Afghanistan and Oil

[M.Dancer]

Albright and Obama's comments definitely point in that direction and they support the theory that a similarily misguided pattern of interference in the larger region surrounding Iran contributed to the Islamic extremism that lead to 9/11. In short, the west's foreign policies in this region, starting with Iran helped cause 9/11 to happen.

Nonsense. Might as well say that the defeat of the argentinians caused 9/11.

[eyeball]

You can say whatever you like Morris.

[Wild Bill]

You can say whatever you like Morris.

I always have a problem with what seems to be an odd sense of 'moral equivalency' in these arguments. If I understand correctly, some folks are saying that because American upset some folks in the Middle East politically, that gives them the right to publicly air video of them cutting the head of some poor western reporter, or blowing up tens or hundreds of civilians in their marketplaces.

Or throwing acid in the faces of school girls.

I just don't see the equivalency! To me, these people are evil cavemen. They share little or nothing with what I would consider morality. They are little more than animals and should be treated as such. You can't negotiate with them because they don't keep their word.

How many cases are there of Americans deliberately targeting marketplaces? Or throwing acid in the faces of school girls? Or firing rockets not at soldiers of who you consider to be your enemy but rather randomly into residential districts?

As far as I'm concerned, there is no equivalency. Or any comparison. If a terrorist ever harmed my daughters I could see myself strapping on some tnt and paying him or his comrades a return visit!

Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of innocents in order to achieve political ends. To me, as a Libertarian, there can be nothing so vile. Terrorists have no right to even take up space.

As Kim Mitchell once sang: "Ah, you should be six feet under, pushing up wheat for the hungry!"

[eyeball]

How many cases are there of Americans deliberately targeting marketplaces? Or throwing acid in the faces of school girls? Or firing rockets not at soldiers of who you consider to be your enemy but rather randomly into residential districts?

Its the cases where western propped dictators have violated and abused their populations that are at issue.

How would you feel if one of these murdered members of your family and the west just shrugged it off and said..."yeah he's a bastard but he's our bastard"?

Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of innocents in order to achieve political ends.

Its a desperate horrible thing, there can be no doubt. Diddling with weaker smaller countries is a deliberate act intended to achieve political and commercial ends and is just plain evil when its committed by people, namely us, who should know better. Of that there can be no doubt.

[eyeball]

They are little more than animals and should be treated as such. You can't negotiate with them because they don't keep their word.

But somehow you can trust their dictators...why...how?

[Wild Bill]

But somehow you can trust their dictators...why...how?

No, of course you can't trust their dictators but you can more easily control them! The alternative is to decimate the populations of such countries. After all, it would appear that neanderthal violence is part of their culture!

Some exceptions, of course. Still, it would be impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff. Since we have a moral code that won't let us just bomb a primitive country "back to stone" then imposing a puppet ruler is the only way to control what is clearly a threat!

Look at Al-Queda! To mount a suicide mission of crashing airliners into the Twin Towers is not the act of mad dogs then I don't know what is! The Taliban rulers of Afghanistan catered to Al-Queda with money and protected training camps. Whatever is happening in Afghanistan today, you can bet the training camps are rarely seen!

If we let mad dogs rule themselves we'd only have ourselves to blame if they wandered into our turf once in a while and bit some of us. You can't blame American politics for provoking Islamic fundamentalists. The mere fact that western culture exists is enough for them to hate us!

Despite our faults, we have a culture based more on individual freedoms. They have a culture based on a small group forcing their will on everyone else. It is almost impossible to keep the ideas of blue jeans, satellite television and rock and roll out of any society today, even North Korea. This makes it more difficult for some rulers to control their people, since it is human instinct to gravitate to more personal freedom. It is obvious that the Taliban and other fundamentalists like them would be perfectly happy to see western culture wiped from the face of the earth!

You can bash the Americans all you want but only a fool would choose to emigrate to northern Pakistan instead of America.

[crazykai]

The whole War on Terror is a reaction to many Americans conscious, and subconscious, need for armed vengance and deep seeded racism. Conservatives used fear and negativity to stoke these reactions, ending millions of lives and costing billions and probably trillions of dollars. Nothing has been accomplished in the last 8 years, it's time to end it.

[bush_cheney2004]

The whole War on Terror is a reaction to many Americans conscious, and subconscious, need for armed vengance and deep seeded racism.

Well gee.....that was good enough for Germany and Japan.

....Conservatives used fear and negativity to stoke these reactions, ending millions of lives and costing billions and probably trillions of dollars. Nothing has been accomplished in the last 8 years, it's time to end it.

It's a lot older than eight years...and transcends political parties. Wanna bomb some more Serbs?

[eyeball]

It is almost impossible to keep the ideas of blue jeans, satellite television and rock and roll out of any society today, even North Korea. This makes it more difficult for some rulers to control their people, since it is human instinct to gravitate to more personal freedom.

Precisely. Leave these people alone and without us to rail against the Taliban would only have their twisted view to offer Afghanistan's people. They wouldn't last long.

[Wild Bill]

Precisely. Leave these people alone and without us to rail against the Taliban would only have their twisted view to offer Afghanistan's people. They wouldn't last long.

I don't follow your logic. If the Taliban have most of the guns what's the chances of a popular uprising? If the Taliban control the schools and indoctrinate the kids from a young age do you think they will allow the 'leakage' of CNN and MTV to influence them without some kind of challenge?

Of course not. They are fanatics and will try to commit more acts of terrorism against the West!

Afghanistan is not East Germany or Czechoslovakia, where you had a well educated populace and although the government was communist the police and military were at least civilized. The Taliban think nothing of letting 50 civilians get bombed trying to salvage free gasoline if it will make the Americans look bad in the liberal press.

No, Islamic fundamentalism is so repressive that the chances of a people successfully freeing themselves with no outside help is just about zero!

We've seen this before, many times in history. There are Canadians in my own family who came here fleeing the Russians from Hungary, circa 1956. They are still very bitter against America, since they believe they were encouraged by America to rise up against Russian rule and then left hung out to dry when America didn't follow through!

I have never met anyone who had grown up under a repressive regime who hadn't desperately wanted outside help to remove their oppressors. Frankly, they would find your attitude rather cruel and uncaring. Myself, I have mixed feelings. I sympathize but feel no obligation to save the world. Still, I am not so naive as to think that the 'bad guys' will always leave us alone if not provoked.