Muslim Honor Killing's in N.A!

[cybercoma]

Are you seriously denying that this is going on in Canada? I want to get this on record before I embarrass you.

I'm not in denial about anything. There may be honour killings in Canada, but I don't know how many. What I am asking you for is information to support your claim, or the information that you have read that made you come to your conclusions that honour killings are on the rise and are particular to Muslims. Furthermore, I want you to show where Muslims in Canada have supported this behaviour and other abuses towards women by referring to Sharia Law. No one gives a crap about your opinion. You need to back up what you're saying by making the evidence available to others to draw their own conclusions. If you're being honest, then most people should agree with you.

[CANADIEN]

Has their been any studies on the number of honour killings in Canada?

You tell us. After all, you claim that it is a growing phenomenum. You certainly have date or studies to prove it.

[JB Globe]

I guess there are no studies or statistics after all.

Suprise.

[Oleg Bach]

Mr. Canada uses the American spelling of honour. I am suspect of his loyality to the nation and his possible covert ties to America. Could we not douse him with a flamable liquid and do out of honour?

[sharkman]

Perhaps honour killings only occur in countries where the Muslim faith holds sway. No doubt you all feel much better about that.

[guyser]

Perhaps honour killings only occur in countries where the Muslim faith holds sway.

Naw...they happen in pretty much every country, Muslim or not.

[sharkman]

Naw...they happen in pretty much every country, Muslim or not.

They might in countries where religions such as the Muslim culture have a presence, but they don't happen, for instance, in Canada's traditional culture. It's not acceptible in Christian cultures, but it is acceptable in some religions.

They may do it here occasionally, but then they either have to flee the country, or get arrested. Big difference.

[guyser]

They might in countries where religions such as the Muslim culture have a presence,

Would one Muslim in a country suffice?

but they don't happen, for instance, in Canada's traditional culture. It's not acceptible in Christian cultures, but it is acceptable in some religions.

They may do it here occasionally, but then they either have to flee the country, or get arrested. Big difference.

Happens here, there and everywhere. Laws exist in most of those places to prosecute. It is not part of the mainstream Muslim culture, but exists in the uber ones.

[Oleg Bach]

Killing someone does not bring honour. It brings dishonour. Just thought I would mention that - it's logic.

[Shady]

Muslim Man charged with wife's gruesome death

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. (WIVB) - A shocking and gruesome story of a T.V. station owner's wife, found decapitated at the Bridge's Muslim T.V. network in Orchard Park. In pictures of happier times, 37-year-old Aasiya Zubair and her 44-year-old husband Mo Hassan, who founded Bridges T.V. Thursday evening, police converge on the station's Orchard Park studio and office. "The worst that I've seen, yeah," said Andrew Benz, Orchard Park Police Chief.

Link

The most ironic part of the story:

The owner of a cable TV network created to promote better understanding of Muslims in America

[Oleg Bach]

Muslim Man charged with wife's gruesome death

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. (WIVB) - A shocking and gruesome story of a T.V. station owner's wife, found decapitated at the Bridge's Muslim T.V. network in Orchard Park. In pictures of happier times, 37-year-old Aasiya Zubair and her 44-year-old husband Mo Hassan, who founded Bridges T.V. Thursday evening, police converge on the station's Orchard Park studio and office. "The worst that I've seen, yeah," said Andrew Benz, Orchard Park Police Chief.

Link

The most ironic part of the story:

The owner of a cable TV network created to promote better understanding of Muslims in America

This is not a Muslim thing..this is a male human occurance...just that the Muslim males have a support system built into the religion that sort of allows the male to give into his rage and justify as God's rage - which is rediculous.

A lot of males want to chop of the wifes head when insulted and enraged...but we don't because to think such a thing is normal when anger takes control of the mind and heart - but to take this thought and manifest it into the real world is a no no - apparently some cleric somewhere quietly takes the men aside and says...If the bitch insults you --- chop off her damned head----I give the Okay" ....some jerk has duped some of the Muslim males into falsely believing that it's just fine to kill...that God condones it....Any rational person who is an intelligent and logical believer would realize God does not give a damn what your wife or husband do---and if one should go astray - for real or imagined - so be it! If a woman loses faith in a man or vise versa - say good bye and find one that believes in you and you in her...the rest is crazed dellusionary thinking - if the wife dishonours you - then she was never really your wife and all head chopping privledges are void.. and null.

[Michael Hardner]

Here's another example:

Man Decapitates Son

On his MySpace page, Joseph H. Hagerman III said that his Christian faith helped him deal with his mental illness.

"Schizophrenia can't hold me down," he wrote. "Thank God for Jesus."

But in the hours after Hagerman's arrest Tuesday, friends said the Joseph H. Hagerman III who confessed in television interviews that he decapitated his 5-year-old son to save him from the "anti-Christ" must have been overcome by mental illness.

So religious nuts are decapitating people... shall we blame the religion ?

[Oleg Bach]

Here's another example:

Man Decapitates Son

So religious nuts are decapitating people... shall we blame the religion ?

Those that hear voices are not religious...they are nuts. Anyone who hears the voice of God or Jesus is also crazy - logic dictates that an all mighty that generates eterinty and endless matter non- matter and space has little use for a human voice...sounds like they are talking to themselves and rationalizing their inablity to function properly sexually. There is only one reason why the western rights as compared to the eastern rights Christian sects are not allowed to take a wife is because the priest might become powerful and confident with a good woman - and not feel as helpless and vulnerable as the church expects in order to control them...so it appears that they steal the confidence and natural human pride and power from children - real cowardly but understandable in a sick way...POWER - the real definition of power is the giving and granting of POWER - as is respect - it is not fear..it is mutual co-operation and true love and care for your fellow - The Church got drunk on power and still have not sobbered up.....so a bit of wine and a victim is a craved commodity to these practicers of anti-christism.

[WIP]

Here's another example:

Man Decapitates Son

So religious nuts are decapitating people... shall we blame the religion ?

Yes! Yes! Blame the $^*damn religion! Is that so hard to understand? http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/02/12/Dad...71281234475937/

Mix one part schizophrenia with religious doctrine that the believer must trust God above his own ability to reason, and voila -- he suppresses his own misgivings and trusts that little voice in his head calling himself God, and this is what we end up with. A big shoutout goes to that OT story of Abraham demonstrating his faith in Yahweh, by following through on the order to offer up his son Isaac as a blood sacrifice. The moral of the story is simple -- if God tells you to commit an unspeakable act, you demonstrate your faith by following orders.....and maybe hoping that he sends an angel to stop you at the last second from committing murder.

A few years back, there were a couple of notable cases of mothers (Susan Smith and Andrea Yates) who were stressed out mothers with mental illness issues, and they drowned their children to protect them from Satan. We can be thankful that less "faithful" Christians sufficiently compartmentalize these teachings so that, if they ever do hear voices giving them orders, they make an appointment with a psychiatrist rather than committing an act of murder!

[WIP]

Those that hear voices are not religious...they are nuts.

Good to know! As I suspected, all of those prophets in the Bible were nuts........except for the ones who were just making up stories to bolster a claim of being able to talk to God.

[WIP]

This is not a Muslim thing..this is a male human occurance...just that the Muslim males have a support system built into the religion that sort of allows the male to give into his rage and justify as God's rage - which is rediculous.

And the support system that sanctions honour killings, female circumcision, polygamy and child brides cannot be separated away from the religion that provides justification for misogyny and instructs husbands to beat their wives if they disobey them, and stone to death any woman who brings "shame" on the family for infidelity or for losing her virginity.

In this specific case, judging from the news blurbs, we know that she got the house and the kids, and likely some generous support payments -- so right there, we certainly know that this divorce wasn't settled in front of a Sharia tribunal, since a Muslim woman who seeks to divorce her husband under Islamic law has to prove she has just cause first (the man has no similar obligation), and if granted, she leaves the marriage with nothing! She loses custody of the children, unless he voluntarily surrenders his custodial rights, and he doesn't have to support her financially. So, for a Muslim man, having to go through Western-style divorce court -- this would be seen as a personal humiliation, and that no doubt played a role in the barbaric act he carried out as revenge.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes! Yes! Blame the $^*damn religion! Is that so hard to understand? http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/02/12/Dad...71281234475937/

Mix one part schizophrenia with religious doctrine that the believer must trust God above his own ability to reason, and voila -- he suppresses his own misgivings and trusts that little voice in his head calling himself God, and this is what we end up with. A big shoutout goes to that OT story of Abraham demonstrating his faith in Yahweh, by following through on the order to offer up his son Isaac as a blood sacrifice. The moral of the story is simple -- if God tells you to commit an unspeakable act, you demonstrate your faith by following orders.....and maybe hoping that he sends an angel to stop you at the last second from committing murder.

A few years back, there were a couple of notable cases of mothers (Susan Smith and Andrea Yates) who were stressed out mothers with mental illness issues, and they drowned their children to protect them from Satan. We can be thankful that less "faithful" Christians sufficiently compartmentalize these teachings so that, if they ever do hear voices giving them orders, they make an appointment with a psychiatrist rather than committing an act of murder!

Yes, WIP, except you can substitute 'heavy metal' or 'D&D' for religion if the person is already mentally ill.

[WIP]

Yes, WIP, except you can substitute 'heavy metal' or 'D&D' for religion if the person is already mentally ill.

No you can't....at least not if you're intellectually honest and not just looking for something to divert attention.

Unlike rock music and Dungeons and Dragons, organized religion provides organizational reinforcement for its fantasy worlds. This provides extra reinforcement for someone who's delusional to rely on the voices in his head for guidance.

[Oleg Bach]

No you can't....at least not if you're intellectually honest and not just looking for something to divert attention.

Unlike rock music and Dungeons and Dragons, organized religion provides organizational reinforcement for its fantasy worlds. This provides extra reinforcement for someone who's delusional to rely on the voices in his head for guidance.

Quiet...I hear something...did you hear that?

[Michael Hardner]

No you can't....at least not if you're intellectually honest and not just looking for something to divert attention.

Unlike rock music and Dungeons and Dragons, organized religion provides organizational reinforcement for its fantasy worlds. This provides extra reinforcement for someone who's delusional to rely on the voices in his head for guidance.

Have you ever heard of the Judas Priest case ?

To me the argument is about freedom of expression, including freedom of religion. If sick people are misguided by such expressions, then that's not the fault of the music, or the religion, IMO.

[WIP]

Have you ever heard of the Judas Priest case ?

Yes, and there really wasn't much of a case, since the plaintiffs were trying to build a case around the pseudoscience of subliminal messaging. http://www.csicop.org/si/9611/judas_priest.html

To me the argument is about freedom of expression, including freedom of religion. If sick people are misguided by such expressions, then that's not the fault of the music, or the religion, IMO.

And why should freedom of religion include freedom from criticism and condemnation for promoting dangerous and harmful dogmas, and in the case of the man who murdered his son - we don't know yet what, if anything, the nondenominational church he attended played in either trying to convince him he needed help, or whether they considered his delusional thinking to be evidence of real religious experience.

But in the infamous case of Andrea Yates, the Texas mother who drowned her five children, many people who studied the case were convinced that the minister shared some of the blame for the tragedy, but charges were never brought against him for his role in pushing a delusional woman over the edge..............freedom of religion again.

Numerous media outlets alleged that Yates' minister, Michael Peter Woroniecki, bears some responsibility for the deaths, reporting that he and his wife built a framework of homicidal and suicidal delusions in Yates' impressionably ill mind through "relentless gloom and doom sermonizing."[36][37][38][39] She had come to believe that she was a "bad mother" who was spiritually and behaviorally damaging her children, and that it was better to kill herself and her offspring rather than to allow them to continue "stumbling" and go to hell[40]--a staple of her minister's teaching to parents found on his 1996 video, which the Yates both received from him and watched.[41] After viewing this video, Dr. Lucy Puryear told Houston's KTRK-13 News and Good Morning America that although Andrea would have still been mentally ill, she didn't believe Yates would have ever drowned her children had it not been for Woroniecki's religious influences.[42]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates

[Michael Hardner]

WIP

And why should freedom of religion include freedom from criticism and condemnation for promoting dangerous and harmful dogmas, and in the case of the man who murdered his son - we don't know yet what, if anything, the nondenominational church he attended played in either trying to convince him he needed help, or whether they considered his delusional thinking to be evidence of real religious experience.

Nobody is saying that you shouldn't criticize religion, but your criticism misses the mark. By and large the messages of the great 3 religion have been a positive force for the world. Of course there are fanatics and damaged people who misinterpret the message, but that's not religion's fault is it ?

[kimmy]

And the support system that sanctions honour killings, female circumcision, polygamy and child brides cannot be separated away from the religion that provides justification for misogyny and instructs husbands to beat their wives if they disobey them, and stone to death any woman who brings "shame" on the family for infidelity or for losing her virginity.

In this specific case, judging from the news blurbs, we know that she got the house and the kids, and likely some generous support payments -- so right there, we certainly know that this divorce wasn't settled in front of a Sharia tribunal, since a Muslim woman who seeks to divorce her husband under Islamic law has to prove she has just cause first (the man has no similar obligation), and if granted, she leaves the marriage with nothing! She loses custody of the children, unless he voluntarily surrenders his custodial rights, and he doesn't have to support her financially. So, for a Muslim man, having to go through Western-style divorce court -- this would be seen as a personal humiliation, and that no doubt played a role in the barbaric act he carried out as revenge.

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying...

...but it's hardly a rare thing when a divorced man slays his ex-wife. Granted, usually it involves a gunshot or dozens of stab-wounds, not a beheading. The spin is just a little different. Instead of a "humiliated man" engaging in an "honor killing", it's "a lonely, bitter man, unable to cope..." Culture and religion are usually ignored as aspects of this story. It's not a cultural thing, it's just an isolated case of one troubled man.

I mean, honestly I hate the misogyny built into Islam and I loathe the idea of Islam becoming more prominent in our country. But aside from the morbid curiosity of the beheading... what makes this different from any number of slayings of women by their ex-partners?

-k

[Shady]

Yes, WIP, except you can substitute 'heavy metal' or 'D&D' for religion if the person is already mentally ill.

Don't forget video games and music too!

[WIP]

WIP

Nobody is saying that you shouldn't criticize religion, but your criticism misses the mark. By and large the messages of the great 3 religion have been a positive force for the world. Of course there are fanatics and damaged people who misinterpret the message, but that's not religion's fault is it ?

The default claim that religion is a good thing (other than the wars, genocides, pogroms, persecutions, forced conversions, and objections to modernity) doesn't pass the smell test when an impartial analysis of history is performed. The French playwright Voltaire narrowly escaped being burned at the stake for writing a book that theorized Christendom caused the fall of the Roman Empire; but whether the new religion which Emperor Constantine picked to try to keep his empire afloat was the cause of the Fall of the Roman Empire, it nonetheless hastened the decline and made the quality of life much worse by burning books of science and medicine, closing bathhouses, and promoting bloodletting and prayer to combat plagues that made a grim life even worse during the Dark Ages. The actions of the Church that set Western civilization back a thousand years were not done by a tiny minority of extremists or fringe fanatics -- the orders came from the popes themselves.

Should Christianity get the credit for the flourishing of European culture during the Renaissance and the Age of Enlightenment? I would say no, since efforts to improve life and acquire new knowledge, were carried out after the Church was forced to grudgingly concede some ground, first to the Greek philosophers, and slowly over time to advancing scientific understanding of the world around us. Even in this day and age, when we have big problems to deal with, we have the religious of all stripes fighting against sensible abortion policies, stem cell research and euthanasia, because they insist on dragging their medieval understanding of the mind into any and every life issue debate.

Even more insidious, the heavy influence of Christian and Muslim religious leaders (most notably, the Vatican) have successfully taken overpopulation off the table as an issue for policy makers to discuss. This, at a time when population growth rates that had been slowing for two decades, are now on the rebound, and we are straining to provide the food and fresh water to feed the now more than 6.5 billion people on this planet. The human population growth is also increasing environmental degradation and causing an increase in the extinctions of mammals, amphibians, and even insects, that is unprecedented in Earth's history -- past extinctions have never been this rapid, and present trends will lead to the human race joining the extinction list in another hundred to two hundred years if nothing is done to stop this headlong rush to disaster.

That said, I have no objection to going to church for a religious experience of some form or other -- I even occasionally attend Unitarian/Universalist services, since they are apparently the only church that uses a set of shared principles, rather than shared metaphysical dogmas as their organizing principle. Many Catholics reject the Vatican's dangerous dogmas that encourage overpopulation, and they should be speaking out against the Pope and other Church hierarchy about the harm they are doing by encouraging a population explosion in the Third World, instead of sitting silently in the pews.