When domestic terrorism succeeds!

[GostHacked]

Speak for yourself on that one.

I speak for many Canadian's on this one. But that is also another topic.

[Smallc]

I speak for many Canadian's on this one. But that is also another topic.

I'm sure you do...but there are many others that you don't speak for.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, sure I can let Canada take the blame for Quebec's strict abortion laws in respect to 3rd trimester abortions. Forcing these people to go to the US. Not to mention equating a province that wants to separate from the rest of Canada AS Canada is quite hilarious.

Ah...one dometic neurosis layered atop another. You have missed the larger point that Quebec patients can find "services" in the USA more readily than in the rest of Canada, even as some dolts claim it was only available in Kansas.

If you want Quebec, you can have them. Canada won't be sad to see it go.

Different topic for a different day....Montreal wasn't told to "f_k off".

Hey, you are the one always starting the blame game. not my problem you have a problem with Canada.

I don't have a problem with Canada....I have a problem with Canadians who are sanctimonious putzes when it comes to issues like this one.

[GostHacked]

Actually, the USA learned from Quebec, Canada. Seems they refused to do these third tri abortions and send moms to be to America!

Ah...one dometic neurosis layered atop another. You have missed the larger point that Quebec patients can find "services" in the USA more readily than in the rest of Canada, even as some dolts claim it was only available in Kansas.

Did the O.P. say anything about women from Quebec going to Kansas for 3rd trimester abortions? But you could not resist a stab at Canada. What about my neurosis again?

It's like me comparing the FLQ to Weather Undergound. You can do better Blame_Canada.

[sharkman]

Dr. McHugh was allowed to examine Dr. Tiller's records by the Kansas Attorney General.

PAUL MCHUGH, M.D., PSYCHIATRIST (The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine): I didn't think that those records supported the idea that these women were likely to suffer a substantial and irreversible impairment, which was required by law here in Kansas for their abortion since they were late-term abortions.

They highlighted certain kinds of things, which out of context were hard, of course, to appreciate, but were sometimes of a most trivial sort from saying that, “I won't be able to go to concerts,” or “I won't be able to take part in sports,” to more serious ones such as, “I don't want to give my child up for adoption.”

This is damning evidence indeed, so what does WIP do? Character assassination! There may have been a few necessary cases, but women regretting not being able to go to concerts or partake in sports is not a reason to have an abortion, let alone a later trimester one.

But Dr. Tiller thought it was fine, will you be paying by cash or charge?

Don't get me wrong, murdering the guy was wrong, but calling it domestic terrorism is laughable. Further, the reason the abortion clinic is closing probably has more to do with the fact that so few doctors want to get into abortion work. So what, there's a nursing shortage too.

[bush_cheney2004]

Did the O.P. say anything about women from Quebec going to Kansas for 3rd trimester abortions? But you could not resist a stab at Canada. What about my neurosis again?

Do you think you can hide behind the title of a thread? Is this your little safe zone, free from assault by the wretched American who would point out the way to your own curious circumstances?

It's like me comparing the FLQ to Weather Undergound. You can do better Blame_Canada.

Of course I can do better, but that's a good start for you.

[Oleg Bach]

Do you think you can hide behind the title of a thread? Is this your little safe zone, free from assault by the wretched American who would point out the way to your own curious circumstances?

Of course I can do better, but that's a good start for you.

Don't do too well - Canadians do not handle dust very good especially if it is flurried up in the wake of a fast Yank.

[bush_cheney2004]

Don't do too well - Canadians do not handle dust very good especially if it is flurried up in the wake of a fast Yank.

You have schooled me well on this oh wise one.....I guess some are very thin skinned indeed.

[GostHacked]

Do you think you can hide behind the title of a thread? Is this your little safe zone, free from assault by the wretched American who would point out the way to your own curious circumstances?

There are no safe zones. Not when you are around anyways. Besides, you have the reputation of always throwing up the Blame_Canada routine, but yet never really say why the US is better. I've seen you do it in threads that really have nothing to do with the US or Canada, but yet, zing, there it goes. You seem to know a lot about Canada. Do you spend more time studying Canada than your own US? Oh wait, I get it now. It is because it is a Canadian based forums. Ahh ok carry on then.

Of course I can do better, but that's a good start for you.

Trying is for losers.

[Oleg Bach]

You have schooled me well on this oh wise one.....I guess some are very thin skinned indeed.

What I do notice my dear friend is that - Canada is so institutionalized in Yank hate that they have forgotten that you are people - IF they would get out of that time warp and stero-typical thinking - relations between the two national families would be wonderful - not to pander or stroke - by you are probably typical of most - It is always a pleasure to speak to you - what I find is - I treat you as a human being and not some massive corporate national entity to be hated - there is no such thing as the ugly American - only the beautiful one - you get what you put out - so far I get good and fair response from you...time for Canada to stop behabing like indoctrinated Amerian hating robots..time to be humane with our big brother and the favour will surely be returned...time to be men!

[WIP]

This is damning evidence indeed,

You wouldn't know evidence if it fell on your face! What evidence? This McHugh only offered an opinion -- presumably a biased opinion, since he has served as a Vatican consultant.

so what does WIP do? Character assassination!

So, revealing a few more details about his background to show that he is not an unbiased observer, somehow constitutes "character assassination."

There may have been a few necessary cases,

And now that his family is permanently closing the clinic, there may be only two remaining facilities left in the United States performing third trimester abortions; so the odds are greater than ever that some of those necessary cases will not be to travel to an out-of-state clinic, endangering the lives of women who develop complications late in pregnancy.....so much for pro life!

but women regretting not being able to go to concerts or partake in sports is not a reason to have an abortion, let alone a later trimester one.

Can you cite any examples of women having third trimester abortions because they wanted to go to a concert, or play sports?

But Dr. Tiller thought it was fine, will you be paying by cash or charge?

And you're the crybaby whining about character assassination! Leave it to you to imply that a man who refused to give in to the intimidation and harassment of anti-abortion fanatics -- even suffering two gunshot wounds on a previous occasion -- was only in it for the money!

Don't get me wrong, murdering the guy was wrong

Why? Could you expand on that point.

So far, all the right wing anti-abortion nuts, including Operation Rescue and Bill O'Reilley -- who repeated the "Tiller, the baby killer" slogan many times on his show, are all decrying the murder of Dr. Tiller. Well, that's kind of odd, to be showing either real or fake concern over the "murder" of someone who has been labeled a mass-murderer by your movement! Does the far right ever call the execution of criminal "murder." So, is it really about protecting the lives of the unborn, or is it more about controlling women's sexual behaviour and forcing a dramatic increase in birth rates?

but calling it domestic terrorism is laughable.

Nervous laughter I presume -- coming from the anti-abortion movement who fear having a little light shining on their connections with other rightwing extremist groups.

The respectable front of the anti-abortion movement has provided idealogical justification and in many cases, money and logistical support for the terrorist groups like "Army of God" to do the dirty work that the church front groups don't want to get their hands dirty with!

Further, the reason the abortion clinic is closing probably has more to do with the fact that so few doctors want to get into abortion work. So what, there's a nursing shortage too.

And why would a doctor want to subject him or herself to a constant campaign of harassment, vandalism, threats of violence, death threats, and actual cases of assault and murder?

[sharkman]

Look, WIP, if you want to pretend that PAUL MCHUGH, M.D., PSYCHIATRIST (The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine) is some kind of pro life hack, go ahead, but you are embarrassing yourself. His judgements in these matters has far more weight than yours or mine. If he says in his reading of the records(no doubt doctor patient privacy takes precedent over your demand to see the actual cases) that there were many cases where the reasons given for wanting the late term abortion were trivial and did not meet the legal requirements for having such a procedure, then it is so. Whine all you want, but an MD from the John Hopkins University School of Medicine is not going to lie, let alone about such easily verifiable claims. It's obvious that some young ladies woke up one morning and decided that they didn't want to be a mom, but since it was 7 or 8 months in they had to look up Tiller, who would look the other way when needed.

Your odds beliefs in the bible not valuing unborn life have no place in the facts of the case and the law of the land.

Edited June 11, 2009 by sharkman

[Smallc]

So what about the opiniion of the jury that found him innocent and the other doctors that signed off on the abortions.

[bush_cheney2004]

And now that his family is permanently closing the clinic, there may be only two remaining facilities left in the United States performing third trimester abortions; so the odds are greater than ever that some of those necessary cases will not be to travel to an out-of-state clinic, endangering the lives of women who develop complications late in pregnancy.....so much for pro life!

Gee....can't they go to Canada? Except for Quebec of course, which some of you say is not really Canada.

The paucity of third tri abortion clinics in the USA has much more to do with state laws and physician choices.

Edited June 11, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Shady]

there may be only two remaining facilities left in the United States performing third trimester abortions

Good. Third trimester abortions are an abomination, and should only be preformed in emergency cases, which can be accomplished at pretty much any hospital.

[bush_cheney2004]

Good. Third trimester abortions are an abomination, and should only be preformed in emergency cases, which can be accomplished at pretty much any hospital.

Right.....you make an important medical services distinction. Note how their emphasis is on "third tri abortion clinics", ignoring the obvious lawful access to medical care and pregnancy termination when required.

[sharkman]

So what about the opiniion of the jury that found him innocent and the other doctors that signed off on the abortions.

You make reference to a jury and a case, do you know the facts involved? Here is what I've learned.

Late term abortions are illegal in Kansas except for serious health risks to the mother. Charges of performing late term abortions without such risks were brought against Tiller, and also charges of misdemeanors for violating regulations in the process. But while the wheels of justice slowly turned, in 2006 a new AT was voted in, who, instead of letting justice take its course, dropped the more serious of the charges. So we will never know what a jury thought of those charges, or of what Dr McHugh thought of the reasons given for wanting late term abortions, but only rules for record keeping.

Also, with improved methods and technology, doctors can discover health risks to the mother, and improperly formed fetuses much earlier than previously, so the need for late term abortions is almost removed completely.

[Peter F]

You make reference to a jury and a case, do you know the facts involved? Here is what I've learned.

... in 2006 a new AT was voted in, who, instead of letting justice take its course, dropped the more serious of the charges.

So what was Tiller guilty of again?

[sharkman]

Doing late term abortions for nonsensical reasons and being protected by politicians who he financially supported.

[WIP]

Look, WIP, if you want to pretend that PAUL MCHUGH, M.D., PSYCHIATRIST (The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine) is some kind of pro life hack, go ahead, but you are embarrassing yourself. His judgements in these matters has far more weight than yours or mine.

Don't you ever get tired of being a slave to the opinions of your authority figures? There are lots of psychiatrists with just as impressive credentials as McHugh, with very different opinions.

The reason why the conservative Christian Right goes to him as the oracle of psychiatric wisdom is because he is the shrink who frames his writings and opinions to conform with Catholic dogma. This is no different than supernaturalists quoting neurologist Michael Egnor, because he is one of the few people in that field who adamantly believes in a soul; global warming deniers quoting from the minority of climatologists who see no need to slow down fossil fuel use; believers in cosmological fine tuning quote Frank Tipler; and creationists......well, creationists have the biggest hurdle, since there don't seem to be any creationists in the fields of natural sciences - biology, paleontology, geology.

Anyway, when complex, technical issues become the subject of court cases, the judges and juries generally have to evaluate the arguments of competing groups of experts, despite not having any technical expertise in the subject areas. All they need is critical thinking skills and an ability to make informed, reason-based judgments.....and going full circle, that's why you can't just quote someone with credentials as the final word on the subject!

Now, doing a little searching around, it appears that Dr. McHugh has very little to say about the subject of abortion, but a lot to say about homosexuality and transgender issues, since these subjects are the most prominent....at least on the first two search pages:

He is foremost in the Vatican's PR campaign to reframe the Church's pedophile priest scandal as a gay priest problem:

The Gay PurgeBy scapegoating homosexual priests, the Catholic Church seeks to avoid a tougher look at its secret history of abuse.

Vatican recommends some use of psychological testing in seminaries

How Paul McHugh will save the Catholic Church

Tuesday, February 10, 2009Debunking Dr. Paul McHugh

The short comment here is that in McHugh's view, transsexuals didn't measure up to his idea of beauty. For a supposed professional, working in mental health, McHugh should have long ago discarded such idiotic believes from his practice.

First, they spent an unusual amount of time thinking and talking about sex and their sexual experiences; their sexual hungers and adventures seemed to preoccupy them. Second, discussion of babies or children provoked little interest from them; indeed, they seemed indifferent to children. But third, and most remarkable, many of these men-who-claimed-to-be-women reported that they found women sexually attractive and that they saw themselves as “lesbians.”

Ummm...wow. There's more assumptions in that one paragraph than a pharmacy has pills. Starting off with the idea that transsexuals are sex-obsessed. In reality it doesn't work that way. Transsexuals have varying levels of interest in sex - and it's all over the map. Perhaps McHugh only remembers the conversations about sex because they piqued his curiousity. As for children, not everybody is cut out to be a parent; and some, are so distressed by their situation that the idea of creating the emotional space to care for a child isn't even a point of discussion. (I know several ladies who have no desire whatsoever to raise a family - period) As for his astonishment that someone might transition and identify as a lesbian, it only goes to underscore Dr. McHugh's limited understanding of the diversity of human sexuality.

..............so just having expert credentials should not be a reason for average people not to bother to try to reach informed opinions of their own! Religion and conservative philosophy both lead their adherents to shut off their own reasoning skills and blindly adopt the opinions of trusted authority figures.....and that makes the combination of the two a lethal blend taking us down the road to authoritarianism.

If he says in his reading of the records(no doubt doctor patient privacy takes precedent over your demand to see the actual cases) that there were many cases where the reasons given for wanting the late term abortion were trivial and did not meet the legal requirements for having such a procedure, then it is so.

Great! But shouldn't that be a good reason to examine the opinions of other experts who have read these records? Rather than blindly trusting the pro life expert!

Whine all you want, but an MD from the John Hopkins University School of Medicine is not going to lie, let alone about such easily verifiable claims. It's obvious that some young ladies woke up one morning and decided that they didn't want to be a mom, but since it was 7 or 8 months in they had to look up Tiller, who would look the other way when needed.

No, an MD from Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine would never tell a lie!

What were the ages of those "young ladies" BTW?

And there is evidence that girls coming from conservative Christian backgrounds, which preach abstinence, are more likely to need abortion services than typical teenage girls, and they are more likely to delay seeking help until they are in later stages of pregnancy, and unable to hide the fact:

Religious school grads likelier to have abortions New study examines faith’s role in deciding to terminate a pregnancy

In these cases where you think a young, teenage (or even pre-teen) girl should be forced to have the baby, are factors such as the girl's age or her mindset play any role in the decision? Or should young girls be forced to have babies as punishment for sin?

Your odds beliefs in the bible not valuing unborn life have no place in the facts of the case and the law of the land.

Who's talking about the bible?

[WIP]

Good. Third trimester abortions are an abomination, and should only be preformed in emergency cases, which can be accomplished at pretty much any hospital.

There are no guarantees that "any hospital" is going to have a doctor and staff willing and able to perform third trimester abortions. In New York, Catholic hospitals have even refused to operate on women with ectopic pregnancies, fearing running afoul of Church rules that demand such procedures cannot be performed until they pass the Church's "Rule of Double Effects" ethical mumbo jumbo.

Instead, they have to be rushed off to non-catholic hospitals. Final result is that so-called "pro life" is putting real lives in danger!

[sharkman]

I notice, WIP, that you didn't provide any experts that disagree with Dr McHugh on this case, you only tried to attack his character again. What the heck does views on gays have to do with this case? Why don't we poll the jury and ask them what their gay views are?

The fact that Dr McHugh has little to say on abortions is actually a good thing. He's not some campaigner with a grudge, and if he did have lots to say on the issue you'd be bemoaning that fact. Why don't you next drag up quotes by a pro-lifer on polygamy and this time colour the paragraphs in blue, it'll look just as impressive while having little to do with the issue at hand.

Next I see you bring up some stats on religious school grads. Hmm, nothing on Tiller or his court cases?

[Shady]

There are no guarantees that "any hospital" is going to have a doctor and staff willing and able to perform third trimester abortions.

Wrong. If it's medically necessary to save a woman's life, hospitals are required to do so, or face litigation.

In New York, Catholic hospitals have even refused to operate on women with ectopic pregnancies

Your link from Feministe.us claims that it's a huge problem that Catholic hospitals are refusing to do so. But they don't site even one example. You'd figure if it was a huge problem, finding such examples wouldn't be difficult. In otherwords, pure propaganda.

[WIP]

Wrong. If it's medically necessary to save a woman's life, hospitals are required to do so, or face litigation.

How is a hospital going to be sued for procedures they are not able to perform?

Your link from Feministe.us claims that it's a huge problem that Catholic hospitals are refusing to do so. But they don't site even one example. You'd figure if it was a huge problem, finding such examples wouldn't be difficult. In otherwords, pure propaganda.

Directives from John Cardinal O'Connor don't allow anything considered "a direct abortion" to be performed, and this statement informs us that Catholic rules apply even at hospitals that have been merged with other institutions:

Local bishops have the power to go even further than the Directives require. For example, John Cardinal O'Connor of New York proclaimed in 1995 that even collaboration with non-Catholic institutions would be prohibited unless those non-Catholic institutions "...are committed to comply with Catholic medical, moral and ethical principles." This would prevent collaborative efforts on community health services, health education, and more with any hospital and any institution which does not adhere to Vatican dogma.

Another directive also impacts this abortion question:

#48 In case of extrauterine pregnancy, no intervention is morally licit which constitutes a direct abortion.

An "extrauterine pregnancy" includes ectopic pregnancies, where the fetus has implanted in the fallopian tubes, and pregnancies where the fertilized egg has implanted at the ovary or even outside the reproductive organs and in the abdomen. Extrauterine pregnancies can never proceed to viability.

This condition absolutely does threaten the life of the mother, but Catholic hospitals do not permit abortions which would possibly save her life and, hopefully, allow her to have future pregnancies. The lives of non-Catholic women are thus supposed to be sacrificed on the altar of Catholic doctrines.

The upshot of this is that in small communities where a Catholic hospital has merged with the only other (secular, nonsectarian) hospital, there can exist absolutely no hospital-based family planning services and birth regulation outside of the "rhythm method." And this has been decided for people - Catholics and non-Catholics alike - by the Vatican in Rome.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/chri...ealth_abort.htm

[WIP]

I notice, WIP, that you didn't provide any experts that disagree with Dr McHugh on this case,

Where are the other experts who share McHugh's opinions? Any experts who reviewed the same cases and did not have objections would not have made the news!