Bonam Posted July 20, 2009 Report Posted July 20, 2009 we might as well just join america. Would be a good, mutually beneficial, option. The US could use 13 more states. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Posted July 20, 2009 Would be a good, mutually beneficial, option. The US could use 13 more states. This is a oft read refrain from members, but "joining the US" really is not an option politically. I wonder why it is considered as a viable solution to domestic issues. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wild Bill Posted July 20, 2009 Report Posted July 20, 2009 This is a oft read refrain from members, but "joining the US" really is not an option politically. I wonder why it is considered as a viable solution to domestic issues. I too always get a smile when I hear this. I'm reminded of the story about the American Ambassador a couple of terms ago who was ambushed at a press scrum with the question "How would America feel about allowing Canada to join the Union?" He was surprised and blurted out what perhaps was actually an HONEST rather than a diplomatic answer. He said "I don't really know, but what would we do with all the welfare cases? It's rather sad that Canada makes such a big deal out of the idea, both as a threat and as an option. Yet we are so self-centred that we never consider if it's a good deal for Uncle Sam! Since we've deliberately made ourselves into a resource based economy, like any other third world nation, the US can buy anything they want from us at a competitive price. If they actually took us into their Union, they would get all our problems! Not just sad, but kind of arrogant, I think. We Canadians are like Hobbits. We only see our own Shire, which we take for granted as the best place to live in the world. We are protected from dangers we are ignorant about by others, the Rangers, who we seldom interact with but tend to dismiss as riffraff. Queer as news from Bree! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Smallc Posted July 20, 2009 Report Posted July 20, 2009 Oh yes, one of the 10%. I think you would find that the vast majority of Canadians would not want to joint the US. They like it here. We don't have a resource based economy. It's diversified, and until the recession was growing well. We have created something wonderful here, something that I doubt the majority of Canadians would ever give up. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) Oh yes, one of the 10%. I think you would find that the vast majority of Canadians would not want to joint the US. They like it here. We don't have a resource based economy. It's diversified, and until the recession was growing well. We have created something wonderful here, something that I doubt the majority of Canadians would ever give up. No doubt, but that really isn't the point. See Wild Bill's post above....the mere notion of such a thing routinely offered up as a viable option is very curious indeed, and bespeaks a permanent middling mind set. We see it in threads about the monarchy as well. Then there are the NAU types who want to include or exclude Mexico. The option doesn't exist...there is a border in many ways....time for those folks to understand what that means. There is no big brother to run to, nor should Canadians want there to be. Edited July 20, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wilber Posted July 20, 2009 Report Posted July 20, 2009 No doubt, but that really isn't the point. See Wild Bill's post above....the mere notion of such a thing routinely offered up as a viable option is very curious indeed, and bespeaks a permanent middling mind set. We see it in threads about the monarchy as well. Then there are the NAU types who want to include or exclude Mexico.The option doesn't exist...there is a border in many ways....time for those folks to understand what that means. There is no big brother to run to, nor should Canadians want there to be. Anything is possible and everything is negotiable but I've never seen conditions that would make it even a remote possibility in the foreseeable future. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Posted July 20, 2009 Anything is possible and everything is negotiable but I've never seen conditions that would make it even a remote possibility in the foreseeable future. Sure, but too often the context is either one of frustration or disgust with domestic circumstances and/or a dire "threat" to pick up marbles and leave, like a child threatening to run away from home. The only realistic scenario is separation from the federation via Clarity Act, not US statehood. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Topaz Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Posted July 20, 2009 I don't think the majority of US citizens would want to be joined up with Canada either. As far as the welfare, I think with the US has more of them than we do, after they have about 100X more people, they seem to want to use their military more and their budget for the military is over a trillion $$ and there's still too much differences in ways of thinking and living. Quote
Wilber Posted July 20, 2009 Report Posted July 20, 2009 Sure, but too often the context is either one of frustration or disgust with domestic circumstances and/or a dire "threat" to pick up marbles and leave, like a child threatening to run away from home.The only realistic scenario is separation from the federation via Clarity Act, not US statehood. No doubt you are right. The odds of all the provinces agreeing to such a thing en mass would be somewhat less than between slim and none Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Posted July 20, 2009 I don't think the majority of US citizens would want to be joined up with Canada either. As far as the welfare, I think with the US has more of them than we do, after they have about 100X more people, they seem to want to use their military more and their budget for the military is over a trillion $$ and there's still too much differences in ways of thinking and living. ...not to mention that Canadian math is apparently quite different from American math based on your post. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
zinc Posted July 21, 2009 Report Posted July 21, 2009 I don't think the majority of US citizens would want to be joined up with Canada either. As far as the welfare, I think with the US has more of them than we do, after they have about 100X more people, they seem to want to use their military more and their budget for the military is over a trillion $$ and there's still too much differences in ways of thinking and living. Exactly as I was thinking Quote
Guest TrueMetis Posted July 21, 2009 Report Posted July 21, 2009 I can't believe anyone thinks joining the U.S. is possible. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) I can't believe anyone thinks joining the U.S. is possible. It's easy to join....just log on to JoinThe USA.gov and type in the complete lyrics from the "The Ballad of Gilligan's Island". That's how Hawaii got to join. Edited July 21, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
M.Dancer Posted July 21, 2009 Report Posted July 21, 2009 ...not to mention that Canadian math is apparently quite different from American math based on your post. The reason you don't know that the US has over 3 billion people is the government is keeping it from you. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Argus Posted July 21, 2009 Report Posted July 21, 2009 The reason you don't know that the US has over 3 billion people is the government is keeping it from you. I guess those big deficits aren't really much of a problem with that many people paying them off! Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Army Guy Posted July 21, 2009 Report Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) you would think they should teach us this in school this is a mayjor issue in Canadian history, we learn about Russia, China, Japan and Brazil, I'm ashamed of who I am my uncle served in that batalion. Thank goodness for the internet to find the truth that just summed up my hatred for all Liberals, and a peice of crap uncle I have trying to potray a...peacekeeping good guy, my ass fawking murderer's! I no longer have respect for our millitary they are all scum! STupid sheep scum! Sorry i just could not let this one go, should have.... but it's like watching a car wreck.... One would assume that up until now you have had no interest in our own Canadian History, Let alone out military history ....so far pretty typical for a Canadian.... instead you've rely on simply stumbling upon these facts like just now.....Canada has been fighting in Afghan for well over 6 years now and your just clueing into "We are at WAR" today....a fact that most Canadians know by now.... And instead of doing any more research and finding out exactly what our nations soldiers have been doing in your countries name you've made "retarded" comments and pinned a label on them that is ill deserved....And then to say your Uncle is Crap for serving his nation, on a mission approve by the majority of Canadians....well is frankly disrespectful, and a few other discriptive words that come to mind.....words i normally save for young punks, or pukes like yourself who have not one clue on what is going on within thier own country, let alone what thier nation is doing in other parts of the world on thier behalf.... not that you care about anything other than what is happening inside your tiny little world that evolves around you....which shows us another one of your traits.... But i will tell you this, as much as it is going to piss you off....every soldier within our military soldiers on, here in Canada and abroad regardless of mission for each and every Canadian out there , and that includes punks like you....and we do it with pride, we do it because it is our honor to serve our nation and Canadians. even Canadians like you....We do it for many reasons, but one of them is not burying our heads up our asses for over 6 years like you have done... Our nation soldiers rely on Canadians like you to ensure we are not misused or deployed on missions that do not fit Canadian moral values....Thanks for waking the F***K up....maybe we should spark up another bowl of that stuff you've been on.... because it's been a long trip and maybe it's time for you to take another ....atleast until you grow up just alittle , aleast to come to the conclusion that your uncle has sacrificed alot for his country, something i'm sure you know nothing about....it is the men and women like him that built this nation , the same one we have today, and the same one that allows you to burn the flag or disrespect it's soldiers....and although these are rights that they have faught and died for i don't have to like it when when you abuse them... Edited July 21, 2009 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Jerry J. Fortin Posted July 22, 2009 Report Posted July 22, 2009 Sorry i just could not let this one go, should have.... but it's like watching a car wreck....One would assume that up until now you have had no interest in our own Canadian History, Let alone out military history ....so far pretty typical for a Canadian.... instead you've rely on simply stumbling upon these facts like just now.....Canada has been fighting in Afghan for well over 6 years now and your just clueing into "We are at WAR" today....a fact that most Canadians know by now.... And instead of doing any more research and finding out exactly what our nations soldiers have been doing in your countries name you've made "retarded" comments and pinned a label on them that is ill deserved....And then to say your Uncle is Crap for serving his nation, on a mission approve by the majority of Canadians....well is frankly disrespectful, and a few other discriptive words that come to mind.....words i normally save for young punks, or pukes like yourself who have not one clue on what is going on within thier own country, let alone what thier nation is doing in other parts of the world on thier behalf.... not that you care about anything other than what is happening inside your tiny little world that evolves around you....which shows us another one of your traits.... But i will tell you this, as much as it is going to piss you off....every soldier within our military soldiers on, here in Canada and abroad regardless of mission for each and every Canadian out there , and that includes punks like you....and we do it with pride, we do it because it is our honor to serve our nation and Canadians. even Canadians like you....We do it for many reasons, but one of them is not burying our heads up our asses for over 6 years like you have done... Our nation soldiers rely on Canadians like you to ensure we are not misused or deployed on missions that do not fit Canadian moral values....Thanks for waking the F***K up....maybe we should spark up another bowl of that stuff you've been on.... because it's been a long trip and maybe it's time for you to take another ....atleast until you grow up just alittle , aleast to come to the conclusion that your uncle has sacrificed alot for his country, something i'm sure you know nothing about....it is the men and women like him that built this nation , the same one we have today, and the same one that allows you to burn the flag or disrespect it's soldiers....and although these are rights that they have faught and died for i don't have to like it when when you abuse them... Tell me Army Guy, should we spend some money and exercise some sovereignty to protect the North? Quote
Army Guy Posted July 22, 2009 Report Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) I think so, We've been adding to already existing northern bases such as yellowknife etc etc already, basiscally making them fighter friendly, such as hanger space, Ammo bunkers , but i don't think there is any plans to post any more troops on a permanent bases....I know the cons had big plans for a all year round naval port but i have not heard anything except a small article in the Maple leaf awhile back ...DND news mag.. it reported some construction has already began.... The problem with the north is the weather, and it can restrict military operations or make them imposable to carry out...Remember the media a few years back about the Airforce guy getting lost only 500 meters from the airhead in severe fog.... we just don't have the right equipment and what we do have is either old or not enough of it....things such as BV206 (light tracked over snow vehs), or helos that can fly in white out conditions....or have the range to get there.... Years back we had the Airbourne Regt, they where tasked with any nothern operations....with CSOR being expanded maybe they will handle this task...remember just how big our north is having one Bn size unit defend it all ....does not give me a warm and fuzzy....sure most combat units are trained to fight and operate in the winter conditions, but very few know how to survive or operate in the north....we could do it but for a very short period of time.... And if the north becomes as open like they say , i'd say without a presence up there or a force able to atleast contest ownership we might as well give it away....so yes i think we should invest something into our north....as one day it might be the new Alberta, rich in oil, gas and minerals....i think everyone else is preparing, and putting in thier claims now, we should act before we get caught with our pants down... Russia Edited July 22, 2009 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Jerry J. Fortin Posted July 22, 2009 Report Posted July 22, 2009 I think so, We've been adding to already existing northern bases such as yellowknife etc etc already, basiscally making them fighter friendly, such as hanger space, Ammo bunkers , but i don't think there is any plans to post any more troops on a permanent bases....I know the cons had big plans for a all year round naval port but i have not heard anything except a small article in the Maple leaf awhile back ...DND news mag.. it reported some construction has already began....The problem with the north is the weather, and it can restrict military operations or make them imposable to carry out...Remember the media a few years back about the Airforce guy getting lost only 500 meters from the airhead in severe fog.... we just don't have the right equipment and what we do have is either old or not enough of it....things such as BV206 (light tracked over snow vehs), or helos that can fly in white out conditions....or have the range to get there.... Years back we had the Airbourne Regt, they where tasked with any nothern operations....with CSOR being expanded maybe they will handle this task...remember just how big our north is having one Bn size unit defend it all ....does not give me a warm and fuzzy....sure most combat units are trained to fight and operate in the winter conditions, but very few know how to survive or operate in the north....we could do it but for a very short period of time.... And if the north becomes as open like they say , i'd say without a presence up there or a force able to atleast contest ownership we might as well give it away....so yes i think we should invest something into our north....as one day it might be the new Alberta, rich in oil, gas and minerals....i think everyone else is preparing, and putting in thier claims now, we should act before we get caught with our pants down... Russia Yeah, I already read similar stories. Most folks on here seem to have issues with defending the north, in my opinion that should be our focus. I see it as an expensive undertaking that is well worth the effort. A military presence can pave the way for scientific efforts and in time economic development. This is an opportunity that many simply do not see. They also do not see the threat. Quote
Army Guy Posted July 22, 2009 Report Posted July 22, 2009 Yeah, I already read similar stories. Most folks on here seem to have issues with defending the north, in my opinion that should be our focus. I see it as an expensive undertaking that is well worth the effort. A military presence can pave the way for scientific efforts and in time economic development. This is an opportunity that many simply do not see. They also do not see the threat. I think we are taking baby steps right now in regards to our north, such as boosting the numbers of the Artic rangers, currently they are our first line of defense and detection, and constant patrol presence. our forward northern bases are being expanded, and troop strenght is being somewhat increased....There is also a large drive to start exercising our combat forces (airforce, naval, and Army) in the area but it is one unforgiving area of operation....Construction has started on the new Artic naval port , but to what level i'm not sure... I think with the current state of our military we are just trying to fill some gapping gaps, with our Artic region recieving a few scraps we need to do more all the way around....All that said it was nice to here about some of the new equipment they are about to purchase, i just hope they buy enough this time... And while i do agree with what you are saying there are many spin offs in regards to building a presence in the north...there is also a concern about militarization of the north or starting a arms race in those areas....there is a couple of articles written by some Russian military and government officals already expressing thier concern of what we have up there already(which is not much).....and thier current efforts to rebuild thier own northern or artic combat forces are or so they say driven by our little force in the artic now....of course thier effort has to dwarf ours... The threat is very real, and many people have already given many examples of those threats....such as Russian Attack and Missle subs operating freely in this zone, Russian and other ex Soviet block countries have already landed military teams that have operated for long periods in Canadas high artic...evidence has been found by our own Artic Rangers of Russian rations, fuel cans, and other equipment....proving they have been there, and can operate in the artic as well or better than we can....besides it is the shortest route into north america....and deserves atleast some military presence be it UAV's, a few F-18's, or more Combat capable troops patroling the waters, or coastline.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Jerry J. Fortin Posted July 22, 2009 Report Posted July 22, 2009 I think we are taking baby steps right now in regards to our north, such as boosting the numbers of the Artic rangers, currently they are our first line of defense and detection, and constant patrol presence. our forward northern bases are being expanded, and troop strenght is being somewhat increased....There is also a large drive to start exercising our combat forces (airforce, naval, and Army) in the area but it is one unforgiving area of operation....Construction has started on the new Artic naval port , but to what level i'm not sure...I think with the current state of our military we are just trying to fill some gapping gaps, with our Artic region recieving a few scraps we need to do more all the way around....All that said it was nice to here about some of the new equipment they are about to purchase, i just hope they buy enough this time... And while i do agree with what you are saying there are many spin offs in regards to building a presence in the north...there is also a concern about militarization of the north or starting a arms race in those areas....there is a couple of articles written by some Russian military and government officals already expressing thier concern of what we have up there already(which is not much).....and thier current efforts to rebuild thier own northern or artic combat forces are or so they say driven by our little force in the artic now....of course thier effort has to dwarf ours... The threat is very real, and many people have already given many examples of those threats....such as Russian Attack and Missle subs operating freely in this zone, Russian and other ex Soviet block countries have already landed military teams that have operated for long periods in Canadas high artic...evidence has been found by our own Artic Rangers of Russian rations, fuel cans, and other equipment....proving they have been there, and can operate in the artic as well or better than we can....besides it is the shortest route into north america....and deserves atleast some military presence be it UAV's, a few F-18's, or more Combat capable troops patroling the waters, or coastline.... I must agree. I would prefer to see a far more muscled attempt made though. F18's simply won't due, we don't have enough of them anyway. Besides we need a presence on the ground all year round. We also need naval assets as well as air assets to do the job properly. Army Guy, am I out to lunch suggesting carrier battle groups? We need coastal protection too and with a few more land bases in the Arctic we could provide year round coverage. I know this isn't going to be cheap, but I see real value in the effort. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 23, 2009 Report Posted July 23, 2009 (edited) Thanks for those posts ArmyGuy. Jerry...while we joke around that Canada should have aircraft carriers, we'd really be better off with a system that does the same thing (air power over the north) at a fraction of the cost. As BC-2004 mentioned earlier...not only do you have the ship, but you'll need everything else that goes along with it (facilities...other ships to protect it...ships to protect those) including more hookers @ the docks. Canada needs something like the Bear (Tu-95: very long range) that can not only be our eyes in the area but could deal with a wide range of threats (subs, ships, other aircraft, etc). While we have the Aurora...lol...it really lacks any form of fear factor except to a really old Russian sub. Then we could use some sort of aircraft/helicopter that could drop troops off at whatever point we need them. But then, BC-2004, wise fellow that he is, noted there really isn't an aircraft/helicopter Canada can buy off the shelf that'll do either of these jobs. We might need to build them ourselves, regardless of what way the politics drift. I believe a big-azz nuclear icebreaker was also mentioned for two reasons. 1. The obvious...breaking ice up north. 2. Giving us experience operating nuclear reactors at sea (for if we ever DO need to get into the nuclear powered sub/aircraft carrier biz.) Edited July 23, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest TrueMetis Posted July 23, 2009 Report Posted July 23, 2009 Canada makes a wicked nuclear reactor we should have no problem makeing Nuclear subs or Ice breakers. Then we need new Planes and helicopters. All of these we should make from scratch in Canada to much of are military equipment is foreign made and pretty much none of it would hold up in the cold weather up north. Aircraft carriers used to be the best now they're just becomeing a liability Canada should avoid aircraft carriers. Quote
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