Why do American Christians approve of torture?

[dub]

Believe Me, It’s Torture

What more can be added to the debate over U.S. interrogation methods, and whether waterboarding is torture? Try firsthand experience. The author undergoes the controversial drowning technique, at the hands of men who once trained American soldiers to resist—not inflict—it.

it starts out like this:

It goes without saying that I knew I could stop the process at any time, and that when it was all over I would be released into happy daylight rather than returned to a darkened cell. But it’s been well said that cowards die many times before their deaths, and it was difficult for me to completely forget the clause in the contract of indemnification that I had signed. This document (written by one who knew) stated revealingly:

“Water boarding” is a potentially dangerous activity in which the participant can receive serious and permanent (physical, emotional and psychological) injuries and even death, including injuries and death due to the respiratory and neurological systems of the body.

it ends with this:

I passed one of the most dramatic evenings of my life listening to his cold but enraged denunciation of the adoption of waterboarding by the United States. The argument goes like this:

1. Waterboarding is a deliberate torture technique and has been prosecuted as such by our judicial arm when perpetrated by others.

2. If we allow it and justify it, we cannot complain if it is employed in the future by other regimes on captive U.S. citizens. It is a method of putting American prisoners in harm’s way.

3. It may be a means of extracting information, but it is also a means of extracting junk information. (Mr. Nance told me that he had heard of someone’s being compelled to confess that he was a hermaphrodite. I later had an awful twinge while wondering if I myself could have been “dunked” this far.) To put it briefly, even the C.I.A. sources for the Washington Post story on waterboarding conceded that the information they got out of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was “not all of it reliable.” Just put a pencil line under that last phrase, or commit it to memory.

4. It opens a door that cannot be closed. Once you have posed the notorious “ticking bomb” question, and once you assume that you are in the right, what will you not do? Waterboarding not getting results fast enough? The terrorist’s clock still ticking? Well, then, bring on the thumbscrews and the pincers and the electrodes and the rack.

here is the video of him being water boarded. is there really a debate?

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...ens_video200808

[DogOnPorch]

quoting carlos mencia?

you've hit an all time low.

are you another christian who approves of torture? wwjd?

Once a Jew and now a Christian? Make up your mind, Jihadi.

[dub]

Once a Jew and now a Christian? Make up your mind, Jihadi.

you said you're not a zionist jew, so i took your word for it. so since you're on here with the unconditional love for israel, where you will try to justify all actions done by israel, i'm going to assume, since you're not a jew, you're one of those creepy 'zionist christians' who believe in the rapture crap.

are you one of those?

[DogOnPorch]

you said you're not a zionist jew, so i took your word for it. so since you're on here with the unconditional love for israel, where you will try to justify all actions done by israel, i'm going to assume, since you're not a jew, you're one of those creepy 'zionist christians' who believe in the rapture crap.

are you one of those?

I'm an existential atheist. Your god is a stupid myth to me.

[moderateamericain]

i'm sure there is a person across the world saying something similar:

i approve of terrorist attacks, i'm a muslim, i'll pay for my own sins. no man decide whether or not i'm muslim or not. that's between me and god." Ive done alot of wrong things in my life. And when it comes down to it what we do to protect are selves or our families often overrides are sense of righteousness. Its called survival. Its called protecting the things that matter to us.

I dont doubt it, thats why he cant be allowed to win this battle.

[sharkman]

So dub, any response at all to the fact that waterboarding is used on American soldiers and the left doesn't seem to be freaking out about that, only when terrorists get the treatment? Or do you ignore points you can't counter?

Also, some Canadian, French, Swedish, Chinese and Iraqi Christians also support waterboarding. So why single out Americans.

[dub]

I'm an existential atheist. Your god is a stupid myth to me.

that's odd because you support the creation of a religious state.

oh and i don't have a god.

[WIP]

looks like Borg is reacting with sensitivity to this issue and spewing out self-made statistics.

like what others do around the world changes the fact that majority of american christians approve of torture. contrary to what jesus says.

I mentioned this article on another thread; it's not just American Christians, and it's not just about a particular brand of dogma -- the fact is that basic Christian doctrine teaches obedience to authority as a high virtue, and any demagogue fascist can figure out a way to use this impulse to adhere to authority figures, for their own benefit. Hitler was defending Christian values in his speeches, and that's why during his rise to power, playwright Sinclair Lewis made this comment in reference to the growing number of demagogues in his own country who were looking to channel Hitler's strategy for an American audience: "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

Right now, I would say we are at a crossroads. If the Obama Administration turns into a weak, ineffectual government like the Weimar Republic, an economic decline will fuel the rise of Christian fascism; and you only have to check out the resentment expressed in right wing media to see how these "real Americans" view what's wrong with their country and how they intend to fix it.....and like the survey says, the devout Christians will be the least concerned of any demographic group about the use of torture against unamerican type people by a patriotic "real" Christian leader.

[dub]

So dub, any response at all to the fact that waterboarding is used on American soldiers and the left doesn't seem to be freaking out about that, only when terrorists get the treatment? Or do you ignore points you can't counter?

Also, some Canadian, French, Swedish, Chinese and Iraqi Christians also support waterboarding. So why single out Americans.

huh? what am i supposed to counter?

if you had bothered to pay attention to the original post, you would realize that this thread is about a research done on americans and the results were that majority of the christians (in america) support torture, as opposed to the non-christians.

[DogOnPorch]

that's odd because you support the creation of a religious state.

Last I looked, Israel was a parliamentary democracy. (Looking)...yup...still is.

oh and i don't have a god.

Then it must be because Hamas is a neo-Nazi group that you support them rather than being Islamic terrorists. Makes sense.

[dub]

I dont doubt it, thats why he cant be allowed to win this battle.

first of all, i appreciate your honesty. i'm happy to see that you're not here trying to change the meaning of torture.

i do have a question for you though; how can one call him or herself a christian or a muslim or a jew when their beliefs or actions go against the fundamental doctrine of the religion?

[dub]

Last I looked, Israel was a parliamentary democracy. (Looking)...yup...still is.

right. it is still a jewish state that gives privilege to those who are jewish... or did you miss the memo?

Then it must be because Hamas is a neo-Nazi group that you support them rather than being Islamic terrorists. Makes sense.

you're babbling nonsense again.

[sharkman]

huh? what am i supposed to counter?

if you had bothered to pay attention to the original post, you would realize that this thread is about a research done on americans and the results were that majority of the christians (in america) support torture, as opposed to the non-christians.

Are you not aware that the discussion has covered a number of ideas and the thread has wandered? At any rate, so what? What's it to you if the majority of American Christians support torture? All you did was link to a story and go WWJD. You made no point, just sat around waiting to troll.

[DogOnPorch]

right. it is still a jewish state that gives privilege to those who are jewish... or did you miss the memo?

Jews these days are overwhelmingly secular...much like many Christians. Can you list the special rights (that) are given to Israelis of Jewish decent over non-Jewish?

you're babbling nonsense again.

Jihadi or Nazi...either will do. Same thing in my books. Churchill's too.

Edited May 5, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[dub]

Are you not aware that the discussion has covered a number of ideas and the thread has wandered? At any rate, so what? What's it to you if the majority of American Christians support torture? All you did was link to a story and go WWJD. You made no point, just sat around waiting to troll.

i did make a point but you're the only person who didn't get it.

i will spell it out for you:

jesus and the basic christian teachings do not support torture but for some reason, majority of american christians support torture.

[dub]

Jews these days are overwhelmingly secular...much like many Christians. Can you list the special rights (that) are given to Israelis of Jewish decent over non-Jewish?

heh.

The Law of Return (Hebrew: חוק השבות, ḥok ha-shvūt) is Israeli legislation, enacted in 1950, that gives Jews, those of Jewish ancestry, and their spouses the right to migrate to and settle in Israel and gain citizenship.

[sharkman]

i did make a point but you're the only person who didn't get it.

i will spell it out for you:

jesus and the basic christian teachings do not support torture but for some reason, majority of american christians support torture.

Jesus tortured. He used the fear of torture to also warn people.

[M.Dancer]

Can you list the special rights (that) are given to Israelis of Jewish decent over non-Jewish?

heh.

The Law of Return (Hebrew: חוק השבות, ḥok ha-shvūt) is Israeli legislation, enacted in 1950, that gives Jews, those of Jewish ancestry, and their spouses the right to migrate to and settle in Israel and gain citizenship.

Let me get this right..you are claiming that Israel gives Israelis the right to immigrate to Israel?

[dub]

Jesus tortured. He used the fear of torture to also warn people.

???

[dub]

Let me get this right..you are claiming that Israel gives Israelis the right to immigrate to Israel?

wait to jump in there to help your little buddy. he kind of went mute there.

israel, the jewish state, gives special rights to those who are jewish. is there any disagreement to this?

[M.Dancer]

wait to jump in there to help your little buddy. he kind of went mute there.

israel, the jewish state, gives special rights to those who are jewish. is there any disagreement to this?

That's a good answer to another question, but not the question that was given to you.

Here, take another swing....

Can you list the special rights (that) are given to Israelis of Jewish decent over non-Jewish(Israelis)?

On another tangent, Japan, UK, Ireland and many others also have a law of return....for them those it apllies to people who are not citizens of Japan, UK or Ireland....

[DogOnPorch]

That's a good answer to another question, but not the question that was given to you.

Here, take another swing....

Can you list the special rights (that) are given to Israelis of Jewish decent over non-Jewish(Israelis)?

On another tangent, Japan, UK, Ireland and many others also have a law of return....for them those it apllies to people who are not citizens of Japan, UK or Ireland....

That was indeed my question. Once in Israel, are you treated differently under the law? If so, how? Re: Right of return...I apparently can exploit 'right of return' to Germany even though I've never set foot there.

One might also question your sincerity as you claim to not be religious yet do not start threads on say: Saudi Arabia or the evils of Sharia Law. Only Jews attract your attention. So what are you, really? A neo-Nazi, a Muslim with a chip on his shoulder or some kind of dupe for the enemy?

[DogOnPorch]

wait to jump in there to help your little buddy. he kind of went mute there.

Little buddy works.

[dub]

That's a good answer to another question, but not the question that was given to you.

before you continue to go off track, here is a re-cap:

DoP, announced to the world that he is an "existential atheist" (lol - he sure loves the whole grouping thing) and i asked him, then why he supports the creation of a religious state. he tried avoiding the blatantly obvious, which is, "Israel is a Jewish State = Israel is a religious state" by giving the answer: "but israel is a parliamentary democracy" like being a so-called democracy and being a jewish state are mutually exclusive.

this is when i reminded him that israel is a jewish state that gives privilege to those who are jewish. a simple fact that cannot be denied.

his ambiguous response does not change the fact that israel has different citizenship rules based on the religion you follow.

Here, take another swing....

so you take a crack at it, since DoP tried to weasel his way out of it: does israel give an israeli citizenship advantage to those who follow the jewish religion over those who follow a different religion?.

Can you list the special rights (that) are given to Israelis of Jewish decent over non-Jewish(Israelis)?

i will respond to this when the original question is responded to.

On another tangent, Japan, UK, Ireland and many others also have a law of return....for them those it apllies to people who are not citizens of Japan, UK or Ireland....

their laws are not based on the person's religious background.

Edited May 6, 2009 by dub

[WIP]

i did make a point but you're the only person who didn't get it.

i will spell it out for you:

jesus and the basic christian teachings do not support torture but for some reason, majority of american christians support torture.

Oh really! Then what the hell do you call HELL! Most Christians interpret the verses of everlasting fire as meaning that those who reject salvation are burned for eternity....but basic christian teaching doesn't support torture, you say.

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.