GM Bailout

[geoffrey]

Canada and Ontario to provide $9.5m in aid to GM... (article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-b...rticle1162686/)

So GM has (finally) filed for bankruptcy, costing the Canadian taxpayer billions of dollars. Canadian's obviously lack the mindspace to comprehend the size of the bailout, so I thought I might put it into some terms.

This bailout has saved 20-30k jobs in specifically Southern Ontario. The government is investing $9.5B on top of the $6b on May 23rd where we all paid for GM's over generous pension plan to the workers. So we've paid $15.5b for 20-30k jobs.

- That's $517,000 per job (assuming 30k jobs saved). It will take the average autoworker 18 years to pay that back in taxes.

- That's roughly $500 per Canadian or on average $2,000 per Canadian family in taxpayer funded costs.

- That's more than 50% of the entire corporate income tax estimated to be paid this year ($26b)

- This increases our national debt by approximately 5% and comes with it approximately $650mm in interest costs in the next year.

Canadians should be outraged. Canadians should be up in arms. Give me $15.5b and I'll employ 10x as many people of higher education than these lowlife autoworkers. We have guarnteed pensions that the majority of Canadians could only dream of. We've created permenant wards of the state.

And worst off, we've cost autoworkers at Toyota and Honda and Nissan plants in Canada their jobs, as they received no bailout. They'll certainly be unable to maintain their staff levels in this recession with their biggest competitors operating for free for a few years.

THIS HAS NOT SAVED A JOB. This has transferred jobs from Toyota (profitable) to GM (not-profitable). This is the largest socialist abuse of the public purse in Canadian history. It has destroyed free market principles (giving the union more than the bond holders for less debt forgiveness). It has permenantly distorted the market for automobiles around the world.

And worst off... yes indeed.... THIS IS NOT A CANADIAN COMPANY! We've bailed out Obama's pet firm. Seriously? We've given $15.5b to an American company to protect a miniscual amount of jobs in Southern Ontario.

Why not support the oilsand companies, true Canadian champions like Suncor, Nexen and Talisman who are struggling to keep their employees and contractors on the job through this recession? Many more people lost their jobs this year in the oilsands than in car plants.

Why? Because it's in Alberta. And money only goes one way in this country. From Alberta oilmen to Ontario politicans. Ottawa would never be seen to be bailing out a Canadian champion like Suncor, saving 10-15k professional jobs! Instead, they bailout a US company!

And that's why we need to leave this country. Alberta needs to go. Thought is no longer rational in Ottawa. It's all about take from us, and give to the East. That needs to end. And the only way to do it is to leave.

[Smallc]

Yes....look around at Canada not working.... People on the right need to calm down and quit crying and screaming. Not everything can always happen the way you want it to go. That doesn't make it bad and that doesn't mean things aren't working.

[geoffrey]

What? This is no big deal? You do realise that your going to be paying this off the rest of your life. Your ok with that? Your ok with shipping $15.5b to a US company and inflated pensions?

[Smallc]

What? This is no big deal? You do realise that your going to be paying this off the rest of your life. Your ok with that? Your ok with shipping $15.5b to a US company and inflated pensions?

It's not about the company so much as it's about the over 600K jobs in Canada that depend on the industry. There are about 500K jobs in Ontario and 70K in Alberta that directly depend on GM, Chrylser, and Ford alone. This has been widely reported. This isn't only about saving the few thousand jobs at GM, there's a much larger picture here....and 15.5B shouldn't take years to pay off if we havea government that knows how to run a surplus when we come out of this recession.

[bush_cheney2004]

What? This is no big deal? You do realise that your going to be paying this off the rest of your life. Your ok with that? Your ok with shipping $15.5b to a US company and inflated pensions?

That's about $517,000 per vote. A bit pricey, but then someone would just whine about the welfare costs for unemployed auto workers and related jobs (lost).

[geoffrey]

That's ABSURD. Canadians will consume roughly the same amount of cars regardless of the existance of GM! If GM isn't making the cars, Toyota and other Canadian-based factories will make them instead! Part markers will shift to making parts for Toyota or Honda and other "replacement" companies.

Toyota is as "Canadian" as GM is now in terms of % of mix made in Canada.

The losses are WAY overstated. Union jobs may go, but more reasonable jobs will take their place. And we'll have better cars.

Just because GM exists doesn't mean we'll need more parts or cars. That doesn't make sense. The jobs will just shift to better companies.

[Smallc]

That's ABSURD. Canadians will consume roughly the same amount of cars regardless of the existance of GM! If GM isn't making the cars, Toyota and other Canadian-based factories will make them instead!

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. There are many companies that only manufacture certain things and that only manufacture for certain companies. The riple effect through the economy would be terrible. There are many things that depend on the auto industry...entire cities in fact.

Toyota is as "Canadian" as GM is now in terms of % of mix made in Canada.

That's very true, and I would hope that we would come to their rescue (just as the Japanese government has already done) if necessary.

The losses are WAY overstated. Union jobs may go, but more reasonable jobs will take their place. And we'll have better cars.

since you have no numbers to back that up, and there are numbers that clearly say otherwise....I think I'll believe the other numbers.

Just because GM exists doesn't mean we'll need more parts or cars. That doesn't make sense. The jobs will just shift to better companies.

Again, it doesn't work that way. When an entire city is dependant on one company, there's nothing that they can shift to in the short to medium term.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Smallc

[Dave_ON]

The number of Albertan separatists are few and far between, but what many of them fail to realize is that leaving confederacy would be nigh on impossible for a number of legal reasons.

Namely the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan were created BY confederation on September 5th 1905, they did not join confederation as did the other provinces. Also, Alberta was comprised of a chunk of the NW territories and what was formerly known as Rupert’s land which was controlled by the Hudson’s Bay Company before it reverted to the dominion of Canada. Rupert’s land was dissolved in 1870 and the entire region became part of the NW territories. Alberta is merely a subdivision of the NW territories. So as they did not join confederation, but rather were created by the dominion of Canada, it is not very likely that this is even constitutionally possible.

So if you want to leave, no one is stopping you, but don’t assume you get to take the land and its resources with you when you go.

[Smallc]

The number of Albertan separatists are few and far between

Yes, I wonder why so many of them end up on the internet?

[geoffrey]

So Ontario will continue to milk our wealth forever, and we can do nothing about it because we don't have a considerable chunk of votes? That's great. I'm glad you acknowledge the situation.

A majority vote would be hard to ignore. Imprisioning a population would look really bad internationally, especially since Harper set a precendent in supporting Georgia's departure from Russia. Anyways, the public support isn't there so it's not a real threat, I agree.

By the way, mineral resources were given to the province of Alberta quite specifically in 1905, so they probably come as a package upon departure.

None the less, the imbalance in confederation is very real. Whether or not anything can be done is a legal issue. Whether something SHOULD be done is a moral one.

[Smallc]

So Ontario will continue to milk our wealth forever

Ontario has not taken one cent from any other province....not even today under Equalization...and Ontario complains much less loudly. As for the complaint about the votes in the east....well...people matter more than money in a democracy. That's why equalization exists. Under the Clarity Act, no province can leave without a clear majoiry vote and the agreement of all partners in Confederation....good luck with that.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Smallc

[Moonbox]

So Ontario will continue to milk our wealth forever, and we can do nothing about it because we don't have a considerable chunk of votes? That's great. I'm glad you acknowledge the situation.

Considering that being robbed blind has been Ontario's problem far longer than it has been Alberta's, I'm confused at what you're saying here. The auto bailouts are a pittance compaired to how big our economy is and how much money we've doled out to everyone else. I don't agree with how they're being done, especially how we're financing over-generous pensions for greedy GM workers, but that's something altogether different.

[Shady]

That's very true, and I would hope that we would come to their rescue

No, I'd hope that we wouldn't. Failing business models should be allowed to fail, and not be rewarded with tax-payer money.

[Dave_ON]

Considering that being robbed blind has been Ontario's problem far longer than it has been Alberta's, I'm confused at what you're saying here. The auto bailouts are a pittance compaired to how big our economy is and how much money we've doled out to everyone else. I don't agree with how they're being done, especially how we're financing over-generous pensions for greedy GM workers, but that's something altogether different.

Don't you know that the common "wisdom" is Alberta pays more, than everyone else in Canada? At least that's what Albertans tell themselves. Ontario pays much more in equalization, and has been paying it for longer, than Alberta, we just don't whine about it like they do.

[Smallc]

No, I'd hope that we wouldn't. Failing business models should be allowed to fail, and not be rewarded with tax-payer money.

Well, we're not all conservatives.

[Oleg Bach]

Well, we're not all conservatives.

Translation. we are not all idots. This is a coup! Where is your mind liberal one? RESTRUCTURING? uNTIL -WE PUT THE BASTARDS IN JAIL. THAT CAUSED THIS TRADE DISPLACEMENT WITH JAPAN...THE ONES TRAT TRASHED OUR INDUSTRY....WHO CAUSED THIS 20 YEARS AGO WE WILL NEVER HAVE RELIEF - GIVE ME THE NAMES OF THE MEN THAT ARRANGED THE KILLING OF THE NORTH AMEICAN AUTO INDUSTRY - THROUGH QUICK PROFITS THOURH BETREAL... THEN all will be satisfied--- no way in hell will they recover the industry unless they totallly and harsly betray Japan,,, how hard can it be? Block Japans imports and force North Americans to buy domestic 0- F Japan - what have they done for us lately other than suck our blood.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The reason so many separatists from Alberta appear on the internet is because there are so many of us. Duhhh!

Look people, IF the people of Alberta ever elected a government with enough balls to stand up for its citizens, then I will suggest that Alberta carefully study every move Quebec has made. There is a hell of a lot of things done by that province that is beneficial to its citizens.

Here is what Alberta SHOULD do;

1) Repatriate the Alberta Act to the Alberta Legislature

2) Write an Alberta Provincial Constitution

3) Opt out of every possible federal program

4) Establish an Alberta Pension Plan

5) Establish a Alberta Provincial Police Force

6) Establish an English version of Quebec's Bill 101

7) Collect all taxes due and remit that portion deemed to be federal to the Government of Canada

We don't have to separate in order to get what we want people. We can do it on our own, thank you very much. We have the people, we have the resources and we even have our own bank! There is nothing that can prevent us should we ever determine to act in our own best interests.

While I absolutely detest both the equalization and transfer payments formulas because they discriminate against my province, I do understand that there are in fact many places where the nanny state provides cradle to grave benefits that have to be paid for by somebody. I understand that there is a gun held to our head by the feds and that we are not likely to be ALLOWED to leave confederation without a fight. But that doesn't mean that I will ever bow down to the will of Ottawa without having a say first.

[Smallc]

You don't have the right to opt out of every federal program.

Oh,a nd polls show that at maximum, sepratism in Alberta runs at 20%...that's nowhere near the level in Quebec and probably not much higher than most places on earth. Polls also show that Albertans are among the proudest Canadians....the rest of you complain constantly and forget why they are so proud.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Smallc

[Shady]

Well, we're not all conservatives.

It's not about liberal or conservative, it's about right and wrong. We shouldn't reward bad behavior, and we shouldn't be subsidizing failure.

[Oleg Bach]

It's a common coup. The robber barons have just robbed us again. It's not about money - It's about these jerks sticking it up our ass = these power freaks - are playing a game- they have the mentality of an Idiot savant - 14 year old - need I say more?

[Smallc]

It's not about liberal or conservative, it's about right and wrong. We shouldn't reward bad behavior, and we shouldn't be subsidizing failure.

And we shouldn't put our economy in jeopardy just so we can walk an ideological line.

[Smallc]

Alberta separatism is not nearly as prevalant as some on this board would like to make out. Alberta nationalism though...like Quebec nationalism, seems to be. Fortunately, Canadian nationalism also seems to be common in Alberta, and even in Quebec.

[Oleg Bach]

Alberta separatism is not nearly as prevalant as some on this board would like to make out. Alberta nationalism though...like Quebec nationalism, seems to be. Fortunately, Canadian nationalism also seems to be common in Alberta, and even in Quebec.

Coup.

[Shady]

And we shouldn't put our economy in jeopardy just so we can walk an ideological line.

It's not about putting our economy in jeopardy, it's about structured bankruptcy instead of billion dollar bailouts. And you don't strengthen an economy by proping up weak and failing unproductive companies. If that was the case, the Soviet Union would of had the strongest economy in the world. It didn't.

[Smallc]

It's not about putting our economy in jeopardy, it's about structured bankruptcy instead of billion dollar bailouts.

And that's what they're doing. GM would never make it through bankruptcy without help.