Muslim Honor Killing in Kingston

[jbg]

English with a thick French accent. Or, maybe at times Franglais.

Trudeau and, I understand, St. Laurent sounded nothing like that.

What language do you think thick accented people from Louisiana or Texas speak?

As the song by Alabama, "My Home's in Alabama" goes, they speak "Southern English". Excerpts below, link:

Oh I'll speak my

Southern English

just as natural as I please

I'm in the heart of Dixie, Dixie's in the heart of me

And someday when I make it, when love finds a way

Somewhere high on Lookout Mountain I'll just smile with pride and say that my

Home's in Alabama, no matter where I lay my head

My home's in Alabama, Southern born and Southern bred

Southern born and Southern bred

Southern born and Southern bred

[Evening Star]

Come now, surely no one would claim that Trudeau spoke English with a thick French Canadian accent.

[g_bambino]

You are being rather thick. They are indeed part of a culture. Understand?

I'm not thick enough to know that's not what you said.

But, of course I knew you were trying to slander an entire group of people - either Muslims or, perhaps, Afghan Muslims, specifically - with the actions of three people. I just wanted to draw it out of you.

[g_bambino]

Trudeau and, I understand, St. Laurent sounded nothing like that.

So? And what does this have to do with the spelling of "honour", anyway? Do you think "honour" with a "u" defines the "Canadian language" apart from the English language because Chretien put emphasis on that vowel when speaking that word?

[jbg]

So? And what does this have to do with the spelling of "honour", anyway? Do you think "honour" with a "u" defines the "Canadian language" apart from the English language because Chretien put emphasis on that vowel when speaking that word?

No. Because when he spoke Canadian no one could understand him.

[Guest Peeves]

I'm not thick enough to know that's not what you said.

But, of course I knew you were trying to slander an entire group of people - either Muslims or, perhaps, Afghan Muslims, specifically - with the actions of three people. I just wanted to draw it out of you.

Yeh that's why I referenced Indians and others.

[g_bambino]

Yeh that's why I referenced Indians and others.

No, actually you didn't. You said "So much for this cultures respect for life and Canada's laws [emphasis mine]"; you referred to a single, specific culture.

[Guest Peeves]

Not at all. If someone asks me if I "know of" a crime, I may say truthfully that I don't. Without context it's hard to tell.

What does that mean ? Murder happens everywhere, and for culturally specific reasons. Honour killing is wrong because it's killing.

There's no way to measure the worth of a culture as much as someone might like to do so. People aren't worse than others. Instead, people look at other cultures as inferior as a way of feeling better about themselves. But that's not what I did. I referenced particularly objectionable customs of several societies. Afghanistan is not only pointed out. That happens to be where these murderers came from. Other honor killings in Canada and elsewhere in the West are by immigrants from other countries, not all Muslim.

You chose to muddy the waters.

"I may say truthfully that I don't. Without context it's hard to tell."

But it is in context. Honor killings are hardly unknown by any even Canadians. I maintain that only a hermit or one illiterate and unable to read in any country today would not know of honor killings.

Are you seriously suggesting they had not heard of honor killings? Even though their interviewed relatives shared that opinion on the need to defend honor by murder? Even though other countries admit it occurs but condemn it. Even though trial after trial has convicted those that have committed honor killings?

Are you seriously attempting to mitigate their knowledge and participation in the honor killings?

If so, it's a fools errand. Thousands are claimed to be killed annually world wide for honor in readily available stats provided by ethnic sites.

[jbg]

Come now, surely no one would claim that Trudeau spoke English with a thick French Canadian accent.

I didn't. I was saying that Chretien was speaking in the Canadian language; Trudeau spoke French and some English.

[Michael Hardner]

"I may say truthfully that I don't. Without context it's hard to tell."

But it is in context. Honor killings are hardly unknown by any even Canadians. I maintain that only a hermit or one illiterate and unable to read in any country today would not know of honor killings.

"I don't know of any personally." Anyway, you're likely right that he lied.

Are you seriously suggesting they had not heard of honor killings? Even though their interviewed relatives shared that opinion on the need to defend honor by murder? Even though other countries admit it occurs but condemn it. Even though trial after trial has convicted those that have committed honor killings?

No, I'm not saying that.

Are you seriously attempting to mitigate their knowledge and participation in the honor killings?

If so, it's a fools errand. Thousands are claimed to be killed annually world wide for honor in readily available stats provided by ethnic sites.

No.

[PIK]

Some on the left must be upset about this verdict.

[Guest Peeves]

No, actually you didn't. You said "So much for this cultures respect for life and Canada's laws [emphasis mine]"; you referred to a single, specific culture.

So point out where I said Afghanistan specifically.

The culture of honor killing is wide spread in countries.

[g_bambino]

So point out where I said Afghanistan specifically.

You didn't say the word "Afghanistan"; nobody claimed you did. What you did do was make reference to a singular culture ("this culture [again, emphais mine]") and mentioned "Islamic families" in the context of the conviction of three Afghan Muslims for a so-called honour killing.

[jacee]

Some on the left must be upset about this verdict.

Unh ... no.

Premeditated murder of women and girls by a sick and violent control creep isn't a "cause".

Pretending he did it because of his "culture" is just blaming others for something heinous that he, and only he, orchestrated, completed and celebrated.

[Guest Peeves]

Some on the left must be upset about this verdict.

As usual the common denominator is don't criticize a particular group on penalty of attack by apologists and enablers.

Do they really think they can divert the matter to a criticism of the poster? An honest question is one thing, I respect that and respond, but looking to turn it into a condemnation of the poster or the heinous subject is quite jejune and hardly worth the bother.

Many countries and differing religions have certain objectionable customs within their societies that the states themselves condemn.Sometimes when immigrating, they take these customs with them.

Customs within cultures practice abhorrent acts/practices like FGM, Honor Killing, and caste systems as well as the once custom in India till the 19th century of Sati, or Western witch burning if you will. Most civilized country have outlawed the acts, but they go on as here in Canada.

Those that find fault with any referencing these distasteful-hateful customs are of course simply attempting to misdirect by making it about bigotry, Islamophobia or racism.

They seldom have enough intelligence to understand either the subject or to present anything but off point accusations.

Human Rights Watch defines "honor killings" as follows:

"Honor killings are acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband—or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life."[7]

The loose term "honor killing" applies to killing of both males and females in cultures that practice it.[8] For example, during the year 2002 in Pakistan, it is estimated that 245 women and 137 men were killed in the name of Karo-kari in Sindh[citation needed].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

Note the list of offensive acts perpetrated by some cultural customs in SOME societies

Culture

Part of a series on Violence against women

Issues

Acid throwing · Breast ironing

Bride-buying · Bride burning

Dating violence · Domestic violence

Dowry death · Honor killing

Female genital mutilation

(Gishiri cutting · Infibulation)

Foot binding · Forced prostitution

Human trafficking · Marital rape

Murder of pregnant women

Rape · Sati · Sexual slavery

Sexual violence

Violence against prostitutes

Category

Violence against women

Other

Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University, says that honor killing is:

A complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society. .. What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honour killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power.[11]

An Amnesty International statement adds:

The regime of honour is unforgiving: women on whom suspicion has fallen are not given an opportunity to defend themselves, and family members have no socially acceptable alternative but to remove the stain on their honour by attacking the woman.[12]

Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban, an anthropology professor at Rhode Island College, explains how honor killings can be viewed in cultural relativist terms. She writes that the act, or even alleged act, of any female sexual misconduct, upsets moral order for the culture of interest and bloodshed is the only way to remove any shame brought upon by the actions and restore social equilibrium.[13]

[bush_cheney2004]

Krikey...whatever happened to multiculturalism? I can see how breast-ironing would be painful, but what about breast motor-boating, which is popular in my "culture"?

[Guest Peeves]

You didn't say the word "Afghanistan"; nobody claimed you did. What you did do was make reference to a singular culture ("this culture [again, emphais mine]") and mentioned "Islamic families" in the context of the conviction of three Afghan Muslims for a so-called honour killing.

He along with hundreds of others that behave similarly in certain cultures.

The only pretense is his in claiming he never heard of what is an all too common occurrence.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/father-accused-of-honour-killings-called-eldest-daughter-a-whore/article2235556/

Father accused of honour killings called eldest daughter a ‘whore’

In the days leading up to the July, 2009, arrest of an Afghan-Canadian businessman and his wife and son, all accused of jointly murdering four family members, the man’s conscience was clear because the victims had violated every decent principle, he said in wiretapped conversations.

“It was all treason, they committed treason from beginning to end,” Mohammad Shafia told the other two accused, as police listened in. “They betrayed humankind, they betrayed Islam, they betrayed our religion and creed, they betrayed our tradition, they betrayed everything.”

Emphasis mine. Note Bene; "Tradition", "Religion", "Creed" and "they betrayed Islam."

Res ipsa loquitur.

Islam and honor killings

Leading Muslim thinkers wholeheartedly endorsed the Canadian judge's verdict, insisting that "honor murders" had no place and no support in Islam.

"There is nothing in the Quran that justifies honor killings. There is nothing that says you should kill for the honor of the family," said Taj Hargey, director of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford in England.

"This idea that 'somehow a girl has besmirched our honor and therefore the thing to do is kill her' is bizarre, and Muslims should stop using this defense," he said, arguing that the practice is cultural, not religious in origin.

"You cannot say this is what Islam approves of. You can say this is what their culture approves of," he said.

The Shafia family is originally from Afghanistan.

Experts say honor murders take place in many parts of the world.

"It's definitely a problem that happens in many different places: the Middle East, Pakistan, Bangladesh and among immigrant communities in North America," said Nadya Khalife, a researcher on women's rights in the Arab world for Human Rights Watch.

Several Arab countries and territories, including Iraq, Kuwait, Syria, Yemen and the Palestinian territories, have laws providing lesser sentences for honor murders than for other murders, Human Rights Watch says.

Egypt and Jordan also have laws that have been interpreted to allow reduced sentences for honor crimes, the group says.

Reliable figures of the number of honor murders are hard to come by, Khalife said, but she pointed to a United Nations Population Fund estimate of 5,000 per year.

Khalife agreed that the practice should not be blamed on Islam.

"It's not linked to religion; it's more cultural," she said. "There have been several Islamic scholars who have issued fatwas against honor killing."

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/30/islam-doesnt-justify-honor-murders-experts-insist/

Emphasis mine, and that's all the time I intend to waste on this clear and compellable conclusion.

[g_bambino]

He along with hundreds of others that behave similarly in certain cultures.

Except you didn't say "cultures", you said "culture" - "this culture", to be precise - and did so in the specific context of an honour killing murder case involving three Afghan Muslims.

[guyser]

As usual the common denominator is don't criticize a particular group on penalty of attack by apologists and enablers.

Except many in that particular group dont do any harm but as part of that group by your definition they do.

Customs within cultures practice abhorrent acts/practices like FGM, Honor Killing, and caste systems as well as the once custom in India till the 19th century of Sati, or Western witch burning if you will. Most civilized country have outlawed the acts, but they go on as here in Canada.

Canada allows FGMHonour killings withc burning? Cool, gots to get me a witch to burn.

They seldom have enough intelligence to understand either the subject or to present anything but off point accusations.

Speaking of which.....

Acid throwing · Breast ironing

Bride-buying · Bride burning

Dating violence · Domestic violence

Dowry death · Honor killing

Female genital mutilation

(Gishiri cutting · Infibulation)

Foot binding · Forced prostitution

Human trafficking · Marital rape

Murder of pregnant women

Rape · Sati · Sexual slavery

Sexual violence

Violence against prostitutes

Category

Violence against women

Other

All occur in Canada. I suppose by your own definition, you are involved with thsoe acts.

Edited February 2, 2012 by guyser

[Guest Manny]

That's like saying it's part of Italian culture, because the mafia routinely does honour killing.

[Guest Manny]

I don't think anyone questioned the title of this thread.

[Michael Hardner]

That's like saying it's part of Italian culture, because the mafia routinely does honour killing.

It's exactly like that - and Edward Greenspan addressed this specific example in his book. In 1980 there was a clear prejudice that southern Italian culture was linked with organized crime - an assertion that was unprovable and unfair.

[Scotty]

It's exactly like that - and Edward Greenspan addressed this specific example in his book. In 1980 there was a clear prejudice that southern Italian culture was linked with organized crime - an assertion that was unprovable and unfair.

I would suggest a similar assertion with regard to the Muslim world community in general has considerably more evidence to back it up.

[Scotty]

Afghan Embassy speaks out against Shafia murders

The Afghan Embassy in Ottawa is condemning the murders of four members of a Montreal family originally from Afghanistan.

In a statement released Tuesday, the embassy calls the deaths of the three teenaged sisters and their father's first wife "a heinous crime against humanity."

The embassy says this kind of crime is not part of Afghan or Islamic culture and "is not acceptable in any way."

Not part of Afghan culture!? Have you read anything about Afghan culture and how women are treated there?! This is entirely in keeping with Afghan culture, a place where a woman who reports being raped can and is sent to prison.

[Scotty]

There's no way to measure the worth of a culture as much as someone might like to do so. People aren't worse than others. Instead, people look at other cultures as inferior as a way of feeling better about themselves.

If you don't think the culture of Afghanistan or Pakistan is inferior to ours then you have simply made a very conscious derision to abstain from all judgement. That's very politically correct but also quite intellectually bankrupt.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Scotty