GM Bailout

[Jerry J. Fortin]

You don't have the right to opt out of every federal program.

Who said that we could? It wasn't me, perhaps you should go back and read what I actually said.

Oh,a nd polls show that at maximum, sepratism in Alberta runs at 20%...that's nowhere near the level in Quebec and probably not much higher than most places on earth. Polls also show that Albertans are among the proudest Canadians....the rest of you complain constantly and forget why they are so proud.

Well the polls are never wrong are they? Even at 20%, if that many people actually responded to a poll that is, then you would have to admit something else. Lets use those numbers on a little venture in extrapolated logic shall we...

In the last federal election about 60% of the population in Alberta turned out to vote. Making a leap in faith, we assume that the 20% number you quote is equated in the same manner and we end up with one out of every three Albertans in favour of separation. That is substantially higher than one out of five. Now consider that the Liberals will possibly form the next government, what do you think Albertans would say about that, given that there will likely be another Conservative landslide here. In addition consider this, JMCK Polling in April 2004, was contracted by The Alberta Residents League and they found that among PC voters 81 percent agreed that Alberta’s equalization payments are “too much.” Now that is a nice number for you, coming from the ruling dynasty of the Progressive Conservative Party of Alberta. With that in mind I will suggest that those folks who don't live here can't really take the pulse of the citizens by merely reading the most popular propaganda and drawing their own conclusions. Ya hafta be here to make that stick!

So what I am saying is that there are numerous variables to take into the consideration of the political equation in Alberta. Here is another little tidbit for you, there is another Trudeau in the wings of the Liberal Party of Canada. Now apply your logic to the equation and think about how Albertans will perceive this person who will sit in Ottawa and make judgments affecting the citizens of Alberta............

[Smallc]

If Alberta wants to leave that bad, it can I suppose...oh wait, it probably can't. I have very little respect for the separatist cause, especially from a province that has done so well in Confederation. I don't for a minute believe that even a significant minority wishes to separate from Canada, Equalization or no.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Smallc

[Jerry J. Fortin]

If Alberta wants to leave that bad, it can I suppose...oh wait, it probably can't. I have very little respect for the separatist cause, especially from a province that has done so well in Confederation. I don't for a minute believe that even a significant minority wishes to separate from Canada, Equalization or no.

You can believe what you want, its a free country! Just keep in mind that politics make strange bedfellows. All manner of interesting things are possible if the Liberals gain power.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I forgot to mention that I will most likely vote Liberal next election, the NDP guys can't seem to find a good candidate in this corner of the world.

[Smallc]

So you are voting Liberal....so that you can leave? Alberta will one day get over its fear of Liberals.

[scorpio]

Alberta will one day get over its fear of Liberals.

Don't know about that. I've lived in Alberta all my life and voted since 1971. This anti-Trudeau thing is part of our lives unfortunately. Most people out here would rather die than change their political leanings. At least other Provinces take a chance with other parties, not here it seems. For the record I vote ABC: anything but conservative.

[Smallc]

Ahh...I'm sure enough will switch over in reasonable time for other parties to get a few seats....after all...almost half the people don't vote Conservative....perhaps we do need PR.

[August1991]

Your OP is quite the rant, Geoffrey.

And worst off... yes indeed.... THIS IS NOT A CANADIAN COMPANY! We've bailed out Obama's pet firm. Seriously? We've given $15.5b to an American company to protect a miniscual amount of jobs in Southern Ontario.

If I understand properly, the Canadian/Ontario governments just bought 12.5% of teh outstanding shares of the New GM USA. (The US federal government owns 60% of GM USA.) GM Canada, a wholly owned subsidiary, will not go into bankruptcy.

We get one director on the Board of GM USA and an understanding that between 16%-19% of vehicles produced by GM in North America will be produced in Canada.

GM USA's share price is around 70 cents. A rough back of teh envelope calculation suggests that our "investment" will be profitable if the share price goes to $130.

-----

I think Harper is between a rock and a hard place. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Unfortunately, he will get little or no credit. OTOH, except in Quebec, the people who oppose this decision have no way to express their opposition. And is the Bloc really any different - it too just wants more money.

This bailout dwarfs anything ever given to any industry anywhere in Canada.

Last point: If the Liberals were in power now, and were organizing this subsidy, Harper would be screaming.

[Leafless]

This bailout dwarfs anything ever given to any industry anywhere in Canada.

All this bailout is doing is contributing to a record high deficit in Ontario.

TORONTO — Make room in that gaping fiscal hole you're digging Canada -- beleaguered Ontario is jumping in with $56.8 billion in deficit spending over seven years.

The province will sink into massive shortfalls as it rips apart its tax system and pumps the economy full of high-octane infrastructure dollars designed to overhaul its economic clunker into a leaner, meaner, more business-friendly machine.

Ontario is leading a parade of deficit spending among the provinces hard hit by the global economic downturn, with only Saskatchewan and Manitoba staying on the sidelines so far.

The federal government is expected to rack up $85 billion in deficits by the spring of 2013, when it hopes to break free from the recession.

But it will take the country's most populous province until 2015 to balance the books again, pushing its accumulated deficit to about $162 billion.

And what does this mean for the tax payers of Ontario:

The budget is "worthless" for people looking for hope in the midst of a painful recession, said interim Progressive Conservative Leader Bob Runciman.

Rather than put Ontario on the path to prosperity, it will saddle the province with the biggest debt in its history, he added.

"It means more taxes today on everything from gasoline to everyday services," he said.

"And it means more taxes tomorrow when we have to pay for (Premier) Dalton McGuinty's record deficit."

http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNe...6/?hub=CP24Home

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Ahh...I'm sure enough will switch over in reasonable time for other parties to get a few seats....after all...almost half the people don't vote Conservative....perhaps we do need PR.

Almost half the people don't vote at all here. Of those that did in the 2008 federal election a staggering 64.7 % voted Conservative.

[Smallc]

You'd have to go back an election or two to get the true numbers....the last election was....different.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

You'd have to go back an election or two to get the true numbers....the last election was....different.

Alright then; in 2006 it was 65% support for Conservatives, in 2004 it was 61.7%, in 2000 it was 58.9%, in 1997 it was 54.6%. Is that enough for you? These folks out here really support the right wing in droves dude.

[Smallc]

Yesh, they do support the right wing, I agree, but as you can see there is a trend going on there. I hope that Ignatieff can reverse that trend....I think he may be able to...but it will take time.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Yesh, they do support the right wing, I agree, but as you can see there is a trend going on there. I hope that Ignatieff can reverse that trend....I think he may be able to...but it will take time.

The trend is upward! Hoping that the Liberals will reverse that is like hoping for rain in the desert. You can hope, but...........

[Smallc]

Yes, the trend is upwards, but trends never hold forever.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Yes, the trend is upwards, but trends never hold forever.

That is true! Still a Liberal Government of Canada would do little to reverse the trend, it would only push more people into the Conservative corner. The Liberals may have been the first government in Alberta, but since that forst government fell, there has not been another Liberal one since here. The place is decidedly right wing.

[Smallc]

Well, they could make gains in Edmonton...they don't call it redmonton for nothing.

[madmax]

What? This is no big deal? You do realise that your going to be paying this off the rest of your life. Your ok with that? Your ok with shipping $15.5b to a US company and inflated pensions?

The Pensions are monies borrowed against by GM thus taking monies from a non secured fund in a bankruptcy situation. If the pensions were secured in a Bankruptcy situation, much like the banks are a secured creditor, there'd be one less thing for you to blow a gasket over.

[Topaz]

In the next election, it will be interesting to see the supporters of Harper, of the last election ,will support him again even with the country's huge deficit, he's loaning of money to GM and Chrysler and knowing we will only get back 1.2 Bil of that money as Harper said yesterday on CTV. IF they vote him back in, then they must not be against the taxes going up or selling off Canada's crown properties. I think the cost of unemployed is higher than the loans to the auto sector. No one is going to buy autos if they don't have a job and the ones with a job will save so if they do lose their jobs they have something saved besides EI. Isn't the EI weekly around $400-450? and there's what around 450,000 on EI and the total of unemployed around 650,000? Anyone know for sure? The minister keeps saying these people are being trained for the jobs of the future?? What jobs are in the future??

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Well, they could make gains in Edmonton...they don't call it redmonton for nothing.

Landslide Annie! She went down in flames for a change, still smoking last I heard. But don't bet on too many Liberals getting elected here, even Edmonton tossed what they had.

[Smallc]

I wouldn't expect too many...One or two is realistic though in the next couple elections.

[madmax]

So GM has (finally) filed for bankruptcy, costing the Canadian taxpayer billions of dollars. Canadian's obviously lack the mindspace to comprehend the size of the bailout, so I thought I might put it into some terms.

Don't hold back....But Geoffrey, I expressed nearly a year ago that GM was taking Government Money and diverting the funds to build enterprises around the Globe. I also said that GM would likely declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is a way to screw people. This is normal business.

This bailout has saved 20-30k jobs in specifically Southern Ontario. The government is investing $9.5B on top of the $6b on May 23rd where we all paid for GM's over generous pension plan to the workers. So we've paid $15.5b for 20-30k jobs.

You might want to fall for the Pension diversion, but that is nothing in the grand scheme of globalization and bankruptcy law. That said, what you call an investment, I consider peeing into a lake to see it rise. I don't expect 20,000 to 30000 jobs to be saved, I expect that there will be 70,000 jobs lost. Perhaps a fraction of the remaining 20,000 jobs will remain in Canada. The rest of the work is to be relocated. This is about helping GM.

- That's $517,000 per job (assuming 30k jobs saved). It will take the average autoworker 18 years to pay that back in taxes.

There is no intent to repay the monies. Only 1.3 Billion is to be repayed over 8 years.

Enjoy....

Canadians should be outraged. Canadians should be up in arms. Give me $15.5b and I'll employ 10x as many people of higher education than these lowlife autoworkers. We have guarnteed pensions that the majority of Canadians could only dream of. We've created permenant wards of the state.

People that build vehicles are lowlifes. But not the company? Look you are a pretty nice guy, decent with a sharp pencil, but that money is better in my pocket then yours.

So... how do you like Corporate Welfare.... It is a Traditional Conservative and Liberal scam that has been going on for a Century. This is just one figure of many, and more interesting because of GM applying for Bankruptcy. This is considered good business.

And worst off, we've cost autoworkers at Toyota and Honda and Nissan plants in Canada their jobs, as they received no bailout. They'll certainly be unable to maintain their staff levels in this recession with their biggest competitors operating for free for a few years.

What Nissan plant?

Toyota and Honda are not getting "bailouts" because they are not "bankrupt" or applying for bankruptcy protection. Do you think they are NOT getting corporate incentives and financial help from the Federal and Provincial Government??? Tsk tsk tsk. Silence is golden in times like these.

Do you hear a peep from Ford???

Toyota, Honda have cut back enormously on staff including agency staff. At the end of the day, you have to sell your product.

Cuts are occurring in these plants thus the bar is lowering relatively quickly.

However, calling people that go to work everyday lowlifes is pretty low for you and out of character.

THIS HAS NOT SAVED A JOB. This has transferred jobs from Toyota (profitable) to GM (not-profitable). This is the largest socialist abuse of the public purse in Canadian history. It has destroyed free market principles (giving the union more than the bond holders for less debt forgiveness). It has permenantly distorted the market for automobiles around the world.

I agree, it HAS NOT SAVED a JOB and never has been the intent to save a job. THis is a transference to give GM time to finish its relocation of production to Mexico and China. Now some to the US as well as they have discovered they need some of these jobs back.

However, I disagree that this has transferred jobs from Toyota to GM. The fact is that Toyota, and Honda located in the region of other Auto plants because of the technology, skilled workforce, and support system for auto industry. It is because it made a hell of alot of sense to build here. However, Toyota is now shitting bricks because they built there new plant here at a time when every other manufacturer has been making plans for massive downsizing and relocation of production.

No matter what you might think, Toyota has no interest in seeing the Ontario Automotive Industry collapse in Rapid fashion.

That said, why should the auto industry stay in Ontario when Industry is Leaving Canada as a whole? There is no industrial Policies, and the Conservatives and Ontario Liberals are about the worst with regards to the manufacturing sector. They wish it go away, but that doesn't prevent them from propping up corporations without job guarrantees.

And worst off... yes indeed.... THIS IS NOT A CANADIAN COMPANY! We've bailed out Obama's pet firm. Seriously? We've given $15.5b to an American company to protect a miniscual amount of jobs in Southern Ontario.

Yes, and your point is...... This is how large global corporations work. Its your government that is into corporate welfare. Gotta keep this American Behemoth going....

Why not support the oilsand companies, true Canadian champions like Suncor, Nexen and Talisman who are struggling to keep their employees and contractors on the job through this recession? Many more people lost their jobs this year in the oilsands than in car plants.

And only laughing at the turndown a few short months ago, but now its important. If you think that the Oil Industry doesn't receive Government money then you are naive. However, It needs to be pointed out that when it became apparent that the Canadian Economy was in jeapardy, the CPC said everything was fine. When policies could be drafted, they drank draft and pretended that all is well. If you believe in Free Markets, let those companies fend for themselves, instead your asking for these companies to belly up to the trough. Which is it, or are you jealous?

When a policy was required, the CPC answer was TAX CUTS and when it was stated that Tax cuts don't help when you have no profits, it was ignored. It was ignored until the BANKS said they wanted DIRECT FISCAL INPUT from teh government and were the first in line for Corporate Welfare. We can't make the money on our own, just give us the cash please....

Why? Because it's in Alberta. And money only goes one way in this country. From Alberta oilmen to Ontario politicans. Ottawa would never be seen to be bailing out a Canadian champion like Suncor, saving 10-15k professional jobs! Instead, they bailout a US company!

Its not because its in Alberta. Besides, the Government got out of the oil industry selling out all their shares in Petro Canada. The same will happen for GM.

Its business not Nationalism or Regionalism. ITs pork. Its NOt about jobs or a strong economy.

It is the weakest last minute action from a pathetic and economically challenged government with a doofus as a finance minister and remember....

Stephen Harper is an Economist...

And that's why we need to leave this country. Alberta needs to go. Thought is no longer rational in Ottawa. It's all about take from us, and give to the East. That needs to end. And the only way to do it is to leave.

Bullshit.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Don't hold back....But Geoffrey, I expressed nearly a year ago that GM was taking Government Money and diverting the funds to build enterprises around the Globe. I also said that GM would likely declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is a way to screw people. This is normal business.

You might want to fall for the Pension diversion, but that is nothing in the grand scheme of globalization and bankruptcy law. That said, what you call an investment, I consider peeing into a lake to see it rise. I don't expect 20,000 to 30000 jobs to be saved, I expect that there will be 70,000 jobs lost. Perhaps a fraction of the remaining 20,000 jobs will remain in Canada. The rest of the work is to be relocated. This is about helping GM.

There is no intent to repay the monies. Only 1.3 Billion is to be repayed over 8 years.

Enjoy....

People that build vehicles are lowlifes. But not the company? Look you are a pretty nice guy, decent with a sharp pencil, but that money is better in my pocket then yours.

So... how do you like Corporate Welfare.... It is a Traditional Conservative and Liberal scam that has been going on for a Century. This is just one figure of many, and more interesting because of GM applying for Bankruptcy. This is considered good business.

What Nissan plant?

Toyota and Honda are not getting "bailouts" because they are not "bankrupt" or applying for bankruptcy protection. Do you think they are NOT getting corporate incentives and financial help from the Federal and Provincial Government??? Tsk tsk tsk. Silence is golden in times like these.

Do you hear a peep from Ford???

Toyota, Honda have cut back enormously on staff including agency staff. At the end of the day, you have to sell your product.

Cuts are occurring in these plants thus the bar is lowering relatively quickly.

However, calling people that go to work everyday lowlifes is pretty low for you and out of character.

I agree, it HAS NOT SAVED a JOB and never has been the intent to save a job. THis is a transference to give GM time to finish its relocation of production to Mexico and China. Now some to the US as well as they have discovered they need some of these jobs back.

However, I disagree that this has transferred jobs from Toyota to GM. The fact is that Toyota, and Honda located in the region of other Auto plants because of the technology, skilled workforce, and support system for auto industry. It is because it made a hell of alot of sense to build here. However, Toyota is now shitting bricks because they built there new plant here at a time when every other manufacturer has been making plans for massive downsizing and relocation of production.

No matter what you might think, Toyota has no interest in seeing the Ontario Automotive Industry collapse in Rapid fashion.

That said, why should the auto industry stay in Ontario when Industry is Leaving Canada as a whole? There is no industrial Policies, and the Conservatives and Ontario Liberals are about the worst with regards to the manufacturing sector. They wish it go away, but that doesn't prevent them from propping up corporations without job guarrantees.

Yes, and your point is...... This is how large global corporations work. Its your government that is into corporate welfare. Gotta keep this American Behemoth going....

And only laughing at the turndown a few short months ago, but now its important. If you think that the Oil Industry doesn't receive Government money then you are naive. However, It needs to be pointed out that when it became apparent that the Canadian Economy was in jeapardy, the CPC said everything was fine. When policies could be drafted, they drank draft and pretended that all is well. If you believe in Free Markets, let those companies fend for themselves, instead your asking for these companies to belly up to the trough. Which is it, or are you jealous?

When a policy was required, the CPC answer was TAX CUTS and when it was stated that Tax cuts don't help when you have no profits, it was ignored. It was ignored until the BANKS said they wanted DIRECT FISCAL INPUT from teh government and were the first in line for Corporate Welfare. We can't make the money on our own, just give us the cash please....

Its not because its in Alberta. Besides, the Government got out of the oil industry selling out all their shares in Petro Canada. The same will happen for GM.

Its business not Nationalism or Regionalism. ITs pork. Its NOt about jobs or a strong economy.

It is the weakest last minute action from a pathetic and economically challenged government with a doofus as a finance minister and remember....

Stephen Harper is an Economist...

Bullshit.

Yikes! I guess he won't vote for Super Steve...

[Moonbox]

I was reading the Globe today and found this little tidbit of information.

Canada's stake in GM restructuring

To summarize what I found pretty fishy is that Canadian governments are getting a 12.5% equity stake in the new GM in exchange for $10B in bailout money. For us to recover our 'investment' we'll probably need GM share prices to be as high as $120+ CAD (from other crap I've read). Part of the agreement, however, is that Canadian governments 'divest' their ownership of GM over set periods of time. After 3 years, we must sell 35% of our stake, 65% after 6 years, and the whole thing after 8.

Now what do you people think the chances are we recover even half of what we're throwing away here? We'll never see that money again. The tax revenues from GM and parts suppliers will never make up the difference. This is so pathetic it hurts.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Charles Anthony
merged thread, old title: "GM deal looks like a stinker, and we're all going to have to pay...."

[Shady]

This anti-Trudeau thing is part of our lives unfortunately

Imagine that. People remembering, and not voting for a party that has continually and historically treated them like crap. Wow, how suprising.

The Liberals can reverse the trend, only when they reverse their policies.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Shady