Army Guy Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 I'm with Jerry on this one, in fact it beats my current retirement scheme of buying Loto tickets.....In fact this good an excellent enconemy booster.....maybe we should make up the laws now that all this 2.5 mil must be spent in Canada.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
myata Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 I think a consular official should be aware of cultural differences, how a native born Canadian sees the world is different than others see it, being culturally aware/sensitive is critical...I can accept the average canadcian gives it no thought as evidenced here but government officials should be... Consular official should also be able to confirm the individual's connection to this country if valid grounds to suspect abuse do exist (such as e.g.: 1) not looking as your photo; 2) being shorter than your document says you to be). If none of these is a good question to establish person's connection to Canada, please name a few others that could be. Let's hear it, now. Or shall we just admit and apologise to anybody who shows up at the border with what looks like a Canadian passport, no matter what they look like, or what they had to say? Would that be a fair solution, in your view? Btw, why bother sticking the picture, or any other information in there anyways, shouldn't just take any piece of paper as a proof of their Canadian citizenship, espcially if their "cultural differences" say that's what we should do (i.e they do)? Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 I think your arguments are hogwash and simply another example of excuse making design to allow individuals to evade responsibilities for their choices. Anyone who had been in the country as she had should have been able to answer some or all of the questions. I also think that the majority of people feel the same way and it is the majority opinion that decides what "reasonable" is when it comes to deciding whether the consular officials acted reasonably. the majority at one time thought the earth was flat...the majority at one time didn't believe in CC...the majority of americans believe a 900yr old man built a boat and put two of every species on it and fed them for forty days and nights while the entire planet was covered in water....the majority of Canadians don't understand nuclear physics does that mean it doesn't exist ... justice doesn't care what the majority think only what is right and wrong... being in the majority doesn't make you right Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
myata Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 I.e. "justice" is to acknowledge everybody who'd be showing up at a consulate abroad with a piece of paper, as a legitimate citizen of this country. That's clear. What isn't clear (to me) is how far the officials should (are obliged) to go to meet requests of people without legitimate documentation prooving that they are citizens of the country? I.e. does / should Canada have any obligations (at all, whatsover) toward anybody in such situation who isn't fully cooperating, ie., 1) presenting all required documents 2) answering any reasonable questions and 3) fully cooperating with any other reasonable requests from officials. My answer to that would be clear and firm "No". You got yourself in trouble; you aren't in full coopperation with country's officials; => you're on your own, period. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Keepitsimple Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 the majority at one time thought the earth was flat...the majority at one time didn't believe in CC...the majority of americans believe a 900yr old man built a boat and put two of every species on it and fed them for forty days and nights while the entire planet was covered in water....the majority of Canadians don't understand nuclear physics does that mean it doesn't exist ...justice doesn't care what the majority think only what is right and wrong... being in the majority doesn't make you right Wryly....I like Kimmy's question - which you have not yet answered. In your opinion, what would be a good set of questions to ask someone who is suspected of being an imposter? Perhaps you can offer up 5 or 10 "general" questions that would either support their position or further lead one to believe that the person is not who they claim to be. Let Suaad, lets assume they have been in Canada, in the same city, for 10 years. What questions would you ask to protect Canada from imposters? Quote Back to Basics
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 Consular official should also be able to confirm the individual's connection to this country if valid grounds to suspect abuse do exist (such as e.g.: 1) not looking as your photo; 2) being shorter than your document says you to be).If none of these is a good question to establish person's connection to Canada, please name a few others that could be. Let's hear it, now. Or shall we just admit and apologise to anybody who shows up at the border with what looks like a Canadian passport, no matter what they look like, or what they had to say? Would that be a fair solution, in your view? Btw, why bother sticking the picture, or any other information in there anyways, shouldn't just take any piece of paper as a proof of their Canadian citizenship, espcially if their "cultural differences" say that's what we should do (i.e they do)? that's true but who approves your photo on your passport? the government...I don't think my passport photo looks like me now and in five years it will look less like me, is it my fault? they took my picture and approved it...and people do make errors in size, Canadians still measure themselves in feet and inches and then convert to metric, mistakes are routine, my height on the passport is out by 2.5-3cms... what questions would be acceptable, I would have thought those asked would be acceptable but taking the test myself I probably couldn't answer 75% accurately...so what works for most wouldn't work for me, obviously this is something that needs to addressed and changed... questions-be culturally aware of non native born Canadians, they likely will not see the world as you do...still questions are very fallible no matter what they are if there is collusion and fraud they can be memorized so they're a poor choice... solutions? better confirmation of info, if your going to record height do it officially in the passport office, be very fussy on the quality of the passport photo not "this is good enough", if it isn't do it again and get it right...passport finger prints, that won't appeal to people but the USA requires it for many countries...possibly a retinal scan at Canadian airports to be used at immigration authorities discretion,(very expensive option no doubt)... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 Wryly....I like Kimmy's question - which you have not yet answered. In your opinion, what would be a good set of questions to ask someone who is suspected of being an imposter? Perhaps you can offer up 5 or 10 "general" questions that would either support their position or further lead one to believe that the person is not who they claim to be. Let Suaad, lets assume they have been in Canada, in the same city, for 10 years. What questions would you ask to protect Canada from imposters? I doubt there are 10 questions you could be sure of getting an acceptable answer for that would suit everyone...how do you determine the passing grade?...I can't recall birthday details but I recall the number of medical people at each birth, 2 at the first, 17 in another, 8 at the last...so questions that most could answer and I could not and details of births I'm sure very few others would recall and I can... instead of questions maybe let the person give evidence that only she would know which can be confirmed... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Keepitsimple Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 I doubt there are 10 questions you could be sure of getting an acceptable answer for that would suit everyone...how do you determine the passing grade?...I can't recall birthday details but I recall the number of medical people at each birth, 2 at the first, 17 in another, 8 at the last...so questions that most could answer and I could not and details of births I'm sure very few others would recall and I can...instead of questions maybe let the person give evidence that only she would know which can be confirmed... Like: 1) What's your son's birthday? 2) Where was he born? 3) When were you married? Quote Back to Basics
M.Dancer Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 Like:1) What's your son's birthday? 2) Where was he born? 3) When were you married? What is the approxiamte address of the branch you opened up your banking account? What was the price of gas when you left? What was your weekly salary? What was your montly rent? What and where did you do your groceries? Who is your son's principal? What or who is your landlord? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 Like:1) What's your son's birthday? 2) Where was he born? 3) When were you married? is this sooo difficult a concept to understand? what is important to you is not important to everyone else...who won the Stanley Cup last year? I have no idea because I DON'T CARE! just because you may is meaningless to me... I know the answers to these questions do you???? if you don't may be you're a fraud that needs to be thrown in prison... 1) how many people were in the delivery room of your 2nd childs birth? 2) what colour is the house five doors down from your home on the opposite side of the street. 3) what's the make and model of your neighbours motorcycle and how many CC displacement. 4) what was your DL number when you moved from another province 9 years ago? Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Guest American Woman Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 because you're assuming she attaches the same value to things as you do, you don't know what is important to her or her situation...you're prejudging her... You need to get off the "victim" bandwagon. I'm not "prejudging" her by stating a fact. It is necessary to know your child's date of birth-- again, as YOU said -- for school registration and official documents. So it's not up to HER to decide if knowing his birthday is important or not; the government, by requiring it for his education, has deemed it important. So again. It's not about whether or not she attaches the same value to things as I do. It's about what the government attaches importance/value to. again you don't know her culture and are prejudging...there is no assumption of innocence on your part but there is evidentally a suspicion of guilt with no evidence. I have no assumption of her innocence OR guilt. You are the one making the assumptions. You are assuming I have found her guilty simply because I am questioning her inability to answer personal questions and because of the discrepancy in her height. Because you can't explain her not knowing what she does at work, because you can't explain her difference in height, because you can't explain why she wouldn't know where her son was born, you simply don't comment on those things, but rather bring up issues that I've never even commented on in your responses to me. your predjudice is evident in your previous statements...I have never claimed she was innocent or guilty... I never said you have claimed she was innocent or guilty, unlike you, who have wrongly judged me with your accusation that I have found her guilty. And now you're accusing me of "prejudice?" You, who thinks the government has to prove that she wasn't subjected to racism, are going to accuse ME of having prejudice? Because I question her inability to answer personal questions? Give me a break. You, who lecture others not to prejudge, are guilty of the very thing you falsely accuse others of. We both live in free countries. People are free to THINK and question what they read in the news. With this lawsuit, Mohamud has opened herself up to public scrutiny. You may not think people have a right to discuss what's in the news, but you are the one who is wrong. Furthermore, just because someone doesn't see things the way you do doesn't mean they have "judged," or "found her guilty." Like I said, get off the "victimization" kick. the government only requests information not that I memorize it... Again, a mother who has written down her child's DOB countless times over the course of ten years, yet can't remember it, even though she managed to pass a citizenship exam, is a curiosity to me. I find the fact that she evidently couldn't answer personal questions, including where her son was born, worth having a red flag raised. What personal questions do you think she would have been capable of answering, or do you think she should be excused from knowing any personal information about her life? I'll ask again and see if you ignore me yet again (and I'm talking about a "what if," not this case, so spare me your accusations: What if someone who couldn't answer those questions turned out not to be the person on the passport in question, and they committed a horrible crime in Canada, resulting in deaths? You think customs/the Canadian government wouldn't be highly criticized for not questioning/detaining that person?? Quote
Riverwind Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 the majority at one time thought the earth was flat...And at that time it would be reasonable to hold such a belief.justice doesn't care what the majority think only what is right and wrong...Justice has rules and standards of evidence. In this situation the question that needs to be answered is whether the consular had a reasonable basis to suspect fraud. If they did the inconvenience that she went through while the consular officials investigated her case was understandable and she has no claim against the government. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
M.Dancer Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 1) how many people were in the delivery room of your 2nd childs birth?2) what colour is the house five doors down from your home on the opposite side of the street. 3) what's the make and model of your neighbours motorcycle and how many CC displacement. 4) what was your DL number when you moved from another province 9 years ago? 1) 4...not counting tyhe boy 2) white 3) No motorcycle, on my right they have a mercedez SUV and on the left a porche boxster 4) Don't have one Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 What is the approxiamte address of the branch you opened up your banking account?What was the price of gas when you left? What was your weekly salary? What was your montly rent? What and where did you do your groceries? Who is your son's principal? What or who is your landlord? bank-don't know, but I know how to get there gas-no idea, I just pay by cc amount doesn't matter it has to be paid salary-no idea changes every week $0 to $$,$$$.00 rent-mortgage, no idea wife pays it... groceries-safeway, costco, Coop, SuperStore principal-no idea, don't care, doesn't matter landlord-bank hmm 1.5 out of 7... do I go to prison? Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
M.Dancer Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 bank-don't know, but I know how to get theregas-no idea, I just pay by cc amount doesn't matter it has to be paid salary-no idea changes every week $0 to $$,$$$.00 rent-mortgage, no idea wife pays it... groceries-safeway, costco, Coop, SuperStore principal-no idea, don't care, doesn't matter landlord-bank hmm 1.5 out of 7... do I go to prison? 1) Describe how to get there 2) Give an average 3) What was last years income 4) Lucky you 5) Describe how to get to safeway etc 6) It does matter 7) how would you know, your wife takes care of you? Yeah I would suspect anyone who prevaricated as much as that to be dishonest. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 1) 4...not counting tyhe boy2) white 3) No motorcycle, on my right they have a mercedez SUV and on the left a porche boxster 4) Don't have one and that for me is more reliable than questions someone else thinks that matter...you're telling me what you know because those things are obscure and pertinent in your life...who else would know that and each could be confirmed...an impostor you would think would try memorize things like your kids birthday and marriage dates, not what cars your neighbours drive..or how many Md's in the delivery room, who else would know that but you and your spouse.... for detailed dates(birthdays)needed on government forums I don't memorize them I have them on my health services card my entire family is listed but using the governments method pulling that out would cheating and admitting I'm a fraud which is a ridiculous argument... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
M.Dancer Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 for detailed dates(birthdays)needed on government forums I don't memorize them I have them on my health services card my entire family is listed but using the governments method pulling that out would cheating and admitting I'm a fraud which is a ridiculous argument... A mother not remembering her children's birthdate, or the college she claims to go to, or her professors name beggers credibility. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 for detailed dates(birthdays)needed on government forums I don't memorize them I have them on my health services card my entire family is listed but using the governments method pulling that out would cheating and admitting I'm a fraud which is a ridiculous argument... I take it around birthdays your kids experiance quite a bit of saddness... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 1) Describe how to get there2) Give an average 3) What was last years income 4) Lucky you 5) Describe how to get to safeway etc 6) It does matter 7) how would you know, your wife takes care of you? Yeah I would suspect anyone who prevaricated as much as that to be dishonest. 1)r, r, l, l, r,r,r,l,r 2)seriously no idea, more than .70 pl 3) no idea,don't care wife is an accountant, what's mine is hers so it doesn't matter 4)- 5)down the hill 6)for you sure, for me not at all 7)I sign the papers... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Argus Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 questions-be culturally aware of non native born Canadians, they likely will not see the world as you do...)... Ahh, I see. So what you're saying is that the problem lies in trying to ask questions which a Canadian woujld know, when the subject of those question has little or no knowledge or understanding of anything to do with Canada or Canadians, their geography, their culture, their politics or institutions? But wait, aren't immigrants CANADIANS? Shouldn't she, after 10 years, be fully adapted and acclimated to Canada? Because the only reason anyone with more IQ than a halfwit wouldn't be able to answer those questions - aside from fraud - would be that they lived within Canada's territory, but as a foreigner, in a foreign ghetto, having virtually no interaction with the Canada the rest of us live in. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 A mother not remembering her children's birthdate, or the college she claims to go to, or her professors name beggers credibility. I know a genius MD who didn't know how to install a Fl light bulb, an engineer that did not know how to start a lawnmower, a military person who in his twenties wasn't aware you should put a shower curtain on the inside of tub when showering...a mechanic who thought by putting anti freeze in a tire you could winterize it and many people happily paid for that service...another adult 30ish who had know idea who the PM of Canada was(Trudeau at the time).. these things all begger belief but there you go, you can't assume what you know is common knowledge or matters to others.. Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
noahbody Posted October 8, 2009 Author Report Posted October 8, 2009 I know a genius MD who didn't know how to install a Fl light bulb, an engineer that did not know how to start a lawnmower, a military person who in his twenties wasn't aware you should put a shower curtain on the inside of tub when showering...a mechanic who thought by putting anti freeze in a tire you could winterize it and many people happily paid for that service...another adult 30ish who had know idea who the PM of Canada was(Trudeau at the time).. these things all begger belief but there you go, you can't assume what you know is common knowledge or matters to others.. Don't forget the guy down the hall who thinks he's Ethel Merman. Quote
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 Ahh, I see. So what you're saying is that the problem lies in trying to ask questions which a Canadian woujld know, when the subject of those question has little or no knowledge or understanding of anything to do with Canada or Canadians, their geography, their culture, their politics or institutions?But wait, aren't immigrants CANADIANS? Shouldn't she, after 10 years, be fully adapted and acclimated to Canada? Because the only reason anyone with more IQ than a halfwit wouldn't be able to answer those questions - aside from fraud - would be that they lived within Canada's territory, but as a foreigner, in a foreign ghetto, having virtually no interaction with the Canada the rest of us live in. I'm quite confident the majority of native born Canadians could not pass the citizenship test... is 10 yrs a long time? have you ever lived in a foreign country, unknown language, completely alien value system, different bureaucracy...try it before you assume how easy it is... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Guest American Woman Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 Don't forget the guy down the hall who thinks he's Ethel Merman. Quote
Mr.Canada Posted October 8, 2009 Report Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) I know a genius MD who didn't know how to install a Fl light bulb, an engineer that did not know how to start a lawnmower, a military person who in his twenties wasn't aware you should put a shower curtain on the inside of tub when showering...a mechanic who thought by putting anti freeze in a tire you could winterize it and many people happily paid for that service...another adult 30ish who had know idea who the PM of Canada was(Trudeau at the time).. these things all begger belief but there you go, you can't assume what you know is common knowledge or matters to others.. But not to know her owns kids names and birthdays? I've never heard of a mother who didn't know the answers to those questions. If this women is mentally ill, I'll cut her some slack otherwise her mental prowess is left wanting. Are we really choosing the smartest people into Canada? Edited October 8, 2009 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
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