GM Bailout

[Moonbox]

Maybe if the unions hadn't turned GM into the largest private purchaser of Viagra in the world, they might still be a viable company.

THAT is funny!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Workers often defend themselves by saying: "we are not only numbers!"

So they are not, yet that is the basis of their association. There is strength in numbers, the power of collective bargaining and the like of such things were once a source of pride and benefit. Such things have become very political and devolved into merely another form of taxation upon citizens.

[jdobbin]

The CPC needs the support of SOMEBODY to act. That support happens to come from the Liberals. As they have veto on everything the CPC does, I'd say they do have a defacto place at the table. Like I said before, I'm not blaming the Liberals over the CPC. I'm saying that it's hypocritical for the Liberals to criticize a deal they voted for rather than try to have it amended.

That is like saying that Harper was responsible for everything the Liberals did such as daycare because he didn't vote them down. Did he have a defacto place at the table? Surely he did since the Liberals needed his support to act.

You think it was hypocritical for the Tories to criticize the daycare plan?

Here's an interesting idea. Remember you going off on Flaherty for criticizing Ontario's capital investment taxes? Well they're STILL one of the highest in the world and these are SPECIFICALLY the taxes that discourage new investment in the economy. Look how things turn around.

My criticism was Flaherty telling investors that Ontario was a bad place to invest in and generally acting like he was campaigning for the premier's job.

I also showed that Ontario's taxes were not all that different from many other industrialized areas. One of Ontario's biggest problems was the issue of the dollar and that big fat responsibility lies squarely with Flaherty and the Bank of Canada.

You don't want to get into a monetary policy debate amidst all of this.

Since it was the fast rise of the dollar under Flaherty's watch that squeezed Ontario very early on in this downturn, I don't know how you can avoid it.

Even now the dollar threatens to send Canada's recovery straight into the toilet. Flaherty and the BoC better have a plan or Harper will taken down with the flush.

He was in charge of the deal. When he made the deal with GM USA when it came to Canada it was a take it or leave it sort of thing. Harper had about as much to do with writing it as Ignatieff did. He's guilty of accepting a crap deal, but he didn't have a lot of choice did he? It's either we blow billions on CAW moochers or we lose 85000 jobs. Hmm...

Ah. The union hatred. Lots more jobs on the line than just those building the cars.

I'll tell you about a better deal in a second. As for what Harper could have done a year ago to save GM, there was nothing. There's nothing a government can do when a company has a 2:1 debt:equity ratio and can't meet its short term requirements.

There was certainly more than the Harper government could have done with the overall manufacturing sector. The industry had been begging Harper to come up with a strategy and that just didn't happen.

What would you say about an investment where the share price would have to go from $1 to $125 to recover the investment. What would you say about an investment where:

What do you think the odds are that we'll be able to sell GM shares after 8 years for $125? That's not an investment. That's a joke.

If the company and other companies associated with it survive, I expect the shares will rise. How much, I don't know. You think the government should have taken a share with no plans to get out?

I also imagine that the taxes paid by the company as it continues should be considered.

Having not seen the full details of the deal, I cannot assess the economics of it. As I said, it isn't the deal I would have negotiated. I wouldn't have set a time limit on the shares since it is impossible to say when would be the ideal time to sell.

It was thinly disguised as that. You could have done that with a fair deal though. North American taxpayers shouldn't have to pay billions to bankrupt pensions that helped force the company into bankruptcy in the first place. That's Obama pandering to the UAW who happens to be pretty much his biggest sponsor. The UAW was probably the biggest reason the company went bankrupt in the first place and there's no reason why taxpayers should subsidize their greed and mindless manual labour.

If it was only about pensions though. It isn't. This is the right wing angle on the subject.

You could also drop the requirement to divest which guarantees we won't get more than a fraction back of what we put in.

Harper seemed to want that in there from what I can tell. I don't know that the Liberals would have done that.

[benny]

There is strength in numbers, the power of collective bargaining and the like of such things were once a source of pride and benefit. Such things have become very political and devolved into merely another form of taxation upon citizens.

Chances are that you owe your very notion of citizenship to workers' unions and there is less need for corporate taxation when these unions can bargain directly for a fair share of corporate earnings.

[fellowtraveller]

Yes I get it, you may be missing the point. We've thrown billions away that we'll never see again regardless. Now we're going to throw billions more away and will get pennies back for the dollar on that money.

Isn't that what the Opposition demanded?

As a financial decsion, it is absolutely ridiculous.

They'd be far better off just giving every GM worker and retiree a couple hundred grand and say 'best of luck, invest well'. And likely cheaper.

But - to the discredit of every single political leader and most of us- we accept this nonsense passively.

[fellowtraveller]

Chances are that you owe your very notion of citizenship to workers' unions and there is less need for corporate taxation when these unions can bargain directly for a fair share of corporate earnings.

The unions do get a portion, a large portion, of any companies earnings. They are called pay cheques.

When the unions risk their own money by buying equity in the company, they have a right to whay any shareholder may gain. Until then, they have earned nothing other than pay and benefits.

I owe nothing to unions regarding citizenship. I negotiate my own terms and condtions of work with businesses, and many items have long been covered by health and saftey regulations. I owe a far, far greater debt of citizenship to veterans and serving members of our armed forces, and to law enforcement people who protect me and our way of life.

[benny]

The unions do get a portion, a large portion, of any companies earnings. They are called pay cheques.

When the unions risk their own money by buying equity in the company, they have a right to whay any shareholder may gain. Until then, they have earned nothing other than pay and benefits.

I owe nothing to unions regarding citizenship. I negotiate my own terms and condtions of work with businesses, and many items have long been covered by health and saftey regulations. I owe a far, far greater debt of citizenship to veterans and serving members of our armed forces, and to law enforcement people who protect me and our way of life.

You would still be a slave without 18th century revolutionaries and 19th century unions' activists who have defeated Kings' armies and insisted for more proper compensation of work efforts relatively to risk-takings.

Edited June 5, 2009 by benny

[fellowtraveller]

You would still be a slave without 18th century revolutionaries and 19th century unions' activists who have defeated Kings' armies and insisted for more proper compensation of work efforts relatively to risk-takings.

Yeah, and I'd be on the dole in Scotland if.........

I acknowledge that unions were once advocates for social change.

Now they are clearly and unequivocally advocates for their members. Period. It serves their purposes to pretend and promote something else, something noble and uplifting, it makes the actual process less venal in their minds. That bit of deception actually dishonours those who did make real sacrifices. Good luck with those daydreams.

[benny]

Yeah, and I'd be on the dole in Scotland if.........

I acknowledge that unions were once advocates for social change.

Now they are clearly and unequivocally advocates for their members. Period. It serves their purposes to pretend and promote something else, something noble and uplifting, it makes the actual process less venal in their minds. That bit of deception actually dishonours those who did make real sacrifices. Good luck with those daydreams.

The truthful nature of sacrifices is revealed only through collective negotiations.

[fellowtraveller]

The truthful nature of sacrifices is revealed only through collective negotiations.

Thank you for your valuable contribution, comrade.

[benny]

Thank you for your valuable contribution, comrade.

You're welcome!

[Oleg Bach]

You're welcome!

How's it shaken benny - waz up? GM bailout - no such thing - it's the taxing of the average person and handing the money over to rich folks who have failed miserably at being rich - so it's desperate maintance of the status quo - that is desperately trying to keep it's social status by stealing from the poor - pitiful!

[benny]

How's it shaken benny - waz up? GM bailout - no such thing - it's the taxing of the average person and handing the money over to rich folks who have failed miserably at being rich - so it's desperate maintance of the status quo - that is desperately trying to keep it's social status by stealing from the poor - pitiful!

GM is the ultimate American icon.

[Oleg Bach]

GM is the ultimate American icon.

Iconoclasts are on the march - icons are being smashed left right and center - the powers that be are destroying what their predesors created...it's the burning of old wood ---- Spoke briefly to an older very experienced and influential investment banker --- this was about six months ago - This is how one of the big dogs decribed todays executives - and he should know ------------------quote "This mess came about because of executives being lazy, greedy and stupid" - that's it benny - the big boss if firing everyone - with a nice going away package of course.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Power is being concentrated in the same place wealth is. Into fewer and fewer hands and those are becoming less accessible all the time.

[benny]

Iconoclasts are on the march - icons are being smashed left right and center - the powers that be are destroying what their predesors created...it's the burning of old wood

Obama and Harper know better: political stability requires that this icon be protected.

[Oleg Bach]

Obama and Harper know better: political stability requires that this icon be protected.

Correct - you do not tear down the temple in three days and replace it with chaos or nothing - repair the temple..You might thing that I am a radical or anarchist...I am not - I do not think it useful to destroy - because it takes so long to build - I belive in repairs - IT can be done.

[benny]

Nobody can know the human cost worldwide of a fatal dent done to America good economic reputation.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nobody can know the human cost worldwide of a fatal dent done to America good economic reputation.

That's what they said in 1929 too.

[Oleg Bach]

That's what they said in 1929 too.

BC - your late - took you a while to travel from 1929 to now --- to bad I am tired - would have been fun....The idea of keeping the faith _ the Icon - the brand GM ---- It was the height of corporate America at one time. Here is what I wonder and give me some names of some humans who caused the crash of GM ----who were the men that arranged for the shipping of autos into America that destroyed the domestic industry? It must have been someone who signed the pact with Japan - who was it ...now that's they guy that we want to string up.

[bush_cheney2004]

BC - your late - took you a while to travel from 1929 to now --- to bad I am tired - would have been fun....The idea of keeping the faith _ the Icon - the brand GM ----

I'm a Blue Oval guy, so GM's troubles are not a personal concern. As for "icons", WalMart and Exxon-Mobil will do nicely. Anybody who lived through the 1970's won't shed much of a tear for General Motors. It was a good run....100 years....Canada got a nice piece of the tail end.

Edited June 6, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[benny]

That's what they said in 1929 too.

And the human cost of Hitler's "stimulus package" is still incommensurable.

[Oleg Bach]

And the human cost of Hitler's "stimulus package" is still incommensurable.

Benny - don't you ever sleep? Remember Hitler was a surrogate much like Bush - much like Obama - I wonder what his handlers were thinking when they generated hate - in order to detract and devert attention from the economic screw ups that the establishment had committed - I guess - they went out and got some Jews to blame - seeing they are so "good with money" - and "shrewd" - meanwhile it was a bunch of high faluting anglos and European elite...along with a few betraying small J jews..who screwed the economy...I wonder if the Muslims will submit to a holocausting because the same jerks screwed up again?

[benny]

Benny - don't you ever sleep? Remember Hitler was a surrogate much like Bush - much like Obama - I wonder what his handlers were thinking when they generated hate - in order to detract and devert attention from the economic screw ups that the establishment had committed - I guess - they went out and got some Jews to blame - seeing they are so "good with money" - and "shrewd" - meanwhile it was a bunch of high faluting anglos and European elite...along with a few betraying small J jews..who screwed the economy...I wonder if the Muslims will submit to a holocausting because the same jerks screwed up again?

You are yourself very good at pinpointing Jews when you want to excuse the rich. Just recall what you wrote about Conrad Black’s Jewish lawyers.

[Oleg Bach]

You are yourself very good at pinpointing Jews when you want to excuse the rich. Just recall what you wrote about Conrad Black’s Jewish lawyers.

It had nothing to do about who is jewish or not - and please stop trying to saddle me with that wet moldy blanket of anti-semitism....While sueing a Jewish institution - I mentioned to a young female Jewish lawyer - bush league ...she was nice - once she figured out we were not crazed supremists or haters - I am not a hater benny - get that straight ----------------any way - we mentioned to this lawyer that there was a Jewish mafia - she said that there was no such thing - EVERY GROUP ON EARTH HAS A MAFIA OF SORTS... All I mentioned was that Greenspan and that group - get along on the surface with the anglo elite - but underneath they are very competative _ The look on Greenspans face was distressed - I instinctively knew he did not do his best work defending Black - and I firmly believe that Eddie knew that also...it was subtle - but to not give it your best is a betrayal. sorry been - that's what my common sense tells me....and stop being a jerk with the jewish thing - It's not going to fly with me or anyone else that can think - including the Jews.