'

Rep. Hank Johnson is standing by his comments that Rep. Joe Wilson's "You lie!" outburst at President Obama "instigated more racist sentiment" and could lead to a resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan.

This is the debate. No matter whether you agree or not, this is what they're talking about these days.

It's being talked about because claims of racism, especially when it's directed at the President of the United States, get talked about.

This is stupid.

First off, I have no doubt that there are racist fringe groups in the United States who are extremely upset that Obama is President. I can't guess at their numbers, but we know they exist.

However, I think they may have already figured out that Obama's parents weren't both white. I don't think they needed Joe Wilson calling him a liar to figure that one out. I mean, what is the thinking here... that certain racists hear the word "liar", equate it with some sort of secret Deep South subtext, and suddenly realize

?

I really don't think they needed Joe Wilson to point that out for them. I think the white supremacists were probably not waiting for a code-word from Joe Wilson to get made about Obama being President. I heard from my source at the FBI (as stupid as it sounds, I have a source at the FBI) in summer 2008 that they were already on alert regarding hate groups reacting to Obama's run for the presidency. See, most of the racists had already figured out well over a year ago that Obama's got an awfully deep tan.

What this is is desperate, pitiful political opportunism.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

On balance, far better to be called a lying "negro" during a joint address to Congress than to be shot like a "white" president.

[Michael Hardner]

All the while he avoids the label "socialist". Never saying he is one and even countering anyone who calls him one. Well, a lot of Americans know the difference between a free democracy and socialism and a lot more are getting educated now. No thanks to the public education system, but - Thanks, Barack, for waking them up!

What we call Socialist states, such as in Europe, are all democratic states.

And from what I've read tax rates are still below what they were in the Reagan era, and he was no socialist.

So, your post amounts to more piling-on and posturing that might work on Fox News, but simply marks you here as one of those weird pamphleteers who wants to attach as many negative labels to him in as many forums as possible. This type of broadcasting defeats the purpose of having a forum like MLW, because you can't talk to people like that.

[Sir Bandelot]

The inheritors of a once free and truly noble nation: the Americans, are proving before our very eyes the incontrovertibly true statement made by John Adams, who succeeded George Washington as President of the American Republic: "Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes itself, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."

Looking at the mindless rabble of lemming like creatures who bleat to Obama, even to worship this mediocre individual, truly are not of the same stock as the founders of the US. There's something wrong about worshiping ANY politician... its essentially levantine or religion in nature.

If democracy in the United States is dead, it died long before Obama.

[Sir Bandelot]

Seems like an awfully thin distinction on which to base this claim that Bush was regarded with respect that isn't being afforded Obama. On the one hand you've got one boor heckling Obama in Congress; on the other you've got a pantheon of celebrities ridiculing Bush from the biggest platform in the world.

And what was the outcome for those celebrities? They were punished, ostracized. Their careers damaged. And this because they criticized Bush in a public forum, to the media, yes, but not even directly in front of Bush.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/021207.html

With war hysteria then sweeping America, the right-wing attack machine switched into high gear, organizing rallies to drive trucks over Dixie Chicks CDs and threatening country-western stations that played Dixie Chicks music. Maines later apologized, but it was too late to stop the group’s songs from falling down the country music charts.

On April 24, 2003, with the Iraq War barely a month old, NBC News anchor Tom Brokaw asked Bush about the boycott of the Dixie Chicks. The President responded that the singers “can say what they want to say,” but he added that his supporters then had an equal right to punish the singers for their comments.

“They shouldn’t have their feelings hurt just because some people don’t want to buy their records when they speak out,” Bush said. “Freedom is a two-way street.”

---

Here, Bush uses his position of supreme power to encourage his supporters to damage the Dixie Chicks. After that, the public criticisms toned down quite a lot. People knew, Bush was a petty man who would sometimes personally seek to get revenge, though he preferred to stand smiling on the sidelines while is attack dogs did the dirty work. You would not want to piss of Mr. Bush...

Perhaps there is an expectation that a Congressman not behave like a boor, compared to a natural expectation that celebrities will behave like boors.

I don't believe it was racially motivated, but I do believe it was calculated, for the purpose of harming Obama and raising public distrust.

This is not some hollywood coke sniffing superstar giving their opinion. this is another leader, a representative of government takes the bold step to shout out on a televised speech, that the president is lying to the people. It reinforces what all the extremist groups are trying to say. It does way more damage, by incensing ALL the groups... including the racists.

This is stupid.

First off, I have no doubt that there are racist fringe groups in the United States who are extremely upset that Obama is President. I can't guess at their numbers, but we know they exist.

However, I think they may have already figured out that Obama's parents weren't both white. I don't think they needed Joe Wilson calling him a liar to figure that one out. I mean, what is the thinking here... that certain racists hear the word "liar", equate it with some sort of secret Deep South subtext, and suddenly realize

?

What this is is desperate, pitiful political opportunism.

What this is, is theater, carefully crafted to manipulate public opinion. It's not about the truth, it's all about the 15 second sound bite.

Oh yeah and youtube

Edited September 23, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[kuzadd]

Right on bandelot! Right on.

Edited September 23, 2009 by kuzadd

[Pliny]

oooh there's that scary word: socialism! Exactly what kind of "socialist" do you think Obama is?

A radical socialist.

What is it exactly about Obama's policies that has taken the US away from being a "free democracy"?

The question should be, What is it exactly about Obama's policies, that will take the US further away from being a "free democracy"(and whatever you mean by "free democracy" is not clear)?"

His meddling and intrusion into the the banking industry, the auto industry and his push to openthe door to socialized medicine.

Why do you think socialism is a scary word? All organizations have a socialist structure of some nature. Few, if any, are democracies and even fewer would survive being democracies.

[Pliny]

What we call Socialist states, such as in Europe, are all democratic states.

So was the USSR a democratic state.

And from what I've read tax rates are still below what they were in the Reagan era, and he was no socialist.

I didn't hear any thanks to Bush for cutting tax rates to below the Reagan era. Soon they will be highest ever.

So, your post amounts to more piling-on and posturing that might work on Fox News, but simply marks you here as one of those weird pamphleteers who wants to attach as many negative labels to him in as many forums as possible. This type of broadcasting defeats the purpose of having a forum like MLW, because you can't talk to people like that.

I'm marked now. I did give him praise for not playing the race card on Letterman.

Sorry, this is the only forum I have time for.

Since you can't talk to "people like that", you are obviously addressing your comments to someone else? Talk to me, Michael!

[Michael Hardner]

Pliny

QUOTE (Michael Hardner @ Sep 23 2009, 04:53 AM) *

What we call Socialist states, such as in Europe, are all democratic states.

So was the USSR a democratic state.

The USSR wasn't a democratic state.

QUOTE

And from what I've read tax rates are still below what they were in the Reagan era, and he was no socialist.

I didn't hear any thanks to Bush for cutting tax rates to below the Reagan era. Soon they will be highest ever.

I guess you're conceding that the socialist has lower tax rates than Reagan.

QUOTE

So, your post amounts to more piling-on and posturing that might work on Fox News, but simply marks you here as one of those weird pamphleteers who wants to attach as many negative labels to him in as many forums as possible. This type of broadcasting defeats the purpose of having a forum like MLW, because you can't talk to people like that.

I'm marked now. I did give him praise for not playing the race card on Letterman.

Ok, so you get half-marks.

Sorry, this is the only forum I have time for.

Since you can't talk to "people like that", you are obviously addressing your comments to someone else? Talk to me, Michael!

My point is "one can't converse with someone who is only spouting propaganda". You strike me as someone who can articulate a good argument, concede points and work with the person you're discussing to either reach an agreement, or to arrive at points you agree to disagree on. That's a discussion.

[Pliny]

The USSR wasn't a democratic state.

They claimed they were, I believe. I remember reading that the Communist party got 100% of the popular vote in their elections. Are you saying it was fixed?

Is it me or does it seem to be that in a democracy the ones that demand democracy the loudest are the strongest proponents for eliminating it?

I guess you're conceding that the socialist has lower tax rates than Reagan.

Give him time. He's started with tariffs first and has a lot on his plate. There is still cap and trade to look forward to, higher taxes on the richest 5% of the nation, and how is he ever going to get that deficit down while not adding a dime to it form health care.

Ok, so you get half-marks.

Yesss!

My point is "one can't converse with someone who is only spouting propaganda". You strike me as someone who can articulate a good argument, concede points and work with the person you're discussing to either reach an agreement, or to arrive at points you agree to disagree on. That's a discussion.

I think that's a compliment, thanks. Some here think I am spouting propaganda though.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Pliny

[Michael Hardner]

Pliny,

They claimed they were, I believe. I remember reading that the Communist party got 100% of the popular vote in their elections. Are you saying it was fixed?

Is it me or does it seem to be that in a democracy the ones that demand democracy the loudest are the strongest proponents for eliminating it?

It was fixed, and it's you. Let's not be silly unless we're trying to be REALLY silly.

[kimmy]

And what was the outcome for those celebrities? They were punished, ostracized. Their careers damaged.

Well, for a lot of them, the only punishment was being lampooned in Team America: World Police.

On April 24, 2003, with the Iraq War barely a month old, NBC News anchor Tom Brokaw asked Bush about the boycott of the Dixie Chicks. The President responded that the singers “can say what they want to say,” but he added that his supporters then had an equal right to punish the singers for their comments.

“They shouldn’t have their feelings hurt just because some people don’t want to buy their records when they speak out,” Bush said. “Freedom is a two-way street.”[/i]

---

Here, Bush uses his position of supreme power to encourage his supporters to damage the Dixie Chicks. After that, the public criticisms toned down quite a lot. People knew, Bush was a petty man who would sometimes personally seek to get revenge, though he preferred to stand smiling on the sidelines while is attack dogs did the dirty work. You would not want to piss of Mr. Bush...

Bush states the obvious (is there a joke waiting to be made with that? I will leave it alone.) Your right to say whatever you want carries with it the inherent risk that people might not like what you have to say. (I run into this a lot.)

A performer who gets political runs the risk of alienating fans who don't share those views.

I lost a lot of respect for Dave Grohl when he spoke out in support of some renegade AIDS group that advocates forgoing treatment and having unprotected sex.

I lost a lot of respect for Gord Downie after I was at a Tragically Hip concert where he appeared at one point to be pantomiming soldiers being shot, just a few days after Canadians had been killed in Afghanistan.

Speaking out against Bush is pretty low risk for Michael Moore, whose only fans are people who support his views already. But for the Chunks? A lot of country music fans are rural, and a lot of rural people have pretty conservative views. Sorry, but they bit the hand that fed them. It's as simple as that.

I don't believe it was racially motivated, but I do believe it was calculated, for the purpose of harming Obama and raising public distrust.

Well, we agree on that much: partisan politics as usual.

This is not some hollywood coke sniffing superstar giving their opinion. this is another leader, a representative of government takes the bold step to shout out on a televised speech, that the president is lying to the people. It reinforces what all the extremist groups are trying to say. It does way more damage, by incensing ALL the groups... including the racists.

But now we have to disagree again.

When the president is a white guy, accusing him of deceit is just typical partisan politics, I think we can all agree on that much.

But now, because the president is black, typical partisan politics is dangerous and could whip up extremism because if people don't believe Obama is doing a good job, it will incite hatred against all black people?

What this is, is theater, carefully crafted to manipulate public opinion. It's not about the truth, it's all about the 15 second sound bite.

Oh yeah and youtube

See, you're accusing Joe Wilson of reaching for an opportunistic soundbite, but I believe that Jimmy Carter and Maureen Dowd and Hank Johnson here are doing exactly the same: just fighting partisan politics the way it has been done for years.

-k

[eyeball]

Is it me or does it seem to be that in a democracy the ones that demand democracy the loudest are the strongest proponents for eliminating it?

I can categorically state its you.

[Pliny]

Pliny,

It was fixed, and it's you. Let's not be silly unless we're trying to be REALLY silly.

Fixed elections!!?? And they were so proud of the results.

From my limited experience and from what I have read it seems true that those that demand a voice in democracy are the most likely to deny others a voice and some, as demonstrated under McCarthy, held out that they should have freedom of speech while we know in the totalitarian state there is no freedom of speech. I think they even thought that there were fair elections in the USSR.

Even in my own little riding a white knight who had recruited a bunch of his friends of varied political persuasions and even some with opposing political interest, to buy party memberships and vote for him as the representative of the party for the riding at the annual general meeting. Long time members were shouted down and an individual who, in my opinion had no idea what the party was about, or it's principles, was now the elected representative. I asked his spokesman about it and all he had to say was, "We didn't do anything illegal." He knew it was a calculated heist. I told the elected representative that it was not an honourable way to take over the riding. He was only a bit red-faced about it. I was not informed of meetings except for the AGM when quorums were necessary and informing members compulsory.

It was funny because I had talked my wife into going to the meeting. She didn't want to go because she said it would be too boring. It was almost a free-for-all. Far from boring. Too bad reason didn't prevail over force.

There are other examples where democracy fails us but my posts are too long so maybe you can think of a few as well or research a few. I am not particularly stuck on the concept of an open 100% democracy. I believe a vote should be earned as a privilege and not granted as an entitlement. Entitlements are never held as valuable as an earned privilege. There is a thread on this topic.

Your thrust has not escaped the perceptive "Eyeball" - capitalist champion of the left - perhaps not in the same league as Michael Moore, but anyway, I think he saw red and his collective conscience couldn't resist another stab.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Pliny

[Michael Hardner]

Pliny,

Our democratic system should take into account the society upon which it is based. To my mind, the most important part of the system is the way that voters get information. And Canada did a good thing by reforming campaign finance to reduce the influence of unions and large businesses.

The next step would be for us to eliminate television advertising, so that we wouldn't have to deal with ads like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq1BfkEWwy4...feature=related

[Pliny]

Pliny,

Our democratic system should take into account the society upon which it is based. To my mind, the most important part of the system is the way that voters get information. And Canada did a good thing by reforming campaign finance to reduce the influence of unions and large businesses.

The next step would be for us to eliminate television advertising, so that we wouldn't have to deal with ads like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq1BfkEWwy4...feature=related

No doubt those ads are in poor taste.

I agree that our democratic system, and for that matter, any governmental system, needs to take into account the society in which it finds itself governing. I also agree that finance reform was good.

The advent of the internet makes information available to everyone at their fingertips. Now all we have to do is learn how to weed out all the BS, the crap, the propaganda and really start to see how truth is actually revealed in action and their results not in pictures and words alone. Don't mistake this as a call for men of action to step up to the political plate. Socialists are men of action who are going to right all the wrongs of the world. Socialists like Mussolini and Hitler, Lenin and Trotsky, Castro and Gueverra, Obama and.....OK forget Biden. By men of action I mean people who will not only protect the sanctity of person and property from being infringed by criminal or foreign elements but also from those granted authority to use force by society - the government themselves.

The internet can empower the individual and it is a scary thing for the State. When Al Gore invented the internet he wasn't thinking of people being able to discern propaganda from truth...it was a method for him to spread propaganda. It's a new tool and we are in an unprecedented evolutionary process of being able to learn who the truth tellers are unlike anything before.... as long as we are willing to have a, in your word, discussion.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Pliny