Could this all be part of Harper's plan?

[jdobbin]

Under the circumstances, I will not engage this debate. But Trudeau and Chretien typically stood in front of an imprresive array of Canadian flags. For this signing, there were few Canadian flags in sight, and none behind Duceppe. Then I saw an array of provincial flags - has the federal Trudeau Liberal Party adopted the Clark "community of communities'?

Dion's presentation is amateur hour compared to Trudeau but there were flags in the room and they were Canadian. Anything else said is just a lie.

Anyway Dobbin, this is all moot. Polls and Ontario MPs know that this coalition idea is dead in the water.

The Liberal Party needs to change the way it operates. It must become once again a party viable in the west and the east.

There are no quick fixes.

I think Harper is going to an election regardless of what happens and before the Liberals have a leader or the absence of a confidence vote.

[blueblood]

Dion's presentation is amateur hour compared to Trudeau but there were flags in the room and they were Canadian. Anything else said is just a lie.

I think Harper is going to an election regardless of what happens and before the Liberals have a leader or the absence of a confidence vote.

I seen the shot, there were 3 Canadian flags intertwined with the provincial flags and there was a mural of the fathers of confederation. The problem arises with the one shot of the 3 of them signing a document when there were "conveniently" no flags in the shot. In all fairness, they did zoon out and the flags were off to the side. Technically your both right.

Dion had 1 or two flags in his taping, but the tape was so bad you could hardly make out Dion himself, but strangely could make out Hot Air.

[August1991]

Dion's presentation is amateur hour compared to Trudeau but there were flags in the room and they were Canadian. Anything else said is just a lie.

Dobbin, you still don't get it.

The federal Liberal party needs time to rethink itself.

[jdobbin]

Dobbin, you still don't get it.

The federal Liberal party needs time to rethink itself.

August, you don't get it. Harper doesn't want a Liberal party to rethink itself. He wants it dead now.

Bankrupt it, humiliate it, break it up and make sure it doesn't ever come back again. That is goal. His only goal.

It is why the Liberals said no on the last confidence measure. Harper thought he had six months to cripple the Liberals with confidence measures and financial pain and then he was going to pull the plug himself before anyone started to think about how he was managing the economy.

I still think the Liberals will have a hard time backing down. They won't be able to do it with Dion though.

[August1991]

August, you don't get it. Harper doesn't want a Liberal party to rethink itself. He wants it dead now.

Bankrupt it, humiliate it, break it up and make sure it doesn't ever come back again. That is goal. His only goal.

For this country, would that be a bad thing?

Scott Reid wanted to kill Harper.

Maybe Canada needs a different approach to politics.

Sorry Dobbin. Between Reid/Kinsella/Harper, I choose Harper. Harper never wanted to kill anyone.

---

BTW, I was astonished to hear an aged Marc Lalonde support the coalition on the radio in English yesterday. Lalonde did it intelligently and I enjoyed hearing the opinion of an intelligent federalist. (Denis Coderre is a hack.)

The federal Liberal party is a sad imitation of its former self.

Edited December 5, 2008 by August1991

[Riverwind]

BTW, I was astonished to hear an aged Marc Lalonde support the coalition on the radio in English yesterday.

Any Quebec federalist would be silly to reject a coalition that would shower favours on Quebec. The problem with the coalition is the interests of the rest of the country would be sacrificed in order to pander to Quebec. That is why there is such a divergence in the poll numbers from English and French Canada.

Frankly, I am quite annoyed that Quebequers don't seem to understand why the rest of the country reacts so viscerally to a party who's stated objective is to break up the country. The BQ has a right to be in parliament and make their case. I don't think anyone would be bothered by issue by issue deals with the BQ as required. What upsets people is the idea that the BQ would have any sort of veto over national policy decisions - vetos that would likely be exercised behind closed doors where no one would know it happened.

[Bryan]

Harper doesn't want a Liberal party to rethink itself. He wants it dead now.

Bankrupt it, humiliate it, break it up and make sure it doesn't ever come back again. That is goal. His only goal.

When I first saw you write these things on this forum, I had not given the idea any thought. But the more I see you say it, the more you have convinced me.

Convinced me that whenever people start to think that Harper may have "gone too far", or appears to be hurting his own personal image, that they are missing the point. Harper doesn't care how popular he is. He absolutely does NOT have the lust for power that he's so often accused of, in fact he couldn't care less if he lost the PM or even the leader of the CPC, as long as it furthered the long term goal of eradicating the LPC.

Not only have you convinced me that all of the above is true, you've even convinced me that I too need to look at the big picture that way. Time to stop worrying about whether the CPC gets elected, or what the optics of any given scenario are, and just concentrate on making sure maximum damage is inflicted on the LPC. That is now my new outlook on politics. No longer am I about "how does this help Conservatives?" (or even "how does this help me?"), now my primary concern is "how does this hurt Liberals?".

Thanks for making things so clear to me.

[craiger]

When I first saw you write these things on this forum, I had not given the idea any thought. But the more I see you say it, the more you have convinced me.

Convinced me that whenever people start to think that Harper may have "gone too far", or appears to be hurting his own personal image, that they are missing the point. Harper doesn't care how popular he is. He absolutely does NOT have the lust for power that he's so often accused of, in fact he couldn't care less if he lost the PM or even the leader of the CPC, as long as it furthered the long term goal of eradicating the LPC.

Not only have you convinced me that all of the above is true, you've even convinced me that I too need to look at the big picture that way. Time to stop worrying about whether the CPC gets elected, or what the optics of any given scenario are, and just concentrate on making sure maximum damage is inflicted on the LPC. That is now my new outlook on politics. No longer am I about "how does this help Conservatives?" (or even "how does this help me?"), now my primary concern is "how does this hurt Liberals?".

Thanks for making things so clear to me.

hey don't forget to crush the greens while your at it would you, you know that pathetic party looking to save the evironment.

[craiger]

When I first saw you write these things on this forum, I had not given the idea any thought. But the more I see you say it, the more you have convinced me.

Convinced me that whenever people start to think that Harper may have "gone too far", or appears to be hurting his own personal image, that they are missing the point. Harper doesn't care how popular he is. He absolutely does NOT have the lust for power that he's so often accused of, in fact he couldn't care less if he lost the PM or even the leader of the CPC, as long as it furthered the long term goal of eradicating the LPC.

Not only have you convinced me that all of the above is true, you've even convinced me that I too need to look at the big picture that way. Time to stop worrying about whether the CPC gets elected, or what the optics of any given scenario are, and just concentrate on making sure maximum damage is inflicted on the LPC. That is now my new outlook on politics. No longer am I about "how does this help Conservatives?" (or even "how does this help me?"), now my primary concern is "how does this hurt Liberals?".

Thanks for making things so clear to me.

hey don't forget to crush the greens while your at it would you, you know that pathetic party looking to save the evironment.

[jdobbin]

For this country, would that be a bad thing?

Scott Reid wanted to kill Harper.

Maybe Canada needs a different approach to politics.

Sorry Dobbin. Between Reid/Kinsella/Harper, I choose Harper. Harper never wanted to kill anyone.

That is utter non-sense. It is what he and Flanagan have been writing for years. It is obvious that you want the same thing.

Be careful what you wish for seems to be the advice offered here.

Harper's politics as war doesn't stop at mere defeat. It ends when you are dead. It is why if the coalition breaks up, I see Harper going to the polls as fast as he can whether confidence has been voted on or not. He does not want a new Liberal leader in place.

[scribblet]

Absolute nonsense and spin, boy, no wonder I don't with bother with this forum as much as I used to.

[jdobbin]

Absolute nonsense and spin, boy, no wonder I don't with bother with this forum as much as I used to.

There's that condescending tone we have come to expect from the right wing.

[speaker]

I think it's quite possible that it's part of the Conservatives plan. If it brings us closer to the American style two party/one party state it brings us closer to a nation that has no real opposition and I believe this would be a bonus for the supporters of the conservative party.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I think people give Harper far to much credit. He just isn't that smart.

[Oleg Bach]

I think people give Harper far to much credit. He just isn't that smart.

A natural warrior may instinctively provoke (call forth) his enemy...it's not about smarts it's about primative actions that are very effective - Once you provoke a man - he moves forward - usually in a blind rage - once he is moving - you control him...and it looks like little Stevie Harper was like a Stalingad...welcomed the enemey in by faining weakness then swallowed them whole...ha ha ha ha.

[Topaz]

That is utter non-sense. It is what he and Flanagan have been writing for years. It is obvious that you want the same thing.

Be careful what you wish for seems to be the advice offered here.

Harper's politics as war doesn't stop at mere defeat. It ends when you are dead. It is why if the coalition breaks up, I see Harper going to the polls as fast as he can whether confidence has been voted on or not. He does not want a new Liberal leader in place.

I agree with you but Harper made a mistake when he tried to take away the rights of the Fed. workers and I don't think they will support now if they did in the past. I also, think Harper will have put everything the opposition are asking for into the budget to avoid a election right now, IF he thinks he may not get a majority right now. IF the voters who didn't vote in the last election but do in the next one against Harper because of the way he is taking advantage of the rules for the confidence vote. If Paul Martin had done the same thing as Harper can you hear the Cons scream foul!!!

[August1991]

Harper's politics as war doesn't stop at mere defeat. It ends when you are dead. It is why if the coalition breaks up, I see Harper going to the polls as fast as he can whether confidence has been voted on or not. He does not want a new Liberal leader in place.

I heard Martha Hall Finlay this morning state the same as you Dobbin: Harper wants to annihilate teh Liberal Party.

Do you realize how self-centred she and you sound?

The Liberal Party has been out of power for all of, what, two years or so? When the Liberals have been out of power for, let's say, eight or ten years as the Democrats were in the US, then maybe we can talk about annihilation. Until then, Harper is just being a standard issue politician.

It is galling that you Liberals are such sharks that you simply cannot tolerate being away from the limos, the Challengers and the top floor offices for more than a year or two.

Harper does not want to annhilate the Liberal Party but he does want to make Canada a viable two party democracy.

-----

In any case, it appears that the Liberal Party is going to self-annihilate. Between Bob Rae running around the country (at taxpayer expense) trying to sign up Liberal members and Ignatieff speaking out of both sides of his mouth to support/stand away from this crazy coalition project, the simple fact that most Liberals don't want to see the Liberal Party shacking up with the NDP and the Bloc.

The Liberal Party needs to change.

If we have an election in ealy 2009, and Harper wins a majority, it will be a blessing for the Liberals.

[Smallc]

I heard Martha Hall Finlay this morning state the same as you Dobbin: Harper wants to annihilate the Liberal Party.

He does want to. Everyone in the news media knows it. Every Liberal knows it. Its not enough for Harper to beat the Liberals. He needs to destroy them.

[madmax]

He does want to. Everyone in the news media knows it. Every Liberal knows it. Its not enough for Harper to beat the Liberals. He needs to destroy them.

He wanted to destroy the LPC without getting any blood on his hands, and without a fight. That is how he got himself into the mess he is in. Luckily for him, he is still a bully picking on nerd who can't fight back. But the Bully doesn't look so hot. The anger on the street is going past party lines. Once again, people who woke up and paid attention to Canadian Politics, hate politicians, more today then just a week back.

No this is not part of Harpers plan. If a Prime Minister had a plan to close down parliment, it is a bad plan. This is damage control, and damage control is never a pre medidated plan. It is a reactionary measure.

For the people that are looking at all the polls, saying, look at us we are "UP" or "DOWN", I would suggest that the CPC know how much higher they are in the polls and knew so, before the Prime Minister went begging to the GG.

For everyone raving about these numbers, clearly they weren't strong enough to convince the Prime Minister to face the opposition on Monday.

This Dogs breakfast is nobodys plan. It was a waste of parliment, and of good government....

[August1991]

He does want to. Everyone in the news media knows it. Every Liberal knows it. Its not enough for Harper to beat the Liberals. He needs to destroy them.

Stephen Harper doesn't have to destry the Liberals; they are doing a very good job of it themselves.

I'm increasingly coming around to the idea that Harper took a calculated risk when he added the proposals to cut public-funding of parties in the economic update last week. He knew that the Bloc would go ballistic and then Layton would see his chance. Dion foolishly went along with this crazy scheme because his ego and vanity add up to more than his brain.

As a result, the Liberal Party has now damaged its only barely remaining basic principle: national unity.

Manley (and others) are now blaming Dion for this fiasco but in fact the GG asked all Liberal MPs to sign a statement in support of the coalition. The Liberal caucus is responsible for this error.

Harper set this trap in motion but the Liberals foolishly went for it.

-----

As I have posted elsewhere, when Liberal MPs get a chance to talk to their constituents (outside of Toronto and Montreal), they are going to get an earful. These poll numbers are devastating for teh coalition project.

For the people that are looking at all the polls, saying, look at us we are "UP" or "DOWN", I would suggest that the CPC know how much higher they are in the polls and knew so, before the Prime Minister went begging to the GG.

For everyone raving about these numbers, clearly they weren't strong enough to convince the Prime Minister to face the opposition on Monday.

Madmax, these poll numbers are significant because they provide a good idea of what ordinary English Canadians (not the chattering classes centred in Toronto) think of this scheme. They clearly don't like it.

----

As to your point about avoiding Monday's confidence vote, public opinion wasn't voting on Monday. It was going to be the House of Commons. I have a suspicion though that Harper would have won a confidence vote. There are enough Liberal MPs even now who realize that this project is bad for the Liberal Party's reputation, such as it is now.

Edited December 6, 2008 by August1991

[theRev47]

Harper is trying to provoke another election. He wants to polarize the country into either the Liberal Camp or the Conservative Camp. He believes that in a showdown the Conservatives will win a majority and then they can govern and pass policies and budgets that suits their ideology instead of this cooperative stuff which does not represent their philosophy.

He may succeed. The Coalition, assuming they can govern, will have to call an election probably no later than the fall. That's when the country will be polarized into the Conservative Camp or the Liberal Camp.

[betsy]

Does anyone think it's possible that this is all Harper's plan? I mean there was talk of the Liberals and NDP joining forces during the campaign, so this isn't that big of a surprise that they are talking about it now. Does anyone think that it's possible that Harper intentionally pissed off the Opp. so that they would try to form a coalition government (which I believe makes the Opp. look bad to Canadians).

I personally believe that an overwhelming majority of canadians are opposed to this coalition government. That's why I ask the question. I think this will make Harper more likley to get a majority gov't down the road and if so could this have been his plan to get it all along?

I suspected that this could have been planned but I changed my mind when I saw Harper the couple of days before he met with the Governor General. He looked like he did not get any sleep at all.

If it's truly a gamble on his part....boy, he's made of steel.

[madmax]

Madmax, these poll numbers are significant because they provide a good idea of what ordinary English Canadians (not the chattering classes centred in Toronto) think of this scheme. They clearly don't like it.

----

As to your point about avoiding Monday's confidence vote, public opinion wasn't voting on Monday. It was going to be the House of Commons. I have a suspicion though that Harper would have won a confidence vote. There are enough Liberal MPs even now who realize that this project is bad for the Liberal Party's reputation, such as it is now.

If I agreed with your logic, it would probably kill the thread.... hmm,.... well, just this part....

Next topic