Muslim Honor Killing in Kingston

[Guest Manny]

Do they not have the option of appeal?

Of course they do. But even besides that, the brother will only be about 45 when he finishes serving his sentence.

[GostHacked]

Do they not have the option of appeal?

The option is there. The verdict would be the same.

[g_bambino]

The option is there. The verdict would be the same.

Is that guaranteed? I've followed this case pretty closely, and it struck me that the evidence is mostly circumstantial; it couldn't even be determined if the women were drowned before or after the car they were in ended up in the canal, not to mention the complete lack of information about the cause of the marks three of them had on their heads. I thought that this trial might result in an acquittal, since there simply wasn't enough irrefutable evidence to lay a solid conviction. I now wonder if an appeal trial might not issue a different ruling for those reasons.

[ed.: +]

Edited January 30, 2012 by g_bambino

[capricorn]

I now wonder if an appeal trial might not issue a different ruling for those reasons.

[ed.: +]

Everything I have read and heard indicates that the only grounds for appeal in this case would consist of a reviewable error committed by the Trial Judge. For example, admissibility of evidence or improper advice to jurors. It would a sad state of affairs if an Appeal Judge had the power and authority to overrule the verdict of a jury just because he/she interpreted the evidence differently than the jury.

[Boges]

I'm sure this was addressed at some point in the previous 40+ pages but someone at the Montreal Children's Services should be made an example of because of this.

The girls knew something like this was could potentially happened but because of "Cultural Sensitivity" they did nothing.

I bet if this guy was white or if he had, heaven forbid, spanked the girls, he'd have been arrested on the spot.

[guyser]

I'm sure this was addressed at some point in the previous 40+ pages but someone at the Montreal Children's Services should be made an example of because of this.

I doubt the CAS's mandate is to be pre-emptive when , for all acoounts, they were fed, housed, clothed, realtively happy kids with no signs of abuse.

It isnt..." We think you will hurt your kids, and we have zero proof and zero evidence of such"

[Boges]

I doubt the CAS's mandate is to be pre-emptive when , for all acoounts, they were fed, housed, clothed, realtively happy kids with no signs of abuse.

It isnt..." We think you will hurt your kids, and we have zero proof and zero evidence of such"

What the fact that they were deathly afraid of their father and brothers didn't count?

[guyser]

What the fact that they were deathly afraid of their father and brothers didn't count?

Absent of any scars, bruises,evidence of physical distress?

I doubt it. Lots of girls are afraid of their fathers (maybe not like this one) , I had a gf who was, Daddy even prevented us from marrying.

(which come to think about it, I should thank him for that...but he's dead now)

[Guest American Woman]

Everything I have read and heard indicates that the only grounds for appeal in this case would consist of a reviewable error committed by the Trial Judge. For example, admissibility of evidence or improper advice to jurors. It would a sad state of affairs if an Appeal Judge had the power and authority to overrule the verdict of a jury just because he/she interpreted the evidence differently than the jury.

If an appeal is denied in one court, the Shafias could keep appealing to higher courts, dragging the process out for years. Bala [law professor at Queen's University] says the three have the resources to pay for legal appeals, and nothing but time. link

[sharkman]

I doubt the CAS's mandate is to be pre-emptive when , for all acoounts, they were fed, housed, clothed, realtively happy kids with no signs of abuse.

It isnt..." We think you will hurt your kids, and we have zero proof and zero evidence of such"

I heard recordings of the father on the news in which he was very abusive when speaking of his daughters, although I am not sure if any of the daughters were present at the time. However, if a father is going to call his own daughters whores and worse to acquaintences or co-workers, it's pretty likely that he was abusive to his daughters directly.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm sure this was addressed at some point in the previous 40+ pages but someone at the Montreal Children's Services should be made an example of because of this.

Before jumping to a conclusion as to what should happen, you might want to see what has happened up until now. I'm not saying you're right or wrong - maybe you've already done this - but there's probably enough discussion material there for its own thread.

[guyser]

I heard recordings of the father on the news in which he was very abusive when speaking of his daughters, although I am not sure if any of the daughters were present at the time. However, if a father is going to call his own daughters whores and worse to acquaintences or co-workers, it's pretty likely that he was abusive to his daughters directly.

No argument there, however, wouold/could any of the recordings have been in CAS's hands? I doubt it.

Apart from that, any physical evidence? None I am aware of.

[GostHacked]

Absent of any scars, bruises,evidence of physical distress?

I doubt it. Lots of girls are afraid of their fathers (maybe not like this one) , I had a gf who was, Daddy even prevented us from marrying.

(which come to think about it, I should thank him for that...but he's dead now)

How would you account for mental abuse? Some scars are not visible to the eye.

[Guest American Woman]

How would you account for mental abuse? Some scars are not visible to the eye.

There has to be some proof of mental abuse, too. If every parent of every teenager who said they were afraid of their parents and/or that their parents were mean/abusive were investigated solely on the claim of the teenager, social services likely wouldn't have time to do anything else. It's all too easy to see these things in hindsight, but if every parent who ever had words with their teenagers or ever spoke ill of them out of anger had social services show up a their door, I'm sure there would be a lot of objection to that.

I'm not defending the father by any means, but as I said, hindsight is 20/20 - and there has to be a basis for social services to intervene.

[fellowtraveller]

Apart from that, any physical evidence? None I am aware of.

Yes, there was some, not much. By far the most damaging evidence was the bits of Lexus headlight plastic found at the locks. Thyese were certified as coming from the accuseds vehicle, which was not supposed to have ever been at the crime scene. The son had a complicated story whereby he had an accident at the locks but everybody was OK when he left. He picked up the pieces and lied about an accident in Montreal because he was afraid to tell his father he had damaged the SUV.

It is almost certainly after -the-fact drivel to explain the fragments.

What disturbs me a bit is that although that evidence and the subsequent chain of nonsense seriously compromises the son, it does not implicate the parents. There is little else to connect them directly to the crime.

They might do OK on appeal.

The Crown is not required to prove why the victims were killed or how. The Crownspeculates and theorizesthat the women were sedated with something(pharmacology tests indicated no evidence of drugs), drowned elsewhere enar the locks(no evidence of where or how), then placed in the car already dead and bumped into the locks. They further speculate and theorize on motive, but having a motive alone means nothing, you still need actual evidence. And there is little of that.

[Scotty]

So there's probably room for consecutive sentencing already in Canada? I want it used much more often. Maybe Harper should make it mandatory in cases like this honor killing one.

Consecutive sentences are not part of the law at the moment. However, they are part of the omnibus crime bill Harper is intent on passing.

[Topaz]

Does anyone know if they ever found the 17 Muslim girl that went missing last year in Toronto? Could the same thing happen to her if she disgraced her parents, especially her father? I think the last she was seen was going to the high school.

[Guest American Woman]

Consecutive sentences are not part of the law at the moment. However, they are part of the omnibus crime bill Harper is intent on passing.

But as I already pointed out, Russell Williams is serving two consecutive life sentences.

[capricorn]

But as I already pointed out, Russell Williams is serving two consecutive life sentences.

AW you pointed it out earlier and I provided a link to show that he is NOT serving 2 consecutive sentences, he is serving concurrent sentences for 2 murders and an array of other offences.

[guyser]

Yes, there was some, not much.

No no, you got confused w a sidebar we went down, relating to the CAS and if they should be involved long before the murders.

Go back, you;ll see what I mean.

[Guest American Woman]

AW you pointed it out earlier and I provided a link to show that he is NOT serving 2 consecutive sentences, he is serving concurrent sentences for 2 murders and an array of other offences.

I've read several sources that say he is serving two consecutive sentences, including the Ottawa Citizen. Weird.

[Yukon Jack]

Surely, the most blatant oxymoron is the expression "Honour Killing".

It could have been conceived only in the 'mind' of Muslims.

[The_Squid]

Surely, the most blatant oxymoron is the expression "Honour Killing".

It could have been conceived only in the 'mind' of Muslims.

So other religions murder people for better reasons than this?

[Michael Hardner]

Surely, the most blatant oxymoron is the expression "Honour Killing".

It could have been conceived only in the 'mind' of Muslims.

Absolutely incorrect. This happens in other cultures too.

[fellowtraveller]

I think of honour killings as more tribal/cultural than strictly religious.

Many women have been killed for infidelity by non-Muslims, and many women have been killed on suspicion of infidelity.

Some men too.

Edited January 30, 2012 by fellowtraveller