Internet or electronic voting

[August1991]

We already have electronic voting: As soon as you hand your ballot in, it goes into an electronic scanner, that can be corrupted.

And your ATM entries can be corrupted too. But corruption isn't the issue.

If you vote on the Internet, you can't get a purple finger. I think Canada should institute a policy of a purple finger dye for elections. When Canadians vote, we should dip our index finger in permanent ink to show that we voted.

Why?

Around the world, Canada is known as a civilized democracy and if Canada uses such a symbol for voting, then it will become a clear signal.

If someone in a foreign country holds up a purple finger and a broad smile, it will become an honest symbol of civilization and democracy.

If you don't vote, you won't have a purple finger and your neighbours will know that you didn't vote.

If you have a purple finger, you can't vote twice.

----

Voting is symbolic and it is the public act of voting that makes democracy. Voting on the Internet is a crazy idea. We should vote secretly but in a public way. Democracy is too important. In other countries, people are willing to die to have free elections and the power to change their governments.

Around the world, ordinary people want to hold up their finger and smile to show that they have participated in making their society civilized. We Canadians should make this an institution.

Edited June 28, 2009 by August1991

[Topaz]

I'm surprised we haven't had voting through the mail. You get a ballot with carbon copy, you vote who you want, send the top sheet back in the envelope, within a week before election date.

[August1991]

I'm surprised we haven't had voting through the mail. You get a ballot with carbon copy, you vote who you want, send the top sheet back in the envelope, within a week before election date.

Voting by mail? Are you insane?

Casting a vote is not like paying a bill. People wear wedding rings their whole lives. A democracy is an important institution. IMV, for several reasons, we should show others that we voted in an election.

We wear poppies on November 11. We should have purple thumbs for a day or so after an election.

Link

----

Only government bureaucrats could devise such a stupid scheme as Internet voting. Trust bureaucrats to destroy democracy.

[madmax]

Some people would probably like it if it was run like American Idol.

Have all the Leaders perform on stage, then let the critics at them.... I can see it now...

SIMON: Prime Minister Harper.... that was a great delivery, you really got the base motivated, but really, people don't like you, I don't like you either, and do something about your hair. I enjoyed your snidely whiplash persona, but it seemed a little to much like a cartoon. Kinda like those flyers you send to the homes of Canadians. While I wouldn't normally send you into the next round....its only because the other candidates suck that I consider, and you will not be left alone to govern a majority .. ever.... you scarey man.

SIMON: Mr Ignatieff. Whats with the EYES BLINKING.... BLINKING BLINKING BLINKING .... are you sending a coded message to space aliens, or are you actually suffering from torture and sending a message like John McCain. Is there an electrical device attached to your genitals? Why are you so shifty? Do you know the difference from YES and NO, because you certainly have me confused, you spent most of your performance saying one thing, and then right at the end said exactly the opposite. This is a wonderful gift you have, to be able to speak out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. You make a great politician, your not believeable, you have no conviction, and you are twisted like a pretzel when it comes to policy. Mr. Ignatieff, few people come on our show, with absolutely nothing to talk about, and manage to cover up their performance with immeasureable bafflegab. You are the measure of Bullshit baffles Brains and you certainly have me confused. But... the choice lies with out voters.... $1 per electronic vote....

SIMON: Your Mustache... now go away.

SIMON: Who is this irratating women, and why is she on our show?

Remember.... $1 per electronic vote, vote as many times as you like.

[bush_cheney2004]

Some people would probably like it if it was run like American Idol.

Yes...at least they would have better proportional representation than they do now.

[eyeball]

The government should be falling all over itself to allow the public a chance to utilize something so vaunted as democracy and as often as we can. I see no reason for not voting on a range of issues at least 4 or more times a year.

I suppose now we'll be informed that something so precious should also be just as rare.

[August1991]

Some people would probably like it if it was run like American Idol.

Have all the Leaders perform on stage, then let the critics at them.... I can see it now...

Madmax, you apparently have never lived in an authoritarian society. Laugh at your joke but IMV, you don't truly appreciate a free society.

The government should be falling all over itself to allow the public a chance to utilize something so vaunted as democracy...

Indeed. Edited June 28, 2009 by August1991

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Some people would probably like it if it was run like American Idol.

Have all the Leaders perform on stage, then let the critics at them.... I can see it now...

SIMON: Prime Minister Harper.... that was a great delivery, you really got the base motivated, but really, people don't like you, I don't like you either, and do something about your hair. I enjoyed your snidely whiplash persona, but it seemed a little to much like a cartoon. Kinda like those flyers you send to the homes of Canadians. While I wouldn't normally send you into the next round....its only because the other candidates suck that I consider, and you will not be left alone to govern a majority .. ever.... you scarey man.

SIMON: Mr Ignatieff. Whats with the EYES BLINKING.... BLINKING BLINKING BLINKING .... are you sending a coded message to space aliens, or are you actually suffering from torture and sending a message like John McCain. Is there an electrical device attached to your genitals? Why are you so shifty? Do you know the difference from YES and NO, because you certainly have me confused, you spent most of your performance saying one thing, and then right at the end said exactly the opposite. This is a wonderful gift you have, to be able to speak out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. You make a great politician, your not believeable, you have no conviction, and you are twisted like a pretzel when it comes to policy. Mr. Ignatieff, few people come on our show, with absolutely nothing to talk about, and manage to cover up their performance with immeasureable bafflegab. You are the measure of Bullshit baffles Brains and you certainly have me confused. But... the choice lies with out voters.... $1 per electronic vote....

SIMON: Your Mustache... now go away.

SIMON: Who is this irratating women, and why is she on our show?

Remember.... $1 per electronic vote, vote as many times as you like.

A dollar a vote is pretty damned cheap. If you want folks to participate in the system why not just legislate them into the damned corner and force them to vote?

[Alta4ever]

Not getting out to vote demonstrates just about anything people wish to see. I know a fellow who refuses to vote who's gone to polling stations to encourage people to join him in protest. You certainly can't lable him as being lazy or unconcerned. The polling booth as we presently know it is too slow, cumbersome and expensive and it can't allow for more than one vote every few years or so at best. It was a great system for the horse and buggy era but in our day and age its pretty much a joke, a waste of time, a fart in a windstorm, a rubber stamp of approval. Like I said its many things to many people.

At least the fellow mentions above will leave his home to protest shows charcter, shows he cares. Those who don't want to leave their homes are just lazy, and don't want to be inconvienced to exercise their rights. With internet voting you have no way to verify the results or the methode, just some techies word on it. No thanks, I would rather drive the ten miles I have to drive to exercise my right. For those who don't think its worth thier time, or feel that they want to be inconvienced by voting then they don't really value thier rights, get what they deserve no voice in the process.

I would commend the fellow you mention above who protests at the polling station, I bet he values his right.

I'd rather spend money on voting more often than on tanks and guns. I think we could help spread democracy further around the world by setting a better example of how to spread it further around right here at home. Perhaps we could become experts in the business and have a new service to export.

I doubt the countries you are talking about really could care less about the how we promote the spread of democracy. In the grand scheme 300 mil per vote is worth every penny, and those you speak of setting a better example for, our tanks and weapons speak more to them then the means by which we vote.

[madmax]

Mmadmax, you apparently have never lived in an authoritarian society. Laugh at your joke but IMV, you don't truly appreciate a free society.

Indeed.

No I haven't lived in an Authoritarian Society. I do see some of those elements trickling into ours, but that is a separate issue.

Of course I appreciate a free society. I have even worn the uniform to back it up. I vote in every election. I look forward to it, ever since I was a teenager and it was one of my rights of passage, and the only one I couldn't cheat on while underage.... The others two things teenagers look forward to legalling doing is Driving, smoking, and Drinking.

Of course, in my era, political theories were taught in class. You got it all from the right and from the left and everything in between and up and down. Today, if kids are taught at all, it is not politics, nor political theories, its simply platforms, which inspires no one. Its like look at 4 menus...

Do you serve chicken... Yes, Yes, Yes, No were veg

Do you serve steak... yes, yes, yes, No were veg

Do you have rice.......yes, yes, yes, yes

Do you have peas..... Yes, yes, yes, yes

Well, look at that, if there was a Vegetarian looking for rice and peas, they can get them anywhere.

And if the Carnivores were in a good mood, the'd eat the flavoured tofu...

I have read the wordings of the platforms of the Conservatives, Liberals, NDP and even the Green Party, and their marketing of the platforms is identical. You'd almost never know there was a difference between any of them. Everything is nuanced, but it is how the parties behave after elected that the public should be watching.

It is the reason they think every politician is a LIAR... and are put off and don't vote. Electronic voting isn't going to change that.

Politics is the means to achieve power and get people to do what you want them to do, not the other way around. And almost half the public isn't playing.

By the time the spin doctors are done disecting and lying, the general public is a confused mess. Perfect, as long as the base comes out because they won't change their vote. These people will come out and vote in each and every election.

There are still the solid voter, who suffers no fools and can navigate through the spin. They will sort it out to their benefit and make and informed choice. They will find a polling booth, because they are good citizens and believe in their free society.

Am I joking above.... yes, and the reason is that computer voting is a joke.

[madmax]

A dollar a vote is pretty damned cheap. If you want folks to participate in the system why not just legislate them into the damned corner and force them to vote?

I have mixed feelings about this. One is that Authoritarian, totalitarian fear of being force by government to do something. However, Austrialia isn't all that fearful a country and they do it. The people have accepted it, and they start taking an interest.

Heck if I was forced to drive somewhere to exercise my right, I may as well figure out who is running and what they are about. Then if they don't follow through, change votes next time around and its like losing 2 votes.

I'd hate to see forced voting and people able to make a key click and get it done. Like anyone would give a care about who they clicked on. Just get it overwith and back to Facebook and My SPace.

However, as Political Parties receive funding for votes, I could see them wanting to have computer voting just in hopes of those random votes =$1.95

I have to agree with you Jerry, $1 is pretty damn cheap price to pay to vote... but the political parties are getting more then that now ... LOL

[ReeferMadness]

I'm not against internet voting in concept but the devil's in the details. A voting system has to be secure, anonymous and auditable. It's different from online banking in that it is more difficult to make it auditable. If I think my bank is cheating me, I can look at the records and compare them to my own records.

There seem to be two threads open on this topic and between them, I've seen some valid concerns raised about electronic voting. I think that a system could be made to be secure and auditable but I'm not sure how you'd deal with some of the other concerns. Things like ensuring that voters weren't coerced or bribed to vote a certain way and verifying identity.

Public confidence is critical to democratic legitimacy. The counting needs to be done fairly, it needs to be done in a way that is verifiable and it needs to be seen[/] by the public to be fair.

[Remiel]

Only government bureaucrats could devise such a stupid scheme as Internet voting. Trust bureaucrats to destroy democracy.

Yeah, sure, whatever, August. Government bureaucrats have a monopoloy on stupid. Not.

[capricorn]

I can just see it now.

On election day, turn on home computer (if you have one).

Message appears on screen:

Today is election day.

Click here to vote now. "Ooooohhhh, I'm undecided...."

Remind me later. "Good. I'll research and get to it later..." click

Next day, turn on home computer (if you have one)

Message appears on screen:

Election results blah blah blah....

"Oops, too late....oh well...next time."

"And in other news, 30,000 Hydro One customers were without electricity for ten hours yesterday when a transformer in the city's south end caught fire."

[CAMP]

Electronic voting would improve our Democracy simply because it increases voter turnout. Proven no arguement there, it's fact now.

The security of the system would be just as secure as the walk in methods, and I believe would actually improve the security to an even higher level.

You can rest assure that the Conservatives or Liberals would never allow electronic voting as this would further erode their hold on power to control Canadians.

Electronic voting would also allow for Canadians to have a say through out the mandate via referendums or polls if the government actually wanted to know how we feel. (Which they usually don't)

In short Electronic voting would put more power in the hands of the people.

Don't you want more power?

[punked]

Electronic voting would improve our Democracy simply because it increases voter turnout. Proven no arguement there, it's fact now.

The security of the system would be just as secure as the walk in methods, and I believe would actually improve the security to an even higher level.

You can rest assure that the Conservatives or Liberals would never allow electronic voting as this would further erode their hold on power to control Canadians.

Electronic voting would also allow for Canadians to have a say through out the mandate via referendums or polls if the government actually wanted to know how we feel. (Which they usually don't)

In short Electronic voting would put more power in the hands of the people.

Don't you want more power?

Accept it does not. Halifax 2008 first time online voting, voter turn out dropped 10%, or 25% of the population.

http://live.haligonia.ca/halifax-ns/news-h...appointing.html

[Visionseeker]

It seems Election Canada wants to try out voting on the internet because they think they will get more people out to vote. It may or may not, but the reason people aren't voting is they are losing faith in the people who are the leaders of the party or politicans in general. I am strongly against this because of the fraud that can and could occur. The electronic voting is NOT 100% safe as we heard during the Bush era. The hackers can add or take away votes as they see fit. What are we now going to harmonize with the US to make easier down the road to harmonize everything else? THE only way this way of voting could become honest is to have a receipt back from the machine to prove who you have voted for. http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/657595

No.

The problem with voter turnout is not a question of the medium given to the voter to voice their preference. It's a deeper question of disengagement. For some, this disengagement is born from growing frustration with a system that offers them a choice between a few unrepresentative figure heads that will have no power unless they win their riding and the PM brings them into cabinet. For others, it's simply an admission that they know too little about the issues and/or candidates to make an informed choice come election time.

Making voting "easier" solves neither of these problems.

[CAMP]

No.

The problem with voter turnout is not a question of the medium given to the voter to voice their preference. It's a deeper question of disengagement. For some, this disengagement is born from growing frustration with a system that offers them a choice between a few unrepresentative figure heads that will have no power unless they win their riding and the PM brings them into cabinet. For others, it's simply an admission that they know too little about the issues and/or candidates to make an informed choice come election time.

Making voting "easier" solves neither of these problems.

You are correct in some of your analysis of our disengagement of voters. However disengagement has happened over a long time span of corrupt governments. The only way to get back the voter turn out is to get people interested in their government operations again. There are many ways that help to do this, but one method will not do it on its own. Education of up and coming new voters is one way (I think this should be mandatory in high school) as well as new immigrants. This along with providing a method for people to actually have input in how their government is being ran through out a mandate would spark more interest in the general public. A point in case: I am sure most of the people on this forum who post and read would love to have the ability to persuade their government in between elections as well as during elections on the various issues.

Electronic voting is a tool if applied properly would open up many doors of this nature.

The Central Party of Canada is the only party adopting this method of voting because we are a true people's party who wants to improve our democracy.

[Molly]

Disengagement is a direct result of governments saying one thing, and doing another. Fiscal conservatives, for instance, must feel that their vote has been betrayed.

And that is a direct result of the all-powerful political machines-- leadership cults over seeking true constituency representation, party affiliation being more important than even honesty or competence, much less personal opinion. Parties, and representatives, are more rewarded for being mendacious chameleons, rather than for having principles or even wits. When intentions are unknown, it becomes an exercize in tic-tac-toe.

[CAMP]

You are right on the money Molly,

Canadians are fed up with the decade after decade mismanagement and out right abuse of our political system with scandals and money siphoning etc.

Electronic voting is one tool (a very powerful tool) to allow everyday Canadians to take back what is rightfully theirs.

[madmax]

You are right on the money Molly,

Canadians are fed up with the decade after decade mismanagement and out right abuse of our political system with scandals and money siphoning etc.

Electronic voting is one tool (a very powerful tool) to allow everyday Canadians to take back what is rightfully theirs.

You showed up to promote Electronic voting, and I see you are back again....

[CAMP]

You showed up to promote Electronic voting, and I see you are back again....

Yes I am back, and yes I am an advocate of electronic voting, because it will also allow regular Canadians to take control of their political system not only at election time but also during a mandate. It will also allow the possibility of creating MP accountability and bring on transparency in our Government.

I can't wait for the day it arrives. The sooner the better.

[August1991]

I'm not against internet voting in concept but the devil's in the details. A voting system has to be secure, anonymous and auditable. It's different from online banking in that it is more difficult to make it auditable. If I think my bank is cheating me, I can look at the records and compare them to my own records.

Irrelevant.

Well, look at that, if there was a Vegetarian looking for rice and peas, they can get them anywhere.

And if the Carnivores were in a good mood, the'd eat the flavoured tofu...

I have read the wordings of the platforms of the Conservatives, Liberals, NDP and even the Green Party, and their marketing of the platforms is identical. You'd almost never know there was a difference between any of them. Everything is nuanced, but it is how the parties behave after elected that the public should be watching.

It is the reason they think every politician is a LIAR... and are put off and don't vote. Electronic voting isn't going to change that.

Madmax, you are right about much. When we choose a government, it is a collective choice. It is as if we are choosing the same pizza for all of us. Different people like different pizzas and until we can invent a new form of State, we have the government we have.

And so for the moment, I prefer to choose a random government by democratic process. IME, all the other schemes are worse.

Yeah, sure, whatever, August. Government bureaucrats have a monopoloy on stupid. Not.

Bureaucrats miss the essence, or they want to planify. Bureaucrats are neither poets nor marketing people. They're not entrepreneurs.

Remiel, did you see those youtube videos in Iran? Have you heard of the Berlin Wall? The essence of voting (like marriage) is that an individual in public does something. You can get married in city hall alone in front of a bureaucrat, and you can vote secretly, securely on the Internet too. But that's not public.

I think people should at least stand up for Democracy in public, and I think they should have a purple finger for a day or two afterwards too.

Edited June 30, 2009 by August1991

[CAMP]

Accept it does not. Halifax 2008 first time online voting, voter turn out dropped 10%, or 25% of the population.

http://live.haligonia.ca/halifax-ns/news-h...appointing.html

Ok Punked, I now have a response from the Intellivote DEAN SMITH I will paste it here.

Hi Tom;

Several things about the 2008 HRM election are worthy of note.

1. The 2008 participation was down to 36% about the same turnout as the 2000 election.

2. The 2004 election turnout was 48% because the very contentious “Sunday Shopping Plebiscite Question” was on the ballot. A very hot topic that had people going to the polls and only voting on that question; some not even bothering to vote for the mayor or councillor races.

3. In the 2008 election, you could only vote electronically in the advance polls in HRM. Twelve days (12) before the election dates, you could vote over 3 days (Sat-Mon) electronically. Turnout for this electronic advanced poll was almost double the 2004 advanced poll turnout, (28,709 vs 15,386). This demonstrated a desire for voters to use the convenience of the evoting solution as the dates to vote were many days before the election took place and even before a much publicized televised Mayoralty Debate was to take place.

4. There were 101,080 voters participating in the 2008 election and of these 28,709 voted electronically - 12 days before the main Election Date. (That maybe where you are getting the approximate 30% number participation that you have quoted).

5. It is important to note that in the other municipalities we conducted 2008 municipal elections in Windsor, Berwick, and Stewiacke, they allowed their voters to cast electronic ballots up to, and including, election day. In Stewiacke they doubled their voter participation to an all-time high of 71%. Berwick had a more modest increase, and Windsor has a small one even though their major race, that for mayor, was acclaimed.

In short electronic voting can and has increased voter turnout. When implemented with many of the recommendations Intelivote councils our clients on the choices available to voters increases and the turnout does as well. HRM will be holding a by-election in September to replace a councillor who won a seat in the provincial election recently. In that by-election they have decided to let the voters cast their ballots electronically in advance of the election day and on election day as well. By-elections have notoriously poor turnout, (last one here in HRM had 12% turnout), so it will be interesting to see if turnout is better with electronic voting added.

I have attached a recent document created by a US based Professor, William J. Kelleher, that is an interesting read about the issues of internet voting.

The most significant issue of late is the statement in a recent press release that Elections Canada will be looking to use online voting in Federal Elections in about 4 years (next election?) 2013 by-elections as a trial. http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianp...R-smf65C4Oo5Wzw

Cheers

Dean

Dean Smith

President and Founder

Intelivote Systems Inc.

201 Brownlow Avenue, Suite 25

Dartmouth, NS, B3B 1W2

Office (902) 481-1156

Mobile (902) 471-1582

[email protected]

[GostHacked]

Electronic voting and internet voting can make hijacking an election much easier.

I love technology, but the way those electronic voting machines can easily be tampered with, I guess anything can be tampered with, but you gotta draw a line at how easily it can be tampered with.