Afghanistan and Oil

[eyeball]

So much for the democaritic government.

I wonder how undemocratic ours might suddenly become if it thought it was about to be overthrown by foreigners.

Just look at how quick sycophants like yourself are to defend the suspension of just about any civil liberty or due process the government proposes in its Wars on...fill-in-blank-here.

Conservatives say- Cost of Afghanistan war?, taxpayers mind your own business!

[M.Dancer]

I wonder how undemocratic ours might suddenly become if it thought it was about to be overthrown by foreigners.

Just look at how quick sycophants like yourself are to defend the suspension of just about any civil liberty or due process the government proposes in its Wars on...fill-in-blank-here.

Conservatives say- Cost of Afghanistan war?, taxpayers mind your own business!

Which of course has nothing to do with due process, civil liberties etc etc...is there a reason for this off topic irrelevancy?

[eyeball]

Which of course has nothing to do with due process, civil liberties etc etc...is there a reason for this off topic irrelevancy?

You're the one who's preoccupied with quibbling about the democratic standards of a foreign country over 50 years ago. That and the scant difference between whether the US joined or lead the overthrow of its government - which of course has nothing to do with due process, civil liberties etc etc either.

Still, the C.I.A. took full credit inside the government.

So WTF is that all about?

[M.Dancer]

You're the one who's preoccupied with quibbling about the democratic standards of a foreign country over 50 years ago.

TRY AGAIN. I am refuting the ridulous notion that the US overthrough a democratic regime. It was not a democracy. There was no parliament, only rigged referendums.

That and the scant difference between whether the US joined or lead the overthrow of its government

But it has everything to do with the Anti US myths you love so dearly and so dearly you try to foist on everyone.

- which of course has nothing to do with due process, civil liberties etc etc either.

So WTF is that all about?

Beats me. I would be the last person to answer why you post irrelevancies...

[waldo]

The Iranians asked for help

Who initiated the covert plan? The Americans? Nooooo...

What about the democratic process?

So much for the democratic government.

the relevant point being, the initial British impetus was rejected by the U.S. administration of the day – that a subsequent U.S. administration, in it’s principal interests, later resurrected an intent to overthrow the Iranian government; i.e. U.S. initiation.

that U.S. initiation… that U.S. in-depth planning of the coup to overthrow the Iranian government – that U.S. involvement was formally acknowledged by Obama. You termed it “an apology”… I simply relayed it as “an acknowledgement”. To you, apparently, simply formally acknowledging the event/involvement warranted an apology attachment on your part (Dog made the same suggestion)… that simply acknowledging the U.S. involvement was tantamount to an apology.

the CIA coup based propaganda campaign to paint Mossadegh negatively, doesn’t detract from some of his actions – nor does it absolve partisan interpretations of the results of that CIA propaganda campaign and it’s tactics used against Mossadegh. At the end of the day, a democratically elected government was in place prior to the CIA coup… it was only during those formative planning coup stages, where Mossadegh became aware of the formative plot, that he moved to dissolve Parliament. Somewhat ironic that the referendum process would be so scrutinized by you in the face of the active beginnings of the CIA coup to overthrow his government. In any case, questioning the elected democratic status of the Iranian government is a non-starter… it was… and Obama acknowledged as much:

For many years, Iran has defined itself in part by its opposition to my country, and there is indeed a tumultuous history between us. In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically-elected Iranian government.

your concerted efforts to detract from the actual U.S./CIA involvement is quite comical. Your attempts to foist the Shah as the principal face and instrument of the initiation, planning and deployment of the coup is quite revisionist.

your ‘surprise’ article link revelation, was neither a surprise or a revelation. You kept taunting to have the CIA involvement detailed… to “show the CIA steps taken”… all predicated on leaving a false impression that the U.S./CIA didn’t play a major/leading role in the coup… that only benign support “aid” was provided by the U.S..

that CIA involvement, the CIA steps taken are precisely and methodically shown in this documents definitive account of the U.S./CIA – and Iranian – involvements in the overthrow of the democratically elected Iranian government. The U.S./CIA involvement you so attempted to deny/wash over. FOI… eventually they have a tendency to come through!

CLANDESTINE SERVICE HISTORY - OVERTHROW OF PREMIER MOSSADEQ OF IRAN

just a first for the CIA... many more followed... certainly, many more to come!

[M.Dancer]

the relevant point being, the initial British impetus was rejected by the U.S. administration of the day – that a subsequent U.S. administration, in it’s principal interests, later resurrected an intent to overthrow the Iranian government; i.e. U.S. initiation.

that U.S. initiation… that U.S. in-depth planning of the coup to overthrow the Iranian government – that U.S. involvement was formally acknowledged by Obama. You termed it “an apology”… I simply relayed it as “an acknowledgement”. To you, apparently, simply formally acknowledging the event/involvement warranted an apology attachment on your part (Dog made the same suggestion)… that simply acknowledging the U.S. involvement was tantamount to an apology.

the CIA coup based propaganda campaign to paint Mossadegh negatively, doesn’t detract from some of his actions – nor does it absolve partisan interpretations of the results of that CIA propaganda campaign and it’s tactics used against Mossadegh. At the end of the day, a democratically elected government was in place prior to the CIA coup… it was only during those formative planning coup stages, where Mossadegh became aware of the formative plot, that he moved to dissolve Parliament. Somewhat ironic that the referendum process would be so scrutinized by you in the face of the active beginnings of the CIA coup to overthrow his government. In any case, questioning the elected democratic status of the Iranian government is a non-starter… it was… and Obama acknowledged as much:

your concerted efforts to detract from the actual U.S./CIA involvement is quite comical. Your attempts to foist the Shah as the principal face and instrument of the initiation, planning and deployment of the coup is quite revisionist.

your ‘surprise’ article link revelation, was neither a surprise or a revelation. You kept taunting to have the CIA involvement detailed… to “show the CIA steps taken”… all predicated on leaving a false impression that the U.S./CIA didn’t play a major/leading role in the coup… that only benign support “aid” was provided by the U.S..

that CIA involvement, the CIA steps taken are precisely and methodically shown in this documents definitive account of the U.S./CIA – and Iranian – involvements in the overthrow of the democratically elected Iranian government. The U.S./CIA involvement you so attempted to deny/wash over. FOI… eventually they have a tendency to come through!

CLANDESTINE SERVICE HISTORY - OVERTHROW OF PREMIER MOSSADEQ OF IRAN

just a first for the CIA... many more followed... certainly, many more to come!

Does it hurt that much?

[waldo]

Does it hurt that much?

certainly not... showing you the full details of the CIA involvements that you taunted for... that you denied... doesn't hurt at all

[M.Dancer]

certainly not... showing you the full details of the CIA involvements that you taunted for... that you denied... doesn't hurt at all

Actually I showed them. You were incapable. Probably still are...

I mean, does it hurt so much to be so wrong?

Lets see?

You didn't believe a request came from the iranian...proven to be true.

You claimed it was a US Intititive, proven to be false.

You emoted over overthrowing a democracy, proven false.

It takes a big man to admit he is wrong....go on...add an inch

[waldo]

read the document... actually read it... relish in the U.S./CIA involvements in the initiation, planning and deployment of the overthrow of the democratically elected Iranian government

For many years, Iran has defined itself in part by its opposition to my country, and there is indeed a tumultuous history between us. In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically-elected Iranian government.

[M.Dancer]

read the document... actually read it... relish in the U.S./CIA involvements in the initiation, planning and deployment of the overthrow of the democratically elected Iranian government

How could they overthrow what wasn't there? Remember? Parliament was colsed indefinately. Mossy had given himself extraordinary "emergency" powers ..ruled as a dictator.

I know i know...the myth must live...after all, mossy had a referendum...even won 99.9% of the vote....

[waldo]

ok, ok... don't read the document then

[eyeball]

You claimed it was a US Intititive, proven to be false.

Still, the C.I.A. took full credit inside the government.

Why would you provide a source that refutes what you're refuting? WTF is that all about?

It takes a big man to admit he is wrong...

WTF?

Edited September 17, 2009 by eyeball

[M.Dancer]

Why would you provide a source that refutes what you're refuting? WTF is that all about?

WTF?

I realize you have a hard time with simple concepts..up down etc etc.

The CIA of all the US agencies, took credit with in the US government. The CIA wasn't taking credit work done by the UK...

I can use crayons if this is to complicated for you.

[waldo]

Dancer... had a chance to read that document yet?

[M.Dancer]

Dancer... had a chance to read that document yet?

Nope. No need, as my reading it will not make your parroting sound any more original or correct.

Shall we go over it again?

Who initiated the operation?

Who requested aid?

What democratice government?

You don't need be covered in guilt to be a left winger, but it helps.

[waldo]

Nope. No need, as my reading it will not make your parroting sound any more original or correct.

Shall we go over it again?

Who initiated the operation?

Who requested aid?

What democratice government?

You don't need be covered in guilt to be a left winger, but it helps.

well - of course - understandable you wouldn't want to acknowledge the declassified CIA plan/narrative... in it's most inglorious in-depth magnitude! You know... the benign "aid" you finally acknowledged, after being pressed repeatedly throughout your shuckin and jivin routine. Oh wait, are you still running with the fable that the U.S./CIA didn't overthrow the Iranian government? Are you?

The initiation? Again - U.S. initiated... you could pin the first (Truman admin) coup musings on the British, but the U.S. didn't buy into that one. Under the changed U.S. admin, under Eisenhower... the U.S. owns that one.

The request? Not some mythical "unnamed Iranian general"... c'mon, read the document. Revel in the complete unawareness of the Shah... read about the uncertainty on how the CIA thought to broach the subject of the coup with the Shah, read about his reluctance, his unwillingness, his needing to be pushed/prodded to any participation.

The democratic government? Yes, the democratic government... many say so/many acknowledge such - just ask U.S. President Obama. Do you have anyone to trump Obama, Dancer?

For many years, Iran has defined itself in part by its opposition to my country, and there is indeed a tumultuous history between us. In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically-elected Iranian government.

[eyeball]

I realize you have a hard time with simple concepts..up down etc etc.

The CIA of all the US agencies, took credit with in the US government. The CIA wasn't taking credit work done by the UK...

Initiating a plan is somewhat different than actually carrying it out. I didn't see any mention in your article about British agents involved on the ground in the actual coup. "It was his idea" always sounds lame no matter who says it.

The CIA took full credit and now they own it.

I can use crayons if this is to complicated for you.

I doubt it.

[M.Dancer]

Initiating a plan is somewhat different than actually carrying it out. I didn't see any mention in your article about British agents involved on the ground in the actual coup.

You mean an article about the CIA's role in the 1953 iran operation didn't list MI 5 role?

And you are surprised...

Right, crayons won't do, I'' get chalk

The United States' Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) overthrew the government of the popular Prime Minister Mosaddeq at the request of, and with minor support from the British government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_...d'%C3%A9tat

[M.Dancer]

Do you have anyone to trump Obama, Dancer?

Mossy. He's the one who rigged the refendum, he's the one how closed the parliament.

Obama is a fool.

[waldo]

The democratic government? Yes, the democratic government... many say so/many acknowledge such - just ask U.S. President Obama. Do you have anyone to trump Obama, Dancer?

For many years, Iran has defined itself in part by its opposition to my country, and there is indeed a tumultuous history between us. In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically-elected Iranian government.

Mossy. He's the one who rigged the refendum, he's the one how closed the parliament.

Obama is a fool.

notwithstanding your personal opinion of the current U.S. President, presuming to counter Obama's precise and purposeful wording... you offer up the former Iranian leader and an action he took in response to becoming aware of the still formative beginning stages of the U.S./CIA coup overthrow of his government. You coughed this up once previously and I called you on it then... again, irony of ironies, that you would attempt to substantiate the basis for the coup... the overthrow... on a subsequent reaction to that coup - to that overthrow. Clearly you don't even know the time-lines involved!

as for your (other) continued blabbering... your, uhhh... "wiki" article carries a class C quality designation as well as a "factual accuracy is disputed" tag

and whether you prefer crayons... or chalk... your designation is incorrect => MI5 is domestic... MI6 is foreign intelligence

do you need a shovel - for the hole you're in?

[M.Dancer]

do you need a shovel - for the hole you're in?

'The ending of democrtacy wasm't the reason for the coup, it was Mossy's unconstitutional siezure of authority and the theft of private property.

Now I realize you are okay with injustice, that the subsequent rise in the standard of living is every leftists nightmare....but enough games.

The US and the UK did the right thing at the right time and any US president who offeres a snivelling apology is no better and just as foolish as the idiot cringing leftists who snivel about it taday.

[waldo]

'The ending of democrtacy wasm't the reason for the coup, it was Mossy's unconstitutional siezure of authority and the theft of private property.

Now I realize you are okay with injustice, that the subsequent rise in the standard of living is every leftists nightmare....but enough games.

The US and the UK did the right thing at the right time and any US president who offeres a snivelling apology is no better and just as foolish as the idiot cringing leftists who snivel about it taday.

any actions taken by Mosaddeq, right or wrong (from what ever perspective) must be considered responsive to his discovering a coup was being hatched to overthrow his government.

leftist? Really, why go there... that subsequent rise in the standard of living you speak of was paralleled with the ever increasing Iranian peoples resistance towards the Shah's brutal and corrupt government, culminating in the 79 revolution and the creation of the Islamic republic of Iran. Apparently, your "right thing at the right time" hasn't quite worked out - has it?

again, you throw the leftist label - you're a sour man. I didn't directly hear an Obama apology to Iran... I heard him acknowledge the U.S. involvement in overthrowing the Iranian government in 53. The Iran references within Obama's speech played second to the main speech itself - an Obama speech that was intended to show the U.S. desire for a more open dialog with the Muslim world.

and for what its worth, there was no sniveling offered/shown... I simply needed to correct your wild revisionism and offer a complete and definitive source to refute your suggestion/inference that the U.S./CIA did not initiate/did not plan/did not execute the coup to overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran. You're welcome.

[M.Dancer]

any actions taken by Mosaddeq, right or wrong (from what ever perspective) must be considered responsive to his discovering a coup was being hatched to overthrow his government.

I guess you are unfamiliar with the timeline. There was no coup in the summer of 52 When Mossy took control of the army.

leftist? Really, why go there... that subsequent rise in the standard of living you speak of was paralleled with the ever increasing Iranian peoples resistance towards the Shah's brutal and corrupt government, culminating in the 79 revolution and the creation of the Islamic republic of Iran. Apparently, your "right thing at the right time" hasn't quite worked out - has it?

No. Please try again.

[waldo]

any actions taken by Mosaddeq, right or wrong (from what ever perspective) must be considered responsive to his discovering a coup was being hatched to overthrow his government.

I guess you are unfamiliar with the timeline. There was no coup in the summer of 52 When Mossy took control of the army.

as I've said a few times now, those Mosaddeq actions you so decry as "undemocratic", were responsive to a gained knowledge of the formative coup... in fact... if you actually read the declassified CIA document you will understand the complete circumstances of the initial failed coup attempt and the multitude of steps taken to simply get the Shah engaged as a reluctant participant. This was a covert coup that was not... completely covert.

leftist? Really, why go there... that subsequent rise in the standard of living you speak of was paralleled with the ever increasing Iranian peoples resistance towards the Shah's brutal and corrupt government, culminating in the 79 revolution and the creation of the Islamic republic of Iran. Apparently, your "right thing at the right time" hasn't quite worked out - has it?

No. Please try again.

oh really... many connect those dots that put the Shah in power to, ultimately, the 79 Iranian Revolution that helped to spawn the rise of the theocratic Iranian government and the foundations of Islamic fundamentalist political movements. CIA meddling in the affairs of a democratically elected government... gets results!

[M.Dancer]

oh really... many connect those dots that put the Shah in power to, ultimately, the 79 Iranian Revolution that helped to spawn the rise of the theocratic Iranian government and the foundations of Islamic fundamentalist political movements. CIA meddling in the affairs of a democratically elected government... gets results!

Really. The same folks who brought the 79 islamic revolution were the ones opposed to Mossy. The fact they also opposed the Shah is not coincidental, but irrelevant.

Go figure indeed.