Canadian Forces in sad shape!

[wulf42]

Well you know what the sad truth of it is? If it weren't for our American friends next door the Russians would have steamed rolled over us long ago........the way things our now a Russian tug boat fleet could probably take us in a fight, Our military could never defend Canada for very long against almost any other country and that is sad. Canadians have a "who cares" attitude for many years and this is from years of whinny sissy liberals complaining about human rights to the extreme....they can't even yell at you in basic training now for petes sake!! it might make somebody cry or get offended.....lol, you should see how the Russians train their military ....one Spetnaz unit could whip us ...we wouldn't have a prayer against Russian troops in conventional combat and i blame this squarely on the sissy Liberals and their stupid ideas and now the world could careless what our opinion is on anything except maybe Hockey! Damn why couldn't Harper get a majority!

[guyser]

Indeed; the past three or so decades seem to have seen a steady shift away from the idea of "I am here to serve" towards the notion of "I am here to be served"; rights and entitlement trump duty and sacrifice. Couple this with the ongoing dismissal of the concept of an actually militarised military (imagine!) in favour of the feel-good idealism of the gentle peacekeeper, and is it any wonder there's less and less support for the Armed Forces? Oh, wait... that's right, the "armed" part was dropped already. Sorry, less and less support for our forces.

Cant argue with you here, but have to ask, who's fault is that?

The people in this country dont sign up, then the people controlling the purse strings should wake up to that and find a way that makes signing up worth it.

While armyguy et al on this board signed up , he and the rest did so for reasons they liked. And thats fine, but those same reasons may not be enough for the next guy.

One only has to look at what we pay these men and women (pitifully), how we house them (pitifully) and how we treat the injuries both mental and physical and come to the conclusion that it isnt worth it.....for some.

I live in TO. I recall the story about how bad Downsview Base was for housing, and recall seeing pictures and how much they were paying to live in a dump.

I recall reading numerous stories about Walter Reed Hospital in Washington, and how bad the care was for the men there.

I recall reading how the military, once done with the men and women, and they have de-listed/retired , made them jump through hoops for what they should be guarenteed. Plenty of it is US based, and thats in a nation that idolizes their men and women.

The treatment by the military, on the men and women who have signed up is reason enough for any young person to take a pass.

If we are serious, then lets increase the wages, significantly increase them , give them better living conditions, more time off between assignments.

In business, if one is assigned a posting outside of his normal country, it is not unheard of to get plenty of time off in lieu of the posting. An electrician friend of mine went to Dubai, got ten months employ, and flown home twice, with summer months off.

We put guys in Afghanistan for a year or two years, and they effectively have no time off. Sure they can play games in the barrack on a Sunday, (or whatever day is off day) but they are still working. If this countries forces campaigned saying "Give us ten months, we will give you two months off at home every summer, we have doubled the pay to boot" then I think we would have better results.

I know nothing about our military, so I have not responded here prior, but I am aware of the shoddy treatment from and to the military from the military and our govt's.

If my lemonade looks like turds in a bowl, can I blame anyone else for my lack of business at my lemonade stand?

[Donaill]

Thats true. Many people forget that our peace keepers were actually armed in places like the Golan Heights, Rwanda, Cyprus and elsewhere. Peace does not always come easy and in many cases comes at the cost of someone elses blood. I don't condone war but sometimes it is a necessary thing. War will always be around as long as there is greed, prejudice and racism. As I have asked some people, if your neighbor was being threatened, or harmed in some way would you try to help in some way or turn a blind eye? Helping other countries is part of being a good neighbour in this ever shrinking world.

[Donaill]

Well you know what the sad truth of it is? If it weren't for our American friends next door the Russians would have steamed rolled over us long ago........the way things our now a Russian tug boat fleet could probably take us in a fight, Our military could never defend Canada for very long against almost any other country and that is sad. Canadians have a "who cares" attitude for many years and this is from years of whinny sissy liberals complaining about human rights to the extreme....they can't even yell at you in basic training now for petes sake!! it might make somebody cry or get offended.....lol, you should see how the Russians train their military ....one Spetnaz unit could whip us ...we wouldn't have a prayer against Russian troops in conventional combat and i blame this squarely on the sissy Liberals and their stupid ideas and now the world could careless what our opinion is on anything except maybe Hockey! Damn why couldn't Harper get a majority!

You don't need to beat a dog to train it not to shite on the floor. So you do not need to

scream and shout at a recruit to train one. If you want to just blame liberal minded people for the decline in our military than I would be led to believe that you are too young to remember that concervative minded people have done nothing in a great way to support the military either. This new found ultra-concervatism that has taken hold of the Canadian west is not the concervatism I grew up with.

The money in the Canadian forces is not bad money. A fully trained electronics technician, Corporal or Leading Seaman makes over 50,000 a year. That is far better than any civilian company. Housing may be an issue but than again it was the decisions of past goverments and the Canadian voters. Housing costs money. The Canadian Forces is the highest educated military in the world and the second highest paid. Those that join only for money may not stay long. Those that join because it is what they believe in will be there for good times and bad.

[Mr.Canada]

The CF has become the laughing stock of the world. The Polish Forces are much more advanced than the CF and that is just sad. No wonder no one listens to us on the Int'l stage, why should they when we've allowed our forces to become a non factor. Like it or not the world respects armed power and military might, the US wouldn't be a superpower were it not fort their strong military.

It started going downhill after PM Def'nbaker disallowed nuclear missile silos in North Bay and his defense minister resigned. After that Trudeau and 50 years of Liberal PM's did everything in their power to dismantle the CF.

Now everyone blames PM Harper? Yeah he did it in 2.5 years in power...riiiiggghhttt

A mandatory 3 year military term would be a great thing and it would instill some national pride.

[M.Dancer]

A mandatory 3 year military term would be a great thing and it would instill some national pride.

Shame no one in the military, government or the public at large want such a stupid plan.

[kengs333]

A mandatory 3 year military term would be a great thing and it would instill some national pride.

You seem to be missing the fact that Poland is a "nation" in the true sense of the word: common heritage, common language, common race. This is NOT what Canada is becoming, and I think many Canadians--although they won't admit it publically--is that they don't want to serve a country that has become so ideologically and culturally balkanized... What exactly does Canada stand for nowadays? Gay rights? Abortion? Postcolonialism? Radical Feminism? Moral relativism? I for one would prefer not to risk my life to up hold such questionable "values"...

[Smallc]

You seem to be missing the fact that Poland is a "nation" in the true sense of the word: common heritage, common language, common race. This is NOT what Canada is becoming, and I think many Canadians--although they won't admit it publically--is that they don't want to serve a country that has become so ideologically and culturally balkanized... What exactly does Canada stand for nowadays? Gay rights? Abortion? Postcolonialism? Radical Feminism? Moral relativism? I for one would prefer not to risk my life to up hold such questionable "values"...

Your twisted view of Canada doesn't reflect mine. I love this country, I love what it stands for, and I would serve if needed. That said, there are other ways to serve your country other than just military service. I will serve my country by working hard in the safety industry.

[kengs333]

Your twisted view of Canada doesn't reflect mine. I love this country, I love what it stands for, and I would serve if needed. That said, there are other ways to serve your country other than just military service. I will serve my country by working hard in the safety industry.

Exactly how is it "twisted"? Yeah, I would serve "if needed," too--but there's now way that it would be on the condition of "my country right or wrong". Would you serve Canada if it became a Communist country? probably not. Neither would I.

You guys are all supposedly conservatives, but the values that you regard as "Canadian" are pretty liberal if you ask me...

edit to add:

We live in a country that awarded its "greatest" honour to someone who performs abortions... so wake the bloody hell up!

Edited November 19, 2008 by kengs333

[Donaill]

Canada was never a unicultural nation with one set of common values. Whether t it was the heavily Gaelic influenced East Coast, the Ukarainian influenced prairies, The French or ASians that settled here. Everone brough with them something to add to this country. There is no way that you can convince me that the Anglo-Saxon system of values reflected those of the Irish and Scots Gaels or Welsh that came here. That is where we settled in communities that reflected those values. Kitchener, founded by Germans, Lunenburg, Nova Scotia - Germans, Clare - Acadians, Vancouver - mostly Scots. Even small f Fenianism of Thomas Darcy M'Gee was added to the Canadian identity.

So when you say that you don't liek what Canada is becoming, I see it being as it always was. A place that values could be added to. The key is to not infinge on the freedoms we have already gained.

[M.Dancer]

So when you say that you don't liek what Canada is becoming, I see it being as it always was. A place that values could be added to. The key is to not infinge on the freedoms we have already gained.

Well put

[Smallc]

Exactly how is it "twisted"? Yeah, I would serve "if needed," too--but there's now way that it would be on the condition of "my country right or wrong". Would you serve Canada if it became a Communist country? probably not. Neither would I.

You guys are all supposedly conservatives, but the values that you regard as "Canadian" are pretty liberal if you ask me...

edit to add:

We live in a country that awarded its "greatest" honour to someone who performs abortions... so wake the bloody hell up!

I'm not a Conservative. I never pretended to be. I am a centrist and more often than not a Liberal.

[kengs333]

I'm not a Conservative. I never pretended to be. I am a centrist and more often than not a Liberal.

Still, start listing what's so "twisted" about my expectations of Canada...

[kengs333]

Canada was never a unicultural nation with one set of common values. Whether t it was the heavily Gaelic influenced East Coast, the Ukarainian influenced prairies, The French or ASians that settled here. Everone brough with them something to add to this country.

Actually up until about the 1890s it consisted of two distinct nations: the French and English...

There is no way that you can convince me that the Anglo-Saxon system of values reflected those of the Irish and Scots Gaels or Welsh that came here.

Yeah it did, actually...

That is where we settled in communities that reflected those values. Kitchener, founded by Germans, Lunenburg, Nova Scotia - Germans, Clare - Acadians, Vancouver - mostly Scots. Even small f Fenianism of Thomas Darcy M'Gee was added to the Canadian identity.

The vast majority were still either French or English.

So when you say that you don't liek what Canada is becoming, I see it being as it always was. A place that values could be added to. The key is to not infinge on the freedoms we have already gained.

Then you have no clue what Canada really used to be like. Instead, you're just happy to apply your modern sensibilities to a falsely idealized notion of what Canada used to be in your opinion. I guess that's what we should expect, though, with only one year of history manditory in highschool in most provinces...

[capricorn]

Historically, Canada has always done more with less when it comes to the military. That is a testament to the training of our men and women in uniform and all the support personell. Ask any American ship commander what he thinks of Canada. If he has been in the scope of a Canadian sub during an exercise than he will speak with alot of respect.

Canadians have often been the first in when it comes to keeping people from killing one another. Canadians often play down our roles in WW1and WW2. More the pitty because they were brave and succeeded at many tasks. They became feared by Germans, in both wars. They were so respected by the Boers in S.A. that they erected a monument to the Canadians that died there. The MacKenzie - Papineau proved themselves in the Spanish war preceeding WW2.

signed

a VERY proud Canadian.

What you say is very true. Here's how Canada's contributions were portrayed by a reporter with the UK's Daily Telegraph.

UNTIL the deaths last week of four Canadian soldiers accidentally killed by a US warplane in Afghanistan, probably almost no one outside their home country had been aware that Canadian troops were deployed in the region. And as always, Canada will now bury its dead, just as the rest of the world as always will forget its sacrifice, just as it always forgets nearly everything Canada ever does.

It seems that Canada's historic mission is to come to the selfless aid both of its friends and of complete strangers, and then, once the crisis is over, to be well and truly ignored. Canada is the perpetual wallflower that stands on the edge of the hall, waiting for someone to come and ask her for a dance. A fire breaks out, she risks life and limb to rescue her fellow dance-goers, and suffers serious injuries. But when the hall is repaired and the dancing resumes, there is Canada, the wallflower still, while those she once helped glamorously cavort across the floor, blithely neglecting her yet again.

That is the price which Canada pays for sharing the North American Continent with the US, and for being a selfless friend of Britain in two global conflicts. For much of the 20th century, Canada was torn in two different directions: it seemed to be a part of the old world, yet had an address in the new one, and that divided identity ensured that it never fully got the gratitude it deserved.

Yet its purely voluntary contribution to the cause of freedom in two world wars was perhaps the greatest of any democracy. Almost 10 per cent of Canada's entire population of seven million people served in the armed forces during the First World War, and nearly 60,000 died. The great Allied victories of 1918 were spearheaded by Canadian troops, perhaps the most capable soldiers in the entire British order of battle.

Canada was repaid for its enormous sacrifice by downright neglect, its unique contribution to victory being absorbed into the popular memory as somehow or other the work of the "British". The Second World War provided a re-run. The Canadian navy began the war with a half dozen vessels, and ended up policing nearly half of the Atlantic against U-boat attack. More than 120 Canadian warships participated in the Normandy landings, during which 15,000 Canadian soldiers went ashore on D-Day alone. Canada finished the war with the third largest navy and the fourth largest air force in the world. The world thanked Canada with the same sublime indifference as it had the previous time. Canadian participation in the war was acknowledged in film only if it was necessary to give an American actor a part in a campaign which the US had clearly not participated - a touching scrupulousness which, of course, Hollywood has since abandoned, as it has any notion of a separate Canadian identity.

---

So who today in the US knows about the stoic and selfless friendship its northern neighbour has given it in Afghanistan? Rather like Cyrano de Bergerac, Canada repeatedly does honourable things for honourable motives, but instead of being thanked for it, it remains something of a figure of fun. It is the Canadian way, for which Canadians should be proud, yet such honour comes at a high cost.

This weekend four shrouds, red with blood and maple leaf, head homewards; and four more grieving Canadian families know that cost all too tragically well.

http://www.uni.ca/country_forget.html

It's heartwarming that our country and our military received that kind of praise and recognition in the foreign press. Sadly, it seems many Canadians would rather forget that we did more than our share in the quest for world peace and freedom. Worst of all, they feel no pride.

Signed,

Another very proud Canadian

[Smallc]

Still, start listing what's so "twisted" about my expectations of Canada...

Well here's the thing. I love this country. I love almost everything about it. I love the tolerance, the common sense and reason, the values that the vast majority of the people who live here hold.

I love what my country and its people have done throughout history to help so many around the world. I love how we continue to help to this day.

When you look at this country, you see something that has become a shadow of what it once was. When I look at Canada, I see a strong and proud country that represents so much of what I believe in. When I look at Canada, I see my home, a home that I love.

From my eyes, your view is completely twisted and it couldn't be more wrong.

[Sir Bandelot]

Oh Canada, our home and native land...

How's the rest go again?

While I appreciate your misty-eyed patriotism, the reality is that Canada has done some good, and some bad things. Just like any country we are in a struggle to steer our course and define our national identity. That is the struggle of life and as the situation changes, Canada must change too. While I am proud in some ways for what Canada is relative to other countries, I try not to put it on a pedestal. We have some black marks in our history too, some of which we have not atoned for. So lets not over romanticize it.

[Smallc]

Oh Canada, our home and native land...

How's the rest go again?

While I appreciate your misty-eyed patriotism, the reality is that Canada has done some good, and some bad things. Just like any country we are in a struggle to steer our course and define our national identity. That is the struggle of life and as the situation changes, Canada must change too. While I am proud in some ways for what Canada is relative to other countries, I try not to put it on a pedestal. We have some black marks in our history too, some of which we have not atoned for. So lets not over romanticize it.

While I appreciate that you can find a cloud in any silver lining, I would rather be a misty eyed patriot. As I said, I love this place. Its not perfect, and I will criticize where I think appropriate, but it won't make me any less of a misty eyed patriot.

Oh, and change is the exact thing that the person I was responding to didn't want, so it would be a good bet that I'm in favour of at least consideration of change from time to time. Well, expect when it comes to our underlying governing system.

[kengs333]

Well here's the thing. I love this country. I love almost everything about it. I love the tolerance, the common sense and reason, the values that the vast majority of the people who live here hold.

I love what my country and its people have done throughout history to help so many around the world. I love how we continue to help to this day.

When you look at this country, you see something that has become a shadow of what it once was. When I look at Canada, I see a strong and proud country that represents so much of what I believe in. When I look at Canada, I see my home, a home that I love.

From my eyes, your view is completely twisted and it couldn't be more wrong.

You see, you still won't even list specifically what's so "twisted" about my "view". All you can do is wax on about Canada using vague, cliched language...

Canada is a "tolerant" nation because it was founded on certain principles--Christianity, the British political and legal system...--that are systematically being undone; if you want Canada to remain a "tolerant" country, then certainly you must be concerned about its balkanization, ethnically, culturally, and politically. History shows us many examples of how balkanized regions are inherently unstable; why would you want that to happen here?

[kengs333]

While I appreciate that you can find a cloud in any silver lining, I would rather be a misty eyed patriot. As I said, I love this place. Its not perfect, and I will criticize where I think appropriate, but it won't make me any less of a misty eyed patriot.

Oh, and change is the exact thing that the person I was responding to didn't want, so it would be a good bet that I'm in favour of at least consideration of change from time to time. Well, expect when it comes to our underlying governing system.

Change is inevitable; when there is a natural, stable evolution--that's one thing. But that's not quite what's happening here--or for that matter, during a few other periods in Canada's history. The arrival of large numbers of eastern European immigrants c. 1890-1914 caused significant problems that haven't fully been resolved. For one thing, they were instrumental in allowing Communism to take firm root in this country...

[Donaill]

You see, you still won't even list specifically what's so "twisted" about my "view". All you can do is wax on about Canada using vague, cliched language...

Canada is a "tolerant" nation because it was founded on certain principles--Christianity, the British political and legal system...--that are systematically being undone; if you want Canada to remain a "tolerant" country, then certainly you must be concerned about its balkanization, ethnically, culturally, and politically. History shows us many examples of how balkanized regions are inherently unstable; why would you want that to happen here?

The British system was anything but tolerant. Having outlawed many things Celtic, such as language. Forced Anglification of many cultures. What made Canada tolerant was not a foreign system but born out of necessity. It has taken us over a century to become who we are. We changed because people realise, in part, that those they once hated or in the least distrusted could be likeable and trusting people.

[Army Guy]

Some more news regarding our military.

Rented Helo's start working in Afgan.

Rented helos.

Canadian cyclone makes test flight.

cyclone

And new tracked APC maybe in the works

Cv90

Some good news, for all of us.

[Topaz]

I think the question is for Canadians is what is going to be the purpose for our military. Since 9/11, it seems we've gone from "peacekeeping" missions to joining up with the US military and went to "seek and destroy" mode. Myself I rather see our politicans use their mouths more for peace than our military use their guns. Is that reality? I guess it depends on the politicans and how good they are in talking. I think we should build the miltary up to at least, protect ourselves, but I can't see spending trillions of dollars to do it.

[Mr.Canada]

I think the question is for Canadians is what is going to be the purpose for our military. Since 9/11, it seems we've gone from "peacekeeping" missions to joining up with the US military and went to "seek and destroy" mode. Myself I rather see our politicans use their mouths more for peace than our military use their guns. Is that reality? I guess it depends on the politicans and how good they are in talking. I think we should build the miltary up to at least, protect ourselves, but I can't see spending trillions of dollars to do it.

If the Liberals hadn't been tearing down our military and cutting the defense budget for 50 years and replaced aging equipment gradually we wouldn't be in these dire straits we are currently in.

Spin it any way you want. The Liberal party, Canada's so called Natural Governing Party, has been in power more often than not and are directly responsible for the decay of our forces.

How can Harper be to blame? He's been in power for 2.5 years. Not only that but the Liberals have been in power for 53 of the last 70 years...so lets fix the problem and learn from this and not allow this to happen again.

[Oleg Bach]

We reportedly are peace keepers and makers - you can not generate peace and respect unless you are strong. I remember the liberal hippies of old who preached destruction of our military - then the bikers rode over the hill and rode away with their pound of Mexican pot - the liberal long hairs showed no resistance to this robbery - all they had to do was say NO.. but they complied to the evil force that is crimminality - our nation is still full of these types of cowards.