BC_chick Posted December 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 (edited) Rue BC Chick you know my position on this. I think you are unfairly bias for one side of the conflict. I actually try to understand the Israeli perspective even though you probably don't believe me. I just the see whole thing as a 60 year dispute, which to be honest, I see as unfair toward the Palis from the start. I think their struggle to maintain their land is something any group of people would have done, including you and me, and everything thereafter is just a continuation of a cycle of violence. Seems even Ben Gurion agreed: “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” I think you are quick to point the finger at Israel without pointing the same fingerequally at Hamas and the other terror groups. When Palestinians still had hope in the international community, including neighbouring Arab countries, they didn't resort to such heinous measures. However, just because I sort of understand their desperation, please don't confuse that with me condoning terrorism, I think Palis would be better off a campaign of civil disobedience as Ghandi did. BC they started this latest round of violence just as they have time and timeagain in the past and no Israel can not sit back and watch 300 missiles and more be launched into its nation. Well, as I said initially, there's a blockade killing many Gazans, sure it's not direct violence, but it's harmful nonetheless. You can always keep pushing back the start of the latest round, but I reiterate, it's a cycle of violence that has been going on for 60 years. One that IMO the Palis had a right to start fighting. Sorry BC I am very sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians particularly in Gaza which isa large cesspool. Yes you are, way more than many other Israel supporters. Hamas is deliberately assuring moderate Israeli politicians like Tipi Livner and Ehud Barak can notwin an election. With such moderates gone and Netanyahu back in power they can revert to the usual terrorism and claim Netanyahu is not interested in peace and that is why Israelis voted him in. I saw it the other way... after 18 months of blockade and nonsense, it's Livner that wants to show that she's tough enough for the job since she's slipping in the polls. But what you're saying makes sense too, the timing of calling an end to the truce was pretty weird. Point well taken on that. I hope Tippi kicks ass and wins the election but I doubt that will happen. I had faith in Olmert too, but I've become a bit of a cynic, now I really don't see a difference who's in charge. As I said in my post prior to this, nothing will ever improve until Israel's borders are established and Jerusalem is taken away from both sides. Fat chance of that happening though, the only two countries that could make that happen are the US and Britain. Neither of which seems keen on even making such a suggestion... hence the bloodshed will continue over the most valued real-estate the world has ever known. Edited December 29, 2008 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted December 29, 2008 Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 BBC update:Israel's war on Hamas 65 confirmed civilian deaths, only women and children. Plus unknown number of civilian men. 4 on the Israel's side. The moral figure from the theory seems to hold true. As well as our mysterious interpretations of things "moral", "reasonable", and "legitimate". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted December 29, 2008 Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 Figures you can't answer that one...apparently you'd be surprised to learn there are no settlements in Gaza. The last one there was left to the Arabs and they simply destroyed it even though it was packed with valuable farm equipment that the Israelis couldn't take with them...the greenhouses in particular. Ah you are right I cannot answer, you did for me. But you are correct. I was not aware that Isrealis has vacated the Gaza settlements in 2005. But why evacuate them? What was the purpose of them in the first place? As for the West Bank and Golan Heights, there are still settlements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) Ah you are right I cannot answer, you did for me. But you are correct. I was not aware that Isrealis has vacated the Gaza settlements in 2005. But why evacuate them? What was the purpose of them in the first place? As for the West Bank and Golan Heights, there are still settlements. Indeed there are settlements in the West Bank...some going back to the 1970s. The West Bank, however, is not under HAMAS control nor is it interested in another Infitada as their economy is actually improving under current conditions. Gaza was at the time Israeli territory won after the Six Day War. Before that it was Egyptian. Arabs in the West Bank are perhaps not as keen as you think re: removal of the older settlements as they do provide good employment for local Arabs as well as Israelis. Hard call on the newer settlements. Again it's a mixed bag. No Jews = No jobs in many cases. There are no settlements in the Golan Heights. Their value is to Syria as they are an ideal artillery platform in which to shell distant Israeli targets (of which they've seen plenty of use over the years). There is a farm (Shebaa) below the heights that apparently Lebanon has some claim to...but again...it was captured during the Six Day War in 1967. Due to its strategic location, both the farm and the Golan are unlikely to be handed over to anyone without a fight. There's a rumor that Olmert discused giving up the Golan only after signing a peace treaty with Syria...but since they just broke off the indirect talks...oh well. That wouldn't have been popular with the Israeli military, anyways. ------------------------------------------------------------- Anything you build on a large scale or with intense passion invites chaos. ---Francis Ford Coppola Edited December 30, 2008 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 65 confirmed civilian deaths, only women and children. Plus unknown number of civilian men. 4 on the Israel's side. The moral figure from the theory seems to hold true. As well as our mysterious interpretations of things "moral", "reasonable", and "legitimate". Because that's all it is...interpretations from afar...very afar. I find the "women and children" angle to be quaint indeed, as if Qassam rockets made any such distinction. It may seem unreasonable to anyone who has not experienced beyond detached interpretations. There is a price to be paid....so let them pay it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Because that's all it is...interpretations from afar...very afar. I find the "women and children" angle to be quaint indeed, as if Qassam rockets made any such distinction. There's the old Pallywood angle as well. Can't trust so-called "independant Palestinian sources" to give a true story. --------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 There's the old Pallywood angle as well. Can't trust so-called "independant Palestinian sources" to give a true story. This only reflects their chronic, self-imposed misery......Israel is not their worst enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 And to boot, the average person on the street has zero historical context when it comes to the histories of the Arab Israeli wars so they believe any hare-brained tale HAMAS cooks up as to how the situation came to be this way. " The Yom Kippur War?? Was that over fish???" ------------------------------------------------------------------ All the chapel bells were ringing, in the little village town, And the song that they were singing was for baby Jimmy Brown. ---The Browns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterDC Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 any hare-brained tale HAMAS cooks up as to how the situation came to be this way. last time I checked, a lot of people on the streets think that Arab = terrorist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 last time I checked, a lot of people on the streets think that Arab = terrorist Really? When and where did you check? ---------------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterDC Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Really? When and where did you check?---------------------------------- It's a Daisy. well, it is more of an exaggeration but I think that it is fair to say that the amount of Israel sympathizers surpasses the amount of Palestine sympathizers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 well, it is more of an exaggeration but I think that it is fair to say that the amount of Israel sympathizers surpasses the amount of Palestine sympathizers.. Goodness. I wonder why? Could it be one is a society with values much like ours while the other is a gang of terrorists? You fill in the blanks re: which is which accordingly. ---------------------------------------- There better be a naked cheerleader under your bed. ---Hank Hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) well, it is more of an exaggeration but I think that it is fair to say that the amount of Israel sympathizers surpasses the amount of Palestine sympathizers.. Well thank Allah for that......the Palestinians need a PR makeover. Edited December 30, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterDC Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Goodness. I wonder why? Could it be one is a society with values much like ours while the other is a gang of terrorists? You fill in the blanks re: which is which accordingly.---------------------------------------- There better be a naked cheerleader under your bed. ---Hank Hill Yes, that belief is why most people agree with the Israelis.. and that is why nobody would really listen to "any hare-brained tale HAMAS cooks up as to how the situation came to be this way." anyhow.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted December 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Could it be one is a society with values much like ours while the other is a gang of terrorists? Our society was built on the idea of a divine right to a piece of land?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Our society was built on the idea of a divine right to a piece of land?!? Yes...except it was The Throne's right instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Our society was built on the idea of a divine right to a piece of land?!? It sure as f**k wasn't built on beheadings and genital mutilation. But that's all fine now that your relativist views actually seem to count in today's crazy revisionist World. Don't like what Wikipedia says? Change it. ------------------------------------------------- Yeah, well I'm gonna build my own lunar space lander! With blackjack aaaaannd hookers! Actually, forget the space lander, and the blackjack. Ahhhh screw the whole thing! ---Bender: Futurama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted December 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 It sure as f**k wasn't built on beheadings and genital mutilation. But that's all fine now that your relativist views actually seem to count in today's crazy revisionist World. Don't like what Wikipedia says? Change it. Did I say it was? Nice diversion btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Because that's all it is...interpretations from afar...very afar. I find the "women and children" angle to be quaint indeed, as if Qassam rockets made any such distinction. It may seem unreasonable to anyone who has not experienced beyond detached interpretations. There is a price to be paid....so let them pay it. However, there's such thing as objective information. How many women or children have died from Quassam rockets before Israel's attack? Please post the numbers. Note I'm not in any way condoning the use of indiscriminating weapons by either side, only trying to grasp the meaning of our notions of "legitimate" and "proportionate". E.g. would police be legitimate and proportionate, if it blasted apartment building with ,00 residents, few of whom happen to belong to a vicious gang? Why (such a difference of interpretations)? Note that I'm only and exclusively interested in our very own moral interpretations of these events (I do not believe that any more can be said about the causes and prospects of settling this conflict in any foreseable future), because unlike recent free Georgia episode, all we hear from the great leaders of the free democratic and moral world here is dead and utmost silence. Certainly looks like some lives are more precious than others. The lesson that won't be lost on either side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 However, there's such thing as objective information. How many women or children have died from Quassam rockets before Israel's attack? Please post the numbers. Note I'm not in any way condoning the use of indiscriminating weapons by either side, only trying to grasp the meaning of our notions of "legitimate" and "proportionate". E.g. would police be legitimate and proportionate, if it blasted apartment building with ,00 residents, few of whom happen to belong to a vicious gang? Why (such a difference of interpretations)? Your pretense is false..."legitimate and proportionate" are protocols that don't exist in the present context. Municipal police departments have a legal liability that does not exist in a war. Still, the Philadelphia police department destroyed an entire city block in 1985 with C-4 and Tovex while trying to evict radical tenants from a single home. I'm sure you know the Waco story as well. Note that I'm only and exclusively interested in our very own moral interpretations of these events (I do not believe that any more can be said about the causes and prospects of settling this conflict in any foreseable future), because unlike recent free Georgia episode, all we hear from the great leaders of the free democratic and moral world here is dead and utmost silence. Certainly looks like some lives are more precious than others. The lesson that won't be lost on either side. That's the whole idea....to make sure that the lesson won't be lost. But I think it is important to recognize that anyone's detached moral compass is irrelevant except for their own personal demons. The only bleeding heart that ever impressed me was Rachel Corrie, an American activist who stood in the path of an IDF Caterpillar D9R.....now that's what I call getting involved for a cause. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) Did I say it was? Nice diversion btw. Cultural relativism means you don't always agree with a culture's practices but you do agree with their right to be different. So I could ask you what's your opinion on women's rights under Islamic/Middle Eastern culture...You can state you don't approve, but, you're not going to go out of your way to disapprove it in practice since it is a part of another equally valid culture as your own. Example only. So no...you don't have to say it was. ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...bang, bang, shoot, shoot. ---The Beatles Edited December 30, 2008 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuzadd Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Did I say it was? Nice diversion btw. hey bc chick: was the reference in the post you replied to "genital mutilation" regarding the genital mutilation that the jewish people chose to practice on their young men. Or is just some genitial mutilation 'bad' and other genital mutilation 'good'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuzadd Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Right. How would you feel if you neighbors were lobbing "crude rockets" into your neighborhood. Is suspect you would be demanding action even if the majority of them missed their mark or did not cause many deaths. A more accurate analogy would be how would you feel, if your neighbour imprisoned you in your neighbourhood, cut off your food/water and medical supplies for an unknown length of time, and you made a choice that your very survival depended on. Wouldn't you do what you could no matter how crude to fight the oppressors? To fight the occupiers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuzadd Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 oh and one more thing: breaching of the ceasefire 1: Israel did not exhaust the diplomatic processes before embarking yesterday on another dreadful campaign of killing and ruin. The Qassams that rained down on the communities near Gaza turned intolerable, even though they did not sow death. But the response to them needs to be fundamentally different: diplomatic efforts to restore the cease-fire - the same one that was initially breached, one should remember, by Israel when it unnecessarily bombed a tunnel - and then, if those efforts fail, a measured, gradual military response. breaching of the ceasefire 2: Nov 5th An Al-Qassam Brigades leader, Mazin Sa’da, who is also a police officer, was killed and four civilians were injured including a woman as Israeli forces invaded Juhr Ad-Dik and clashed with Palestinian fighters, according to Muawiya Hassanein, director of ambulance and emergency service in the Palestinian health ministry. breaching of the ceasefire 3: UN official says Israel responsible for breaking truce with Gaza they called a 48 hour truce, but then broke it better to play the perpetual victim, the old bait and switch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderateamericain Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 A more accurate analogy would be how would you feel, if your neighbour imprisoned you in your neighbourhood, cut off your food/water and medical supplies for an unknown length of time, and you made a choice that your very survival depended on.Wouldn't you do what you could no matter how crude to fight the oppressors? To fight the occupiers? A better question is why did your Neighbors feel the need to cut you off? Also Myata what is your definition of a Proportionate and moral war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.9a49e1b2f22a6d34a345152c50044aa9.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.