Afghanistan and Oil

[GostHacked]

The point that both of you are going to come to is that the US/CIA overthrew the Iranian government which was not democratic.

I think you both win with the above statement.

[M.Dancer]

as I've said a few times now, those Mosaddeq actions you so decry as "undemocratic", were responsive to a gained knowledge of the formative coup...

There was no coup in the summer of 52. Remember? The Truman whitehouse rejected the British proposal? It wasn't till thwe British presented it to the Eisenhower White House that it started....in 53.

[waldo]

Really. The same folks who brought the 79 islamic revolution were the ones opposed to Mossy. The fact they also opposed the Shah is not coincidental, but irrelevant.

what are you talking about? Mosaddeq was very popular within the Iranian people - Time Magazine named him it's 1951 Man of the Year for his efforts to democratize Iran... his nationalistic views and desire to keep Iran's oil wealth within Iran was received well by the populace... any suggestion that Mosaddeq was wildly "westernizing Iran" is overplayed.

[waldo]

The point that both of you are going to come to is that the US/CIA overthrew the Iranian government which was not democratic.

I think you both win with the above statement.

don't think so... Dancer still hedges on the actual involvements of the U.S./CIA... and, of course, he will forever maintain that the government overthrown was "not democratic".

For many years, Iran has defined itself in part by its opposition to my country, and there is indeed a tumultuous history between us. In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically-elected Iranian government.

[M.Dancer]

don't think so... Dancer still hedges on the actual involvements of the U.S./CIA...

YTou get no points for misrepresenting me.

and, of course, he will forever maintain that the government overthrown was "not democratic".

Correct. It wasn't, It was a fledgling dictatoship.

[DogOnPorch]

what are you talking about? Mosaddeq was very popular within the Iranian people - Time Magazine named him it's 1951 Man of the Year for his efforts to democratize Iran... his nationalistic views and desire to keep Iran's oil wealth within Iran was received well by the populace... any suggestion that Mosaddeq was wildly "westernizing Iran" is overplayed.

It was Mosaddeq's streak of authoritarianism that removed even the support of the Tudeh for his presidency. Not very popular at all by the time the Royalists arrested him. Ironically, the Tudeh thought Mosadeqq too close to the Americans and not serving their pro-Communist interests.

[GostHacked]

don't think so... Dancer still hedges on the actual involvements of the U.S./CIA... and, of course, he will forever maintain that the government overthrown was "not democratic".

And that is what I said. There was a coup, but the Iranian government at that time was not democratic. This falls in line with what M.Dancer is saying.

[waldo]

There was no coup in the summer of 52. Remember? The Truman whitehouse rejected the British proposal? It wasn't till thwe British presented it to the Eisenhower White House that it started....in 53.

in the works... percolating... bubbling... formative...

yes - Truman threw the British out... something about "the U.S. doesn't overthrow governments". Yeesh... Truman seems so naive in today's time

but Eisenhower had a home-grown self-serving outlet to pursue... "better dead than red". Oh for the days of the Cold War, when things were so cut-and-dried - so black-and-white. Of course, this was the peak point - beginning in 1950, where U.S. Senator McCarthy became the highly visible public face of a period in which Cold War tensions fueled fears of widespread Communist subversion. And of course, Eisenhower could sell the Iranian coup internally around the "Commie angle"... in spite of the fact Mosaddeq was not a communist nor had communist sympathies. One might say Mosaddeq was a high-profile victim of McCarthyism!

[waldo]

YTou get no points for misrepresenting me.

perhaps I misjudged all your previous attempts to play down the CIA initiation/planning/deployment... I believe, for a period there, you kept talking about the U.S. responding to Iran's request (from some "unnamed general") in the form of simply providing "aid"... as in some kind of benign undertaking, like providing a humanitarian "food & bandages" response!

Correct. It wasn't, It was a fledgling dictatoship.

not according to Obama... Obama trumps Dancer! Would you like Obama's quote one more time (even if... even if... one were to accept your premise, would that validate the U.S./CIA response... in overthrowing a government... because it was a "fledgling dictatorship (according to Dancer)?)

[DogOnPorch]

One might say Mosaddeq was a high-profile victim of McCarthyism!

Gee...I only said that how many pages ago?

[DogOnPorch]

Obama probably needed to read-up on Operation Ajax and/or be briefed. Faulty information...revisionism?

[waldo]

One might say Mosaddeq was a high-profile victim of McCarthyism!

Gee...I only said that how many pages ago?

I said "one might say it"... I didn't say, I said it; however, yours is a genuinely open acceptance to the U.S. demagogic accusations (unfounded) and attacks towards Mosaddeq/Iran. Acceptance is a part of the healing process - well done!

[M.Dancer]

perhaps I misjudged all your previous attempts to play down the CIA initiation/planning/deployment... I believe, for a period there, you kept talking about the U.S. responding to Iran's request (from some "unnamed general") in the form of simply providing "aid"... as in some kind of benign undertaking, like providing a humanitarian "food & bandages" response!

I cannot be held responsible for your naivety.

[waldo]

Obama probably needed to read-up on Operation Ajax and/or be briefed. Faulty information...revisionism?

we could run with that for a while... was that a conscious admission by Obama, and if so - why so? Why would Obama revise - to what end?

[waldo]

I cannot be held responsible for your naivety.

uhhh... no! I kept asking you, repeatedly, to qualify exactly what U.S./CIA "aid" meant? You never did answer... you never would answer. It was the PorchDog who finally barked up something about "money & logistics"

[M.Dancer]

uhhh... no! I kept asking you, repeatedly, to qualify exactly what U.S./CIA "aid" meant? You never did answer... you never would answer. It was the PorchDog who finally barked up something about "money & logistics"

And I asked you first. No doubt unable to find the divisions of US troops marching on Tehran, you decided it was best to flip the question around.

You get no points for flip flopping.

[DogOnPorch]

I said "one might say it"... I didn't say, I said it; however, yours is a genuinely open acceptance to the U.S. demagogic accusations (unfounded) and attacks towards Mosaddeq/Iran. Acceptance is a part of the healing process - well done!

Whatever...I said it you didn't.

[DogOnPorch]

uhhh... no! I kept asking you, repeatedly, to qualify exactly what U.S./CIA "aid" meant? You never did answer... you never would answer. It was the PorchDog who finally barked up something about "money & logistics"

And I said it was probably a C-97...look it up.

[DogOnPorch]

You get no points for flip flopping.

When one is a waffle by nature...maybe you do.

[eyeball]

I really don't know why there's so much quibbling and evasivness over what happened given that the quibblers believe it was the right and even noble thing to do at the time.

Why wasn't there a great denunciation and repudiation of Albright and Obama's acknowledgement of the CIA's role in overthrowing Iran's democratically elected government from the Republicans and conservatives?

[DogOnPorch]

I really don't know why there's so much quibbling and evasivness over what happened given that the quibblers believe it was the right and even noble thing to do at the time.

Why wasn't there a great denunciation and repudiation of Albright and Obama's acknowledgement of the CIA's role in overthrowing Iran's democratically elected government from the Republicans and conservatives?

Wasn't there? We're doing it now...others must have too over the last while.

[eyeball]

Wasn't there? We're doing it now...others must have too over the last while.

Its been awfully timid. Why didn't anyone with real gravitas come out and publicly celebrate the overthrow of Iran? I'd think the accusations of US malfeasance in Iran in the context of it being a root cause of 9/11 would almost qualify as being a blood libel. Why wasn't it denounced as such?

[DogOnPorch]

Its been awfully timid. Why didn't anyone with real gravitas come out and publicly celebrate the overthrow of Iran? I'd think the accusations of US malfeasance in Iran in the context of it being a root cause of 9/11 would almost qualify as being a blood libel. Why wasn't it denounced as such?

Well Obama bowed to the Saudi king...me thinks he just isn't playing President like others have. OBL stated that it was US troops in his beloved Arabia that was the root cause for 9-11.

[M.Dancer]

I'd think the accusations of US malfeasance in Iran in the context of it being a root cause of 9/11 would almost qualify as being a blood libel. Why wasn't it denounced as such?

I can't think of anyone with "gravitas" who says the events of 1953 led to 9/11.

[eyeball]

I can't think of anyone with "gravitas" who says the events of 1953 led to 9/11.

Albright and Obama's comments definitely point in that direction and they support the theory that a similarily misguided pattern of interference in the larger region surrounding Iran contributed to the Islamic extremism that lead to 9/11. In short, the west's foreign policies in this region, starting with Iran helped cause 9/11 to happen.