Israeli Ground Attack

[Ontario Loyalist]

True or false. The Hamas tunnels were for a high speed subway...

True or false. People become terrorists when they are happy, free, and content with their lives and the political status of where they live? You do know that Jews resorted to terrorism in order to force the creation of the state of Israel, so if you really are so concerned about terrorism you should be questioning the tactics of organizations like Irgun and be critical of the fact that this organization lives on as the Likud and Kadima political parties.

There is not "right side" in this situation, and until people like you cease thinking the way that you do (they exist on both sides) this problem will never be resolved...

Of course another option would be for everyone to become sincere followers of Christ...

Matthew 5:21-22

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

[Ontario Loyalist]

You may intend to be facetious but you are about the only person asking the right question; why aren't the apologists for Hamas asking if they have anything productive or constructive in mind?

Nobody here--except, perhaps, "tango"--is an "apologist" for Hamas or supports terrorism in general; people are just being a little more objective, and I think if hundreds of innocent Israel civilians were to be killed, there would be an equal amount of concern and indignation at the perpetrators. Again, you're true colours are really starting to show through, and the hypocracy is sickening.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Jerry, you said you were a Zionist and as such I expect you take a very long view towards history. How far into the future does your vision extend however? Can you not see a time when the world is in a post technological stage and Israel no longer has a technological advantage?

Its clear that Islamic cultures also take a very long view to history and I would suggest if you treat Gaza the way you are proposing today that Israel will very likely face the same treatment in the future.

What was that about living by the sword or bulldozer again?

There is no doubt that both sides have history. Nobody will dispute that point. Yet one side elects a terrorist organization to lead them. Lead them where? What can Hamas do besides promise and deliver death and destruction?

A nation is responsible for its actions isn't it? So let us look at it this way; Canada launches a few missiles at the USA. Now what do you think the USA will do? What would you do when your neighbor starts throwing bombs over the fence? In the truest sense, that is the essence of the question.

Sometimes you just don't get a lot of choices. look at the history books for a minute and you will see many occasions where the only choice was to fight. So that is what these folks are doing, fighting for what they believe in. The Jews just want to be left alone to live, the other guys just want to kill the Jews and take their lands. Now which side do you support? Terrorism of diplomacy? You choose..........

[wulf42]

Israel should have never pulled out of Gaza ,those animals can never be trusted! The only thing Islamic extremist's understand is brute force and this world will never be at peace as long as they exist...they must be destroyed and what Israel is doing is showing the world how to deal with these Vermin!

[eyeball]

Now which side do you support?

Neither. I acknowledge the disproportionality in my criticisms of the two sides and I guess the only thing I can attribute that to is the disproportionality of deaths. Speaking of which...

I asked a question about the future of Israel in a post technological world. If Israel takes the action you suggest - "Turn Gaza into rubble and then push the rubble into the sea, that is what I propose" - you know full well an event this atocious will be permanently etched into the memories of the people and cultures that surround Israel, many of which subscribe to vengence in their religous belief systems. With this in mind, what do you think will happen to Israel if it no longer has its technological advantage?

...they must be destroyed and what Israel is doing is showing the world how to deal with these Vermin!

What do you think will happen if this is the context in which future Islamic memories are framed?

Edited January 5, 2009 by eyeball

[Black Dog]

The Gazans voted for Hamas and now they get to live, or die, with the consequences.

I get the giggles here because this is exactly the same logic used by Osama bin Laden to justify the 9-11 attacks (that citizens of democracy are responsible and culpable for the actions of their leaders) and pretty close to the Hamas reasoning that states every Israeli is a target because of the nature of compulsary service in the IDF. Strange bedfellows indeed.

The world's view towards Jewry is at best ambiguous; it wants the benefits of commerce, banking and the professions that Jews, as a group, are thought to excel at, and the world is not so sure that they ant the Jews to have an independent political existence of even absolute security and safety. Many people of good will (and I am tentatively placing you in that group) want the Jews to exist but under control by either Muslims or Christians. Thus, the Jews come in for higher criticism when they need to use violence to defend their rights.

How you can simultaneously trumpet the myriad accomplishments and overall superiority of the Jewish people on one hand and gleefly wallow in the mire of victimhood on the other is beyond me.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Black Dog

[eyeball]

I get the giggles...

I'm still chuckling over this one.

[wulf42]

What do you think will happen if this is the context in which future Islamic memories are framed?

The greater part of the Islamic World wants to destroy Israel and the rest of Western Civilization for that matter...so who cares what they think?

Sooner or later they will all push Israel and then boom the Samson Option will come into effect at the rate they are going!

[eyeball]

Sooner or later they will all push Israel and then boom the Samson Option will come into effect at the rate they are going!

So with 400 nukes all going off around it wouldn't Israel effectively be acting just like a suicide bomber? Seems like a fitting end I guess. Are there any virgins in the deal?

Edited January 5, 2009 by eyeball

[Ontario Loyalist]

There is no doubt that both sides have history. Nobody will dispute that point. Yet one side elects a terrorist organization to lead them. Lead them where? What can Hamas do besides promise and deliver death and destruction?

Um Israel has been led for much of its existance by the Likud party, and what exactly are its roots...? When are people like you going to realize that nobody is right in this?

[betsy]

I get the giggles here because this is exactly the same logic used by Osama bin Laden to justify the 9-11 attacks (that citizens of democracy are responsible and culpable for the actions of their leaders) and pretty close to the Hamas reasoning that states every Israeli is a target because of the nature of compulsary service in the IDF. Strange bedfellows indeed.

For a minute there I thought you were actually onto something...Osama says occupiers of the twin towers voted in George who is the Great Satan who would destroy the (muslim) world and so it was alright to zap them; likewise, residents of Gaza voted in Hamas, who is the Great anti-semite who would destroy the civilized world and so it is alright to zap them. Well, I said you may have been onto 'something', not something useful. But it turns out you actually had nothing. I should have learned not to expect your logic to come to a logical conclusion. One group of voters voted for a way of life they support, something positive. The other group voted for a leader who would destroy a race they envy and detest, something most , I think you'd agree, would consider negative. The parallel breaks down before it makes its point.

Further, Hamas doesn't care that every Israeli is a potential soldier...every arab in Gaza is a potential suicide bomber/soldier (the ultimate in conscriptive service)...every man, woman and child...so why do you imagine they would find compulsory service offensive?

Every Israeli is a target of Hamas because he/she is a Jew. No other reason. It is pure unadulterated hatred of Jews. Period.

[Ontario Loyalist]

Every Israeli is a target of Hamas because he/she is a Jew. No other reason. It is pure unadulterated hatred of Jews. Period.

Well, DUH... but why????? If Jews and Arabs lived peacefully side-by-side in Palestine for centuries as some here have claimed, why would an organization like Hamas come about in the 1980s after the Arabs had been driven from their land, ghettoized, and living in conditions that would revolt you if you lived in them? Geez, I wonder... It's human nature for people to get pissed off at the people they feel are making life miserable for them, so yeah, it's because of hatred, but the hated ones just happen to be Jews. It seems to me that certain people don't want to hold Jews to the same standard simply because they're Jews. I just don't see how that solves anything.

[jbg]

......and I think if hundreds of innocent Israel civilians were to be killed, there would be an equal amount of concern and indignation at the perpetrators.

How many random killings should Israel have to suffer?

Again, you're true colours are really starting to show through, and the hypocracy is sickening.

Can't you spell?

1. Colors not colours; and
   
2. Hypocrisy not hypocracy
   

[Ontario Loyalist]

How many random killings should Israel have to suffer?

You just don't get it, do you? Also, if you're so concerned about Israel, feel free to remove yourself to that country.

Can't you spell?

1. Colors not colours; and
   
2. Hypocrisy not hypocracy
   

Resorting to pointing out spelling inconsencies is really a lame tactic, an act of desperation, really. In terms of "colours"--you do know that this is a CANADIAN political message board, and that most people here are from CANADA. It's bad enough that you have a stronger allegiance to a foreign country, but that you jave to come on here and be a typical American...

[JB Globe]

The greater part of the Islamic World wants to destroy Israel and the rest of Western Civilization for that matter...so who cares what they think?

FYI, something doesn't become true just because you want it to be true REALLY, REALLY, REALLY badly.

[sharkman]

FYI, something doesn't become true just because you want it to be true REALLY, REALLY, REALLY badly.

Now if only the Muslim world would realized this, then Israel could live in peace.

[JB Globe]

Now if only the Muslim world would realized this, then Israel could live in peace.

I completely disagree with this statement, because it implies that Israel deserves no criticism for the current situation.

It fits in the "Jews are angels, Muslims are devils" dichotomy used by people in Western nations with a wide variety of viewpoints (Christian Evangelicals, Neocons, "Clash of Civilization" proponents) , which of course is the other side of the coin to the dichotomy found in the Islamic world "Muslims are angels, Jews are devils"

Both are equally as ignorant, wrong, and destructive.

[M.Dancer]

Both are equally as ignorant, wrong, and destructive.

I haven't found any items showing the Israelis indiscriminately firing un guided rockets at civilian targets...or boarding busses and blowing them up. Fact is both are not equal. One is a modern civilised state and the other isn't.

[Black Dog]

For a minute there I thought you were actually onto something...Osama says occupiers of the twin towers voted in George who is the Great Satan who would destroy the (muslim) world and so it was alright to zap them; likewise, residents of Gaza voted in Hamas, who is the Great anti-semite who would destroy the civilized world and so it is alright to zap them. Well, I said you may have been onto 'something', not something useful. But it turns out you actually had nothing. I should have learned not to expect your logic to come to a logical conclusion. One group of voters voted for a way of life they support, something positive. The other group voted for a leader who would destroy a race they envy and detest, something most , I think you'd agree, would consider negative. The parallel breaks down before it makes its point.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? JBG and OBL are following the exact same principle: citizens of democracy are culpable for the actions of their leadership. Whether you think one is right and one is wrong is irrelevant. The rationale is the same.

[Wild Bill]

You just don't get it, do you? Also, if you're so concerned about Israel, feel free to remove yourself to that country.

Resorting to pointing out spelling inconsencies is really a lame tactic, an act of desperation, really. In terms of "colours"--you do know that this is a CANADIAN political message board, and that most people here are from CANADA. It's bad enough that you have a stronger allegiance to a foreign country, but that you jave to come on here and be a typical American...

Be gentle! Those poor folks have a speech impediment. They can't pronounce "zed".

[kimmy]

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? JBG and OBL are following the exact same principle: citizens of democracy are culpable for the actions of their leadership. Whether you think one is right and one is wrong is irrelevant. The rationale is the same.

While I understand the point you're making, I'm not sure it's a direct analogue.

BC_Chick has been posting news articles in the other thread from the time of the election to highlight the fact that Hamas had dropped the explicit demand for Israel's destruction from their manifesto. However, her articles also highlight the fact that "armed resistance" (as the euphemism goes) remained a prominent part of Hamas policy. Palestinians knew what they were supporting in Hamas.

I can understand the complaint that people have been punished for policies they had no say in, but I think there's potentially an argument that Palestinian voters did have a say, and chose to endorse an organization that intended to put them in harm's way.

-k

[Ontario Loyalist]

I can understand the complaint that people have been punished for policies they had no say in, but I think there's potentially an argument that Palestinian voters did have a say, and chose to endorse an organization that intended to put them in harm's way.

-k

Yeah, too bad bombs don't discriminate when it comes to who they kill, ie. who those people voted for. I think many people in Gaza are in a situation where they are prone to figure they have nothing to lose, and they'll readily buy into radical ideas. We've seen it happen before, of course--Nazi Germany, remember? Is it not sad that the then victims have become victimizers?

[bush_cheney2004]

Yeah, too bad bombs don't discriminate when it comes to who they kill, ie. who those people voted for. I think many people in Gaza are in a situation where they are prone to figure they have nothing to lose, and they'll readily buy into radical ideas. We've seen it happen before, of course--Nazi Germany, remember? Is it not sad that the then victims have become victimizers?

Yep....Chinese rockets are so much more appetizing than food and water. I wonder why 30 million starving Africans didn't think of that?

Edited January 6, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[LesterDC]

Can't you spell?

1. Colors not colours; and
   

Last time I checked, it's COLOURS.

[LesterDC]

I think many people in Gaza are in a situation where they are prone to figure they have nothing to lose, and they'll readily buy into radical ideas.

and the ground assault on Gaza will only strengthen the extremist philosophy. Radicalism always comes out whenever the country is going through serious troubles..