The Vietnam War

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

You're free to rewrite history to suit. I'll stick with the agreed upon starting points and causes for both Viet-Nam & WW2. 

You're free to misinterpret history as you see fit. I'll stick to what actually happened.

Britain declared war on Germany, Germany did not declare war on Britain, and it was Churchill's fault both times. Le Duan was actually running things when the US entered the war, not Ho Chi Minh.

That's what happened.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

You're free to misinterpret history as you see fit. I'll stick to what actually happened.

Britain declared war on Germany, Germany did not declare war on Britain. Le Duan was actually running things when the US entered the war, not Ho Chi Minh.

That's what happened.

 

Moving the goal posts. The war started before the US and SEATO entered the conflict.

[Yzermandius19]

13 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Moving the goal posts. The war started before the US and SEATO entered the conflict.

Already said Ho Chi Minh was in charge during the rebellion against the French, no goalposts have been moved, your reading comprehension just isn't very good.

That said, Vo Nguyen Giap deserves the lionshare of the credit for defeating the French, Indochinese Bonaparte right thur, Dien Bien Phu FTW.

Churchill is the main villain of both world wars, and Le Duan is the main villain who fought America in Vietnam. Credit where credit is due, not credit to the scapegoats of mythical narratives that have no basis in fact.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[DogOnPorch]

Not referring to the war with the French.

The first NVA units invaded Laos, Cambodia and South Viet-Nam starting in 1959. 

NLF (Viet Cong) activities began the same year.

It was Ho...not Le Duan that declared The People's War to "liberate" all of Viet-Nam...with Moscow's approval.

[Yzermandius19]

12 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Not referring to the war with the French.

The first NVA units invaded Laos, Cambodia and South Viet-Nam starting in 1959. 

NLF (Viet Cong) activities began the same year.

It was Ho...not Le Duan that declared The People's War to "liberate" all of Viet-Nam...with Moscow's approval.

Ho being a figurehead making a speech, does not mean he was running things. Like I said, he wanted peaceful co-existence, as did Moscow, it was China pushing for the far more aggressive approach and their boy, Le Duan. In 1959, Le Duan is running the show, just because it takes another year for him to get a flashier title doesn't mean Ho was still large and in charge.

You're problem here is you are confusing de jure, with de facto. Le Duan was de facto running the show, don't let Ho Chi Minh being the de jure leader confuse you.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[August1991]

On 4/8/2019 at 9:03 AM, DogOnPorch said:

 

Nobody won in Viet-Nam.

South Viet-Nam is gone. As corrupt as it was, a damn sight better than the Communist regime in Hanoi. 

North Viet-Nam lost every battle except the last offensive...losing countless numbers of soldiers. Not to mention the country itself getting bombed to dust.

Strongly disagree.

Corrupt? You have no idea of corruption....

======

You Americans fought in Vietnam, for the good of us all.

Heck, visited recently, Saigon is still far better than Hanoi.

===

You Americans won the Cold War. Why? Because some of you fought/died in Viet-Nam.

Thanks.

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

You Americans fought in Vietnam, for the good of us all.

Heck, visited recently, Saigon is still far better than Hanoi.

 

But it wasn't just Americans...it was also:

South Korea

Australia

New Zealand

Laos

Cambodia

Thailand

The Philippines

....and thousands of Canadians !

[August1991]

On 5/4/2019 at 10:18 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

But it wasn't just Americans...it was also:

South Korea

Australia

New Zealand

Laos

Cambodia

Thailand

The Philippines

....and thousands of Canadians !

b_c, I understand your point.

But make no mistake, without Americans in Vietnam - there would have been no "Vietnam War". And without a "Vietnam War", there would have been no 1989, fall of Berlin Wall, defeat of the Soviets in 1991.

IMHO, Vietnam was not a "war" - it was a major battle in a larger war. That America won.

=====

As to your point, list, Australia surprised me.

Then I learned that Japan attacked Australia and Americans helped Australians.

Edited May 9, 2019 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

23 minutes ago, August1991 said:

b_c, I understand your point.

But make no mistake, without Americans in Vietnam - there would have been no "Vietnam War". And without a "Vietnam War", there would have been no 1989, fall of Berlin Wall, defeat of the Soviets in 1991.

IMHO, Vietnam was not a "war" - it was a major battle in a larger war. That America won.

 

...and I understand your point.

But there was an Indochina (Vietnam) War long before American involvement.  

The French Empire could not keep up appearances any more.

[Dougie93]

On 4/8/2019 at 10:04 AM, Yzermandius19 said:

Ho being a figurehead making a speech, does not mean he was running things. Like I said, he wanted peaceful co-existence, as did Moscow, it was China pushing for the far more aggressive approach and their boy, Le Duan. In 1959, Le Duan is running the show, just because it takes another year for him to get a flashier title doesn't mean Ho was still large and in charge.
 

Essentially correct, though I wouldn't characterize the Soviet/Ho Chi Minh camp's position as "peaceful coexistence"

The nuance of it was that the Soviets wanted a deescalation which eventually became 'Detente', in order to slow the pace of the arms race, so that they could close the gap.

Ho Chi Minh was unwavering in his commitment to National Reunification, he simply feared the devastating effects of a direct confrontation with the Americans.

The Soviets and Ho Chi Minh were still in favor of supporting the NLF insurgency against the Puppets in Saigon, they simply opposed sending conventional troops.

The Giap doctrine was to fight an insurgency until such time as the enemy was vulnerable to a Dien Bien Phu.

Ho and Giap said that it was too early to fight the Americans head to head, to try for a decisive victory at that time would have resulted in defeat after defeat.

The Chinese and Le Duan were gung-ho to try and force the issue rather than waiting years for the insurgency to wear the Americans down.

The Chinese and Le Duan plan was to send the NVA south to fight with the NLF, building up to major offensives every four years.

1960, 1964, 1968, 1972,  and then they went early in 1975 when congress cut the support for the ARVN.

For the final offensive in 1975, they actually brought Giap back from "retirement" to lead it.

But that was only against the ARVN, so he never did  lead a  fight against the Americans.

Ho Chi Minh opposed all this because he said it would simply give the Americans the excuse they were looking for to bomb the North into rubble.

Not only was the Chinese plan not going to work,  it would backfire massively upon the people in the North. Ho and Giap could see it coming.

Ho Chi Minh favored a more patient approach,  which was rebuilding the North while waiting the Americans out, letting the NLF drive them out eventually.

The difference was that Le Duan was from the South, so he had an ax to grind with the South Vietnamese, whereas Ho Chi Minh was more focused on life in the North.

The epilogue was a Sino-Soviet split,  wherein the Soviet backed Vietnamese Communists went to war with the Chinese backed Khmer Rouge Communists.

This then incited the Chinese invasion of Vietnam in 1979.  This was to be "punishment" for siding with the Soviets against China in Cambodia.

The irony of the Cambodian war being that the Khmer Rouge used all the Viet Cong tactics against the Vietnamese conventional invasion.

So the Vietnamese got a taste of everything they had dished out to the Americans and lost about the same number of troops; 50,000+

Rather than toppling Dominoes, the Communists instead went to war with each other, thus disproving Eisenhower's Domino Theory.

Which none the less rose like a phoenix from the ashes in the Middle East, after being rebranded as the 'Carter Doctrine', still in progress.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Dougie93

[eyeball]

15 hours ago, August1991 said:

IMHO, Vietnam was not a "war" - it was a major battle in a larger war. That America won.

=====

So those were actually Soviet helicopters being chased off US embassies by freedom fighters. Wow, who knew? 

Well, this is probably the clearest evidence I've ever seen that the moon landings were also faked.

Edited May 9, 2019 by eyeball

[Dougie93]

By the time the helicopters were flying  off the embassy in 1975, the Americans had long since withdrawn.

The last major US engagement of the war was at An Loc in 1972.

Le Duan's fourth major offensive, and for the fourth straight time it was a devastating defeat.

The B-52's kept coming for 24 hours straight, one strike every fifteen minutes, and the NVA was obliterated, again.

In 1975, they were only fighting the ARVN, Nixon had promised to keep sending the B-52's, but Watergate prevented that promise from being kept.

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

In 1975, they were only fighting the ARVN, Nixon had promised to keep sending the B-52's, but Watergate prevented that promise from being kept.

Awwww, it's just not fair.

[Dougie93]

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Awwww, it's just not fair.

Well this is what Ho Chi Minh was afraid of.    He burned with desire for National Reunification, but he didn't want millions to die for it.

3 million dead is a Pyrrhic victory for Ho Chi Minh,  but Le Duan was a Stalinist, so he was resolved to put an unlimited number of children in the fire

[Dougie93]

Bear in mind how young the NVA were, bear in mind how naive they were, bear in mind that they were the poor kids from the rice farms.

Ho Chi Minh wanted to limit the devastation, yes, you want to win, but it's not worth a holocaust to get it done in ten years.

2 million dead in North Vietnam, the population was 15 million.

That's like 20 million Americans being killed, for Ho Chi Minh, that was too much, and it wasn't necessary to win the long war.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Dougie93

[August1991]

On 5/9/2019 at 4:14 PM, eyeball said:

So those were actually Soviet helicopters being chased off US embassies by freedom fighters. Wow, who knew? 

Well, this is probably the clearest evidence I've ever seen that the moon landings were also faked.

eyeball, there were Nazis (fanatical Germans) chasing those English soldiers at Dunkerque.

And in Vietnam in 1975, make no mistake, there were Soviet-supported "freedom fighters".

Proof of the moon-landing?

I can now buy shoes at my local Walmart with the words: "Made in Vietnam".

=====

I ask you and other leftists/rightists/socialists/monarchists/whatevers to understand me: Co-operation is good. "Coerced co-operation" is an oxymoron. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by August1991

[Dougie93]

The North Vietnamese made no claims of fighting for "freedom".

The mandate was National Reunification in the wake of the 1954 Geneva Accords wherein the US, UK, Soviets and Chinese agreed to divide the country along the 17th parallel.

[August1991]

41 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The North Vietnamese made no claims of fighting for "freedom".

The mandate was National Reunification in the wake of the 1954 Geneva Accords wherein the US, UK, Soviets and Chinese agreed to divide the country along the 17th parallel.

Reunification in which way?

At present, Hanoi is much more like Saigon once was.

=====

Make no mistake: America won the Cold War.

Now, compare whether Europe "won" the Great War (now called World War I).

[Dougie93]

The thing to understand is that North Vietnam was not a monolith.

It was a collection of factions who didn't really get along.

They wouldn't even had agreed to what the definition of "freedom" was, never mind articulated it as a mandate for total war.

They only agreed one thing when it came to total war.

The elimination of the 17th parallel which divided the country, and what they called the Puppet government in Saigon.

In terms of Vietnam now, still not a monolith, the South Vietnamese simply became another faction in the reunified Vietnam.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

The key is to start in 1954.   Don't start the tape at 1964 when the Americans escalate, that's very far along in the story.

In 1954 the Viet Minh nationalists were divided and conquered.   Not by the French.   Not by the Americans.

It was the Soviets and Chinese who sold the Viet Minh down the river.

Reason being, the Viet Minh was a nationalist coalition, most of them were not communists at all.

The Soviets and Chinese did not want a unified Viet Minh led Vietnam, so it was the Communists who broke the Viet Minh, so that their Communist proxies would takeover.

[Dougie93]

This then leads to the great leaders of the Viet Minh, Ho and Giap, being deposed by an internal putsch by the hard line Stalinist faction led by Le Duan.

Le Duan fought the war against the Americans,  it's not the same regime who fought the French, not at all.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, August1991 said:

I can now buy shoes at my local Walmart with the words: "Made in Vietnam".

 

Co-operation is good. "Coerced co-operation" is an oxymoron. 

So...to be clear, you're saying Vietnam is willingly co-operating, with capitalism or western values or some such thing as evidenced by your shoes, because the US coerced them militarily...

I'm sorry but, wtf was that about an oxymoron again?  Good grief.

I'm not surprised bush_cheney2004 reacted to this with a   No doubt DOP will be along with one soon too. This sort of historical illogic is right up his alley.

 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'm not surprised bush_cheney2004 reacted to this with a   No doubt DOP will be along with one soon too. This sort of historical illogic is right up his alley.

 

 

More importantly, you always hear our footsteps...nowhere to run...nowhere to hide.

[eyeball]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

More importantly, you always hear our footsteps...nowhere to run...nowhere to hide.

Nothing to run or hide from.

[Dougie93]

The force which America employed to incite Vietnamese Communist capitulation  was embargo.

The Communists had destroyed the Vietnamese economy, to the point of inciting famine, thus they were forced to come to the Americans cap in hand to lift the embargo.

The Americans made demands, the Vietnamese met those demands, then America lifted the embargo.