Auto sector bailout

[ironstone]

I'm curious what the members on this site think of the idea of bailing out GM,Ford and Chrysler.The coalition forces want immediate help for the auto sector,meaning cold,hard,CASH!

I wonder if it's wise to hand over money to them before seeing what Obama does first.Even he says they must come up with a credible plan first and foremost.Remember too that these are American based companies.Did you know that it's not umcommon for assembly line workers to earn over $100,000 a year,plus a host of other generous benefits?Do you think chapter 11 is the best option?This way,they could perhaps bring the unions a bit more down to earth.

Have any of you ever owned V6 GM cars with the premature head gasket problem?Ever driven an Alero or Cavalier?

Tell us where you stand and please indicate if you are on the left or right,lol.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm curious what the members on this site think of the idea of bailing out GM,Ford and Chrysler.The coalition forces want immediate help for the auto sector,meaning cold,hard,CASH!

"Cold cash" as opposed to huge tax breaks and incentives to lure the foreign manufacturers to Canada in the first place?

I wonder if it's wise to hand over money to them before seeing what Obama does first.Even he says they must come up with a credible plan first and foremost.Remember too that these are American based companies.

Obama isn't the US president.....yet. If Canada wants to wait for leadership, it will be Bush and the current US Congress for now.

Did you know that it's not umcommon for assembly line workers to earn over $100,000 a year,plus a host of other generous benefits?

The CAW has fewer and fewer such income outcomes.

Do you think chapter 11 is the best option?This way,they could perhaps bring the unions a bit more down to earth.

Chapter 11? In Canada? How does that work....same tax code as the USA?

Have any of you ever owned V6 GM cars with the premature head gasket problem?

No, but I did replace a prematurely blown head gasket on a Honda Civic.

Tell us where you stand and please indicate if you are on the left or right,lol.

The Americans giveth...and the Americans taketh away...does that answer your question?

[eyeball]

I'm a lefty in a rural western location and I say screw the auto sector if they simpy want a bailout to help maintain the status quo. Instead of a bailout I think the auto sector should be nationalized to the extent that it can be worked into a policy that rationalizes and combines CO2 emission reduction with transportation infrastructure for the future i.e. automated roads and intelligent hybrid or electric cars that are mostly driven by computers.

High-speed rail should also be built to convey people and perhaps their cars too, over long distances. Like roll-on roll-off ferry's except on rails.

Edited December 6, 2008 by eyeball

[ironstone]

Yes I am aware there are differences in Canadian and American tax laws.However,does it not stand to reason that whatever happens south of the border will greatly affect the auto sector in Canada,for better or worse?Should we be asking ourselves why foreign all foreign auto companies with a presence in North America seem to be struggling to the same extent as our big three?On the Fox channel,I remember a right wing commentator(Sean Hannity)blaming government intervention for many of the problems.CAFE fuel economy standards for one.Does anyone know if these standards were only meant for the big three,or to foreign cars sold in the U.S. as well?

The bailout question is a tough one.Part of me says let them sink or swim but there could be a huge ripple effect if they do sink.

If taxpayers do end up footing the bill,I would hope there would be big changes and strict belt tightening by the recipients.

As for tax breaks for foreign car companies to set up shop here,I'm sure those guys get very good wages too.They seem to be more efficiently run too.What is corporate welfare?Jack Layton wants money for the auto sector,so does that qualify as corporate welfare?He is opposed to tax breaks for corporations,but in the end won't that help create jobs?On another subject,I think pay packages for CEO's are beyond obscene.Why do so many have to be so greedy these days?

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes I am aware there are differences in Canadian and American tax laws.However,does it not stand to reason that whatever happens south of the border will greatly affect the auto sector in Canada,for better or worse?

Correct...it matters not a damn what Canada does. The US market drives production and sales in Norte America.

Should we be asking ourselves why foreign all foreign auto companies with a presence in North America seem to be struggling to the same extent as our big three?

No...automobile sales tend to plunge during a recession.

On the Fox channel,I remember a right wing commentator(Sean Hannity)blaming government intervention for many of the problems.CAFE fuel economy standards for one.Does anyone know if these standards were only meant for the big three,or to foreign cars sold in the U.S. as well?

All US fleet vehicle sales...you can see how light trucks were treated differently here:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/CARS/rules/CAFE/overview.htm

Profit margins are much better on light truck sales. Small cars were CAFE loss leaders.

The bailout question is a tough one.Part of me says let them sink or swim but there could be a huge ripple effect if they do sink.

If taxpayers do end up footing the bill,I would hope there would be big changes and strict belt tightening by the recipients.

Manufacturing in Ontario has milked this tired old goose for all it's worth...time to move on.

As for tax breaks for foreign car companies to set up shop here,I'm sure those guys get very good wages too.They seem to be more efficiently run too.What is corporate welfare?Jack Layton wants money for the auto sector,so does that qualify as corporate welfare?He is opposed to tax breaks for corporations,but in the end won't that help create jobs?

I think Jack Layton is a communista. He can ride a horse.

On another subject,I think pay packages for CEO's are beyond obscene.Why do so many have to be so greedy these days?

Because they can. Why do wage earners seek satisfaction by trimming CEO pay even as the ship sinks?

[August1991]

Correct...it matters not a damn what Canada does. The US market drives production and sales in Norte America.

When it comes to bail outs, I'm not so certain that you can say that.

The Bush Administration appears willing to fork over $15 billion. The Big 3 are asking for $7 billion from our government. With the Canadian dollar down 25%, they are saving a chunk on labour costs. You do the math.

[bush_cheney2004]

When it comes to bail outs, I'm not so certain that you can say that.

As you well know, I am quite certain (right or wrong).

The Bush Administration appears willing to fork over $15 billion. The Big 3 are asking for $7 billion from our government. With the Canadian dollar down 25%, they are saving a chunk on labour costs. You do the math.

Such savings afforded advantages in the past...but no longer because of the legacy costs stateside. That coupled with vehicle sales trends and market share in the USA makes Canada an afterthought. The US Congress is balking and has only indicated reluctant cooperation by shifting appropriations intended for gas mileage technologies to present operating costs.

Congressman Frank went so far as to indirectly assault any Canadian cost advantage by suggesting relief from an Obama-esque universal health care program.

Bush also wants the money back, a la Chrysler bailout.

Edited December 6, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[whowhere]

Last Week George Bush was on record of Saying he did not want throw good money after Bad in Bailing out the Auto Sector. I think he is on to something for once. If Bush has any spine he will veto the 15 Billion dollar package put out for Congress to help the Auto Sector.

The Auto Sector Got 15 Billion from the US but they want 6.8 Billion From Canada. Absolute Nonsense. The United States has GDP of 12 Trillion, Canada maybe 1.5 Trillion. The US has 300 million in population, Canada 30 Million. What we have is a factor of 10 here. At most 1.5 Billion in Auto Sector support.

Do the numbers. Face it the world Knows Americans are stupid (when it comes to understanding economics), lazy, so full of shite they can go feck themselves. The sooner Canada Secures our Border against the Americans and begins Serious Trade Negotions with Europe and Other Countries the Sooner Canada will find its way to "sovereignty/Independence" from the US parasite.

The fact is the game is up for the United States. The world knows their game. In this time of economic confusion do not throw good money after Bad.

Honda and Toyota are manufacturing Heavily in Ontario. If there is any money it should be put their way to have them expand their business to take advantage of those Losers at GM, Ford, And Chrysler.

[blueblood]

I am stupider for having read that.

[ToadBrother]

Honda and Toyota are manufacturing Heavily in Ontario. If there is any money it should be put their way to have them expand their business to take advantage of those Losers at GM, Ford, And Chrysler.

I tend to agree with this to some extent. As much as I'm sure many dedicated Big Three supporters are in horror of the idea, I think we and the US should be encouraging Toyota to buy GM. Let Chrysler sink. I think Ford can probably make it. But there's just not enough room in a shrinking market for the big Asian manufacturers and for the Big Three.

[bush_cheney2004]

Last Week George Bush was on record of Saying he did not want throw good money after Bad in Bailing out the Auto Sector. I think he is on to something for once. If Bush has any spine he will veto the 15 Billion dollar package put out for Congress to help the Auto Sector.

Dream on...since when did President Bush ever do anything you want?

The Auto Sector Got 15 Billion from the US but they want 6.8 Billion From Canada. Absolute Nonsense. The United States has GDP of 12 Trillion, Canada maybe 1.5 Trillion. The US has 300 million in population, Canada 30 Million. What we have is a factor of 10 here. At most 1.5 Billion in Auto Sector support.

The single state of California has more GDP than all of Canada too....maybe they should kick in a few billion.

Do the numbers. Face it the world Knows Americans are stupid (when it comes to understanding economics), lazy, so full of shite they can go feck themselves. The sooner Canada Secures our Border against the Americans and begins Serious Trade Negotions with Europe and Other Countries the Sooner Canada will find its way to "sovereignty/Independence" from the US parasite.

Of course...Americans are so stupid that you are debating whether or not to give them more money! Name one great Canadian car make still in production. How is American transplant Packard-Studebaker doing these days in Canada?

The fact is the game is up for the United States. The world knows their game. In this time of economic confusion do not throw good money after Bad.

The world has copied their game.....stupid like a fox.

Honda and Toyota are manufacturing Heavily in Ontario. If there is any money it should be put their way to have them expand their business to take advantage of those Losers at GM, Ford, And Chrysler.

Sure....worship Japan instead of America....I like that. Where does "Canada" fit in?

Edited December 6, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Oleg Bach]

I like the part when George was diligently doing what was left of his duty and reading from the telepromter....to para pharse 'We are going to give this money to the car guys and they will pay it all back to the tax payers" So who is going to inforce this payback? This is more of the same stuff...as one administration exists - they go though the castle treasury and toss as much booty over the wall to their friends who will later assist them in their retirement. After all the retiring administration like an unfaithful wife must be kept living in the style she is accustomed too - Just wish that George would pardon poor Conrad Black - who was cruxified for the sins of a ten thousand executives.

[whowhere]

I tend to agree with this to some extent. As much as I'm sure many dedicated Big Three supporters are in horror of the idea, I think we and the US should be encouraging Toyota to buy GM. Let Chrysler sink. I think Ford can probably make it. But there's just not enough room in a shrinking market for the big Asian manufacturers and for the Big Three.

It's not rocket science to figure out what the game is be played out. GM, Chrysler have been abusing the American Consumer for Years with over priced Cars. This is mostly because of the Pensions, Wages, and Health Costs of these "Royal" Auto Workers. In their greed they have driven the companies to bankruptcy now they want you the Consumer to pay again through your taxes which will have to be paid out from Future Taxes. They can all FAK OFF. It's time these workers come down to earth with their wage and pension expectations. If anyone knows how the Auto Sector works is you have auto parts suppliers who pay about $10 dollars an hour through temp agencies with no benefits and zero chance of becoming full time employess. This is the auto sectors way of Business. This wage is below the poverty line. Now the GM, Chrysler and Ford worker get $40 dollars an hour plus pension and benefits.

Seem Right, NO? This industry can fak off.

To all of Canada's politicians (provincial and Federal) the only solution is to setup Food Banks and create infrastruce work to keep people earning money until the economy is sorted out because of you stupid ignorant dumbasses.

Rewarding the stupid with Good Money is reckless and solves nothing.

GM has a market cap of 2.5 Billion? Why would anyone loan them money when the company can be bought by the Taxpayers and then taxpayers can pump money into the company until it is turned around by the taxpayers. After that, the company's shares can be resold.

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=gm

[Wilber]

Small point, Japanese sales in the US are way down as well. The difference is they aren't nearly bankrupt, so what makes you think they will be in a rush to expand their production in Canada?

I still don't know how this is going to work. Supposedly there is a years supply of inventory sitting in lots. Are governments going to buy them all and send them to the crusher so manufacturers can keep churning out new ones. Scary times.

[Oleg Bach]

Give everybody a free car...once they wear out we can melt them down and make a super fast train that goes a million miles per hour - that will rush our I T workers off to the office to create nothing...worked for 20 years...maybe we can just re-set the illusion?

[bush_cheney2004]

Small point, Japanese sales in the US are way down as well. The difference is they aren't nearly bankrupt, so what makes you think they will be in a rush to expand their production in Canada?

Correctomundo.....without a sales turnaround, it matters not. Only a fool would expand the current model in Canada or the US. Maybe Mexico?

I still don't know how this is going to work. Supposedly there is a years supply of inventory sitting in lots. Are governments going to buy them all and send them to the crusher so manufacturers can keep churning out new ones. Scary times.

Not for the old...we've saw this movie in the 1970's. That's how we got Mustang II.

[whowhere]

Small point, Japanese sales in the US are way down as well. The difference is they aren't nearly bankrupt, so what makes you think they will be in a rush to expand their production in Canada?

I still don't know how this is going to work. Supposedly there is a years supply of inventory sitting in lots. Are governments going to buy them all and send them to the crusher so manufacturers can keep churning out new ones. Scary times.

I think some people are getting it. Consumers do not want to buy American Gas Guzzling shitboxes. These cars can all go to the crusher for all they are worth. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are making fuel efficient Cars that people want to buy. This 6.8 billion should be put in front of them to expand their production in Canada and that will sustain the auto Industry in Ontario.

Put good money after good. The fact is Canada for alot of years has been relying on Commodites to sustain it self. Politicians have to recognize Canada is a Naturally wealth Country with resources that can be sold to anyone in the world.

Canada has to open up serious trade relations with Europe and tell the US to FAK OFF.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think some people are getting it. Consumers do not want to buy American Gas Guzzling shitboxes. These cars can all go to the crusher for all they are worth. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are making fuel efficient Cars that people want to buy. This 6.8 billion should be put in front of them to expand their production in Canada and that will sustain the auto Industry in Ontario.

You mean it is no longer acceptable to build gas guzzling light trucks in Ontario for the US market now that the party is over? What a great gig while it lasted, huh?

Put good money after good. The fact is Canada for alot of years has been relying on Commodites to sustain it self. Politicians have to recognize Canada is a Naturally wealth Country with resources that can be sold to anyone in the world.

C'mon...you still have that #1 banking system (but church mice capital), which is why the foreigners were welcomed.

Canada has to open up serious trade relations with Europe and tell the US to FAK OFF.

Not going to happen....how is the softwood lumber business these days? Floating logs to France?

[Smallc]

The Auto Sector Got 15 Billion from the US but they want 6.8 Billion From Canada.

They want $34B from the US. We have 20% of the production capacity, so they want 20% of what they're asking for from the US.

[whowhere]

You mean it is no longer acceptable to build gas guzzling light trucks in Ontario for the US market now that the party is over? What a great gig while it lasted, huh?

C'mon...you still have that #1 banking system (but church mice capital), which is why the foreigners were welcomed.

Not going to happen....how is the softwood lumber business these days? Floating logs to France?

It's false economics. If there was any economic value realized by these auto companies it would certainly be wiped out by giving the 6.8 billion to them. Where is this money going to come from?? Why should other sectors taxes go to subzidize these losers. Why should Honda and Toyota be penalized for running a proper business and building products that makes sense to the market.

It time politicians reward good businesses with good money and shit companies with the boot to the bankruptcy court where their assets can be bought for ten cents on the dollar and sold to Toyota and Honda so they can pick up the production slack left behind by no GM, Chrysler, and ford.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's false economics. If there was any economic value realized by these auto companies it would certainly be wiped out by giving the 6.8 billion to them. Where is this money going to come from?? Why should other sectors taxes go to subzidize these losers. Why should Honda and Toyota be penalized for running a proper business and building products that makes sense to the market.

It going to come from Canadian taxpayers...see "Bombardier"

It time politicians reward good businesses with good money and shit companies with the boot to the bankruptcy court where their assets can be bought for ten cents on the dollar and sold to Toyota and Honda so they can pick up the production slack left behind by no GM, Chrysler, and ford.

Why are politicians rewarding any companies? Has nothing to do with good or bad business models.

PS: your thread has been COMBINED!

[whowhere]

It going to come from Canadian taxpayers...see "Bombardier"

Why are politicians rewarding any companies? Has nothing to do with good or bad business models.

PS: your thread has been COMBINED!

The Fact is Bombadier does the Engineering, Research and Designing in Canada, therefore deserves taxpayer support. The Auto Makers use Canada for production only and to exploit a lower dollar versus the US. These automakers deserve nothing From Canada.

Yes, Mapleleafweb obviously supports a welfare check to the Auto Industry and wanted my Topic Headline to be muted.

NO! NO! NO! To 6.8 Billion to Auto Sector. The Money should go to Honda, Toyota and the Prudent

[bush_cheney2004]

The Fact is Bombadier does the Engineering, Research and Designing in Canada, therefore deserves taxpayer support. The Auto Makers use Canada for production only and to exploit a lower dollar versus the US. These automakers deserve nothing From Canada.

Errr...OK..so why would you give tax dollars to Honda, Toyota, or Nissan?

My own US based company has a software sweatshop in Canada (Montreal).....lots of "Engineering, Research, and Design".

[fellowtraveller]

Obama can please a lot of people by bringing policies that reward Americans for buying vehicles that are made in America, and I expect that is exactly what we'll see early next year.

It may piss off a lot of people in Canada, but so what?

Canada has to open up serious trade relations with Europe and tell the US to FAK OFF.

Ummm, the #1 reason the EU was created was to protect their own industries and their own jobs, at any cost. What other reason could there possibly be for building Citroens or Renaults?

They have zero interest in opening their markets to our products, and know that they cannot compete with China or the US in supplying our markets. All the baloney about this serves the PR and optics for both Canadian govt and the EU, but that is as far as it will go.

[whowhere]

Errr...OK..so why would you give tax dollars to Honda, Toyota, or Nissan?

My own US based company has a software sweatshop in Canada (Montreal).....lots of "Engineering, Research, and Design".

I support a bailout on One Condition. The US congress and Canada collectively buy up all the shares of GM, Chrysler, Ford and put those share in a public Trust overseen by a board who scrutinize and evalutate the company's actions.

Cost??

GM's market value - 7 Billion US

http://www.cnbc.com/id/25392542

Chrysler market value - 7 Billion US

http://www.247wallst.com/2007/04/what_is_chrysle.html

Ford market value - 5 Billion

http://finance.sympatico.msn.ca/Investing/...mentid=11070250

Total Cost to Buy GM, Chrysler, and Ford 19 Billion. Because They wanted 34 Billion from the US and 6 Billion from Canada that leaves 21 Billion to pump into the Auto Companies to make them viable.

So what makes sense, hand them over money or take the companies on behalf of taxpayers and then pump money into them??