The Avro Arrow

[Avro Arrow]

This is to remember the Canadian made and designed fighter-interceptor. The Avro Arrow was a revolutionary jet fighter designed in Canada. Its projected capabilities were greater even than our current fleet of CF-18's. The project was canceled by the then prime minster John Diefenbaker. This was all brough about by the american president telling our prime minister that jets were obsolete and that missiles were going to replace all fighters. A few years after the Arrow was canceled the american missiles were proven ineffective and we then bough a number of american fighters ( I think like 68 for as much money as would have been spent on 100 + arrows.) The conservatives blame the liberals for the state the military is in, however throughout Canadian history the conservatives have screwed us. The cancellation of the Arrow lost us what could have been vast fortunes resulting in super power status, the selling of our Chinooks and plunging us into dept after the liberals brought us up from under the surface. I don't support the liberals but if I had to choose between the two, I would choose the the liberals. REBUILD THE ARROW PROGRAM.!!

[noahbody]

The conservatives blame the liberals for the state the military is in, however throughout Canadian history the conservatives have screwed us

.

Military cuts, of course, have long been top on the Liberals’ hit list when it comes to finding money for, as McCallum put it “new priorities.” The military was “burned out during years of Liberal cutbacks,” as the party’s own Senator Colin Kenny once put it. Canada’s budget for national defence was lacerated by 23% between ’93 and ’98 as Liberals closed bases, cut staff and cancelled equipment upgrades.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/f...gn-pledges.aspx

Well, the above is why Conservatives and a Liberal Senator blame the Liberals for the current state of the military. Please elaborate on "throughout Canadian History" and explain how it has affected the status quo.

The cancellation of the Arrow lost us what could have been vast fortunes resulting in super power status,

I'm sure the Soviet Union would have been shaking in their Russian boots. Canada bringing a knife to a gun fight.

REBUILD THE ARROW PROGRAM.!!

With our defense budget we have to be cost-effective. Secondly, spending billions to bring back dated technology would be one of the dumbest things in history. Please don't ever run for office.

[Alta4ever]

This is to remember the Canadian made and designed fighter-interceptor. The Avro Arrow was a revolutionary jet fighter designed in Canada. Its projected capabilities were greater even than our current fleet of CF-18's. The project was canceled by the then prime minster John Diefenbaker. This was all brough about by the american president telling our prime minister that jets were obsolete and that missiles were going to replace all fighters. A few years after the Arrow was canceled the american missiles were proven ineffective and we then bough a number of american fighters ( I think like 68 for as much money as would have been spent on 100 + arrows.) The conservatives blame the liberals for the state the military is in, however throughout Canadian history the conservatives have screwed us. The cancellation of the Arrow lost us what could have been vast fortunes resulting in super power status, the selling of our Chinooks and plunging us into dept after the liberals brought us up from under the surface. I don't support the liberals but if I had to choose between the two, I would choose the the liberals. REBUILD THE ARROW PROGRAM.!!

Where to start? I am a huge fan of Aircraft, Avation and the history that goes along with it. But rebuilting an aircraft that is 30 years out of date? You've got to be kidding me. If you want to see a replica go to the Wetaskiwin Museum they have one life sized. The cost of develop the aircraft was prohibative the Canadian tax payer never could have afforded the total cost of the project. While there may or may not have been customers for the aircraft is speculative, but for you blame the conservatives for this is very short sighted. The sate of our military is not the doing of one party or one government it is the result of many many years of cut funding and neglect, to pin in on one party or government is foolish.

Projected capabilities are nothing, because they are nothing but pure speculation. It was well ahead of its time, but it would have bankrupted the nation for us to take it from prototype to production, Dief may or may not have had other options, we will not know for years to come or if ever. To have a truely rational response you need to have a look at the politics of the time, the administration of the project and the CEO of AVRO to fully understand the tragic situtuation and why it happened the way it did. Stop living in the past and move on, history is to learn from not re-live .

[Keepitsimple]

My Dad worked for Canadair in Montreal (now Bombardier) and they made some parts for the Arrow.....but even with that small contribution, I remember how excited he was about the plane. The airport in Barbados has one of the out-of-service Concordes on display. It's amazing how similar the overall design is to that of the Arrow. It probably shouldn't be that surprising as most of the designers and engineers either went to NASA or onto the joint British/French Concorde program. Although the cancellation of the Arrow was a tragedy, the real loss was the annihilation of Canada's aeronautical infrastructure......a world class workforce disbanded overnight.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....The cancellation of the Arrow lost us what could have been vast fortunes resulting in super power status, the selling of our Chinooks and plunging us into dept after the liberals brought us up from under the surface. I don't support the liberals but if I had to choose between the two, I would choose the the liberals. REBUILD THE ARROW PROGRAM.!!

Let me get this straight.....Canada can't / won't even build medium lift rotary winged aircraft (e.g "Chinooks") or heavy lift cargo aircraft, but it is going to produce advanced air superiority and strike fighters? It wasn't possible then...and it isn't possible now.

[madmax]

It wasn't possible then...and it isn't possible now.

It was possible then......

[M.Dancer]

This is to remember the Canadian made and designed fighter-interceptor.

While all interceptor are fighter aircraft, not all interceptors are fighters...

It was an inteceptor, not a fighter.

The Avro Arrow was a revolutionary jet fighter designed in Canada.

It wasn't a fighter.

Its projected capabilities were greater even than our current fleet of CF-18's.

No, not by a long shot. It didn't have range, it didn't have the dohfighting ability but it could go very fast along a straight line.

The project was canceled by the then prime minster John Diefenbaker.

True

This was all brough about by the american president telling our prime minister that jets were obsolete and that missiles were going to replace all fighters.

Nope. Although Missiles did replace something....the bomber formations that the Arrow was designed to shoot down.

A few years after the Arrow was canceled the american missiles were proven ineffective and we then bough a number of american fighters ( I think like 68 for as much money as would have been spent on 100 + arrows.)

No. The Arrow would have been extremely expensive, especially since other fghters would still have to be purchased, given the the Arrow would have been a single role craft.

The conservatives blame the liberals for the state the military is in, however throughout Canadian history the conservatives have screwed us. The cancellation of the Arrow lost us what could have been vast fortunes resulting in super power status,

Glad I didn't have a coffee

I don't support the liberals but if I had to choose between the two, I would choose the the liberals. REBUILD THE ARROW PROGRAM.!!

Yeah I could see the Liberals being stupid enough to push ahead a project that would suck up military dollars for no foreseable benefit.

[Argus]

This is to remember the Canadian made and designed fighter-interceptor. The Avro Arrow was a revolutionary jet fighter designed in Canada. Its projected capabilities were greater even than our current fleet of CF-18's. The project was canceled by the then prime minster John Diefenbaker. This was all brough about by the american president telling our prime minister that jets were obsolete and that missiles were going to replace all fighters. A few years after the Arrow was canceled the american missiles were proven ineffective and we then bough a number of american fighters ( I think like 68 for as much money as would have been spent on 100 + arrows.) The conservatives blame the liberals for the state the military is in, however throughout Canadian history the conservatives have screwed us. The cancellation of the Arrow lost us what could have been vast fortunes resulting in super power status, the selling of our Chinooks and plunging us into dept after the liberals brought us up from under the surface. I don't support the liberals but if I had to choose between the two, I would choose the the liberals. REBUILD THE ARROW PROGRAM.!!

Always nice to get a visit from the tinfoil cap people. The only thing you left out was that this was a result of an international conspiracy of some sort which probably involved the Illuminati or Jews or something.

[charter.rights]

It was possible then......

And 10 years ahead of anything in the US.

[kengs333]

Let me get this straight.....Canada can't / won't even build medium lift rotary winged aircraft (e.g "Chinooks") or heavy lift cargo aircraft, but it is going to produce advanced air superiority and strike fighters? It wasn't possible then...and it isn't possible now.

Actually, the reason that the program was cancelled was because it was a better interceptor (not "strike fighter") than anything the Americans had. It was actually quite possible then, but things have changed considerably since then and probably couldn't be done even if the Americans let us.

[wulf42]

The loss of the Arrow program was a shame, the sole purpose of this aircraft was to intercept the Russian Bear bombers(TU-95 and TU-95M) as they came over the North. Even by todays standards the CF-105 had some amazing abilities but you can hardly compare it to a CF-18... the Avionics alone in the 18 are leading edge technology, it was good for what it was designed for but it could never be used as multi-task weapon.It is only too bad that one wasn't preserved in a museum.

Edited November 10, 2008 by wulf42

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, the reason that the program was cancelled was because it was a better interceptor (not "strike fighter") than anything the Americans had. It was actually quite possible then, but things have changed considerably since then and probably couldn't be done even if the Americans let us.

The current proposition is for the here and now...not 50 years ago. We don't build such interceptors any more. The Arrow was not better than anything the Americans had because it was never deployed (see F101 and F-102). And it certainly wouldn't happen today....multinational joint development of a strike fighter is happening (F-35). Reality trumps the fantasy that is the long ago Arrow poster child for national prowess.

If it was possible then.....why didn't it happen? The Americans actually produced many interceptors while Canada struggled to produce a handful....even with Yankee help (B-47 engine test bed, missile, fire control, and temporary engine). We even threw in air tunnel time at Langely AFB.

If the Avro Arrow didn't happen because "the Americans wouldn't let us", that is the most pitiful excuse of all.

[Alta4ever]

The current proposition is for the here and now...not 50 years ago. We don't build such interceptors any more. The Arrow was not better than anything the Americans had because it was never deployed (see F101 and F-102). And it certainly wouldn't happen today....multinational joint development of a strike fighter is happening (F-35). Reality trumps the fantasy that is the long ago Arrow poster child for national prowess.

If it was possible then.....why didn't it happen? The Americans actually produced many interceptors while Canada struggled to produce a handful....even with Yankee help (B-47 engine test bed, missile, fire control, and temporary engine). We even threw in air tunnel time at Langely AFB.

If the Avro Arrow didn't happen because "the Americans wouldn't let us", that is the most pitiful excuse of all.

But that would mean the unenlightened masses couldn't blame the Americans because you know everything is always their fault.

[kimmy]

Monsieur Dancer has beaten me to pointing out most of the technical inaccuracies in the original post.

The favorable comparison of the Arrow to our current Hornets is laughable. The Hornet is a far superior aircraft in every respect except for top speed and maximum altitude. Top speed and maximum altitude are not the measure of a combat aircraft.

There are a lot of very very fast aircraft that have been eliminated from the world's militaries over the past 20-30 years because being fast just wasn't enough to make up for their other shortcomings. The Arrow would have been among them, had it not been cancelled.

And 10 years ahead of anything in the US.

This is simply not accurate. The North American F108 Rapier was in development concurrently with the Arrow, and its performance would have considerably exceeded the Arrow's. The Rapier was cancelled at the same time for the same reason: with the arrival of the ICBM, there was no longer any need to be able to intercept bombers.

-k

[Wilber]

My Dad worked for Canadair in Montreal (now Bombardier) and they made some parts for the Arrow.....but even with that small contribution, I remember how excited he was about the plane. The airport in Barbados has one of the out-of-service Concordes on display. It's amazing how similar the overall design is to that of the Arrow. It probably shouldn't be that surprising as most of the designers and engineers either went to NASA or onto the joint British/French Concorde program. Although the cancellation of the Arrow was a tragedy, the real loss was the annihilation of Canada's aeronautical infrastructure......a world class workforce disbanded overnight.

Trouble is, they were trying to build the wrong aircraft. ICBM's had shifted the priority from interceptors to air superiority and strike fighters. It was the wrong product for the time. Just ask the big three automakers what happens when you do that.

All the same things that are said about the Arrow could be said about the Concorde, a wonderful aircraft but a commercial flop which cost Brit and French taxpayers billions.

[noahbody]

I would like to nominate "Avro Arrow" for the "2008 Thanks for coming out award'"

Edited November 10, 2008 by noahbody

[bush_cheney2004]

But that would mean the unenlightened masses couldn't blame the Americans because you know everything is always their fault.

No doubt....but the continued lament for what was never to be only detracts from what Canada (and Canadians) can and were able to do. It wasn't the engineering that went lacking. When the Americans cancel cutting edge development programs for any number of reasons (and the US has canceled dozens), we don't blame anybody else.

I suppose the fact that the Arrow still has such political staying power after nearly two generations is testament to the political struggle and intrigue more than anything to do with Reynold's numbers, boundary layers, or turbulance in supersonic flight.

...please pass the slide rule.

[Army Guy]

Kimmy, your full of surprises, a girl that can talk about fighters, thats frigging awesome, it's just rare to see thats all.

[bush_cheney2004]

....All the same things that are said about the Arrow could be said about the Concorde, a wonderful aircraft but a commercial flop which cost Brit and French taxpayers billions.

Right...which is why the Americans never produced their B-70 or SST. Sometimes when you build it...they don't come.

[Oleg Bach]

Right...which is why the Americans never produced their B-70 or SST. Sometimes when you build it...they don't come.

The Avro was pure art. The industrialists of that era were not interested in art - just more money.

[kimmy]

Kimmy, your full of surprises, a girl that can talk about fighters, thats frigging awesome, it's just rare to see thats all.

My daddy took me to the air show every year when I was younger. I've always loved planes, and the military ones are way cooler than the civilian ones.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

The Avro was pure art. The industrialists of that era were not interested in art - just more money.

Right...the most beautiful airframe I ever came close to was the A-5 nuclear bomber, which later became the RA-5C Vigilante after cooler heads realized that the Navy didn't need such nuclear capability. The aircraft was so "clean" that it would outrun its fighter escorts in 'Nam.

[kimmy]

Right...the most beautiful airframe I ever came close to was the A-5 nuclear bomber, which later became the RA-5C Vigilante after cooler heads realized that the Navy didn't need such nuclear capability. The aircraft was so "clean" that it would outrun its fighter escorts in 'Nam.

I think North American made the prettiest designs ever put in the sky.

-k

[GostHacked]

The current proposition is for the here and now...not 50 years ago. We don't build such interceptors any more. The Arrow was not better than anything the Americans had because it was never deployed (see F101 and F-102). And it certainly wouldn't happen today....multinational joint development of a strike fighter is happening (F-35). Reality trumps the fantasy that is the long ago Arrow poster child for national prowess.

At the time the performance of the Avro surpassed most of what was available out there.

If it was possible then.....why didn't it happen? The Americans actually produced many interceptors while Canada struggled to produce a handful....even with Yankee help (B-47 engine test bed, missile, fire control, and temporary engine). We even threw in air tunnel time at Langely AFB.

Politics played the big role in killing the Avro program. On both sides of the fence. And it was attributed to interceptor missles replacing the aircraft. It seems like the US tried something like the Arrow with the Rapier, but met the same fate as the Arrow. Overall it was technology and the price that killed the program.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avarrow.html

While the Arrow's development seemed to be going well, astute observers could see the program was running out of steam. Missiles seemed to be the way of the future for both defense and offense. Improved anti-aircraft missiles seemed able to deal with Soviet bombers, which American intelligence, through the use of the new U-2 spy plane, had discovered were by no means as numerous as had been thought. In any case, the development of intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) made visions of squadrons of such bombers streaking in over the Arctic obsolete, since ICBMs could not be intercepted by any technology available at the time.

--

In August, the Canadian government sent a mission to the US Air Force to sell them on the Arrow, but the USAF wasn't interested. They countered by promoting the Boeing BOMARC-B anti-aircraft missile, with a range of over 700 kilometers (435 miles), that seemed perfectly able to defend against intruding bombers, though the BOMARC program would prove to have problems of its own, with an unreliable guidance system and other troubles. The Diefenbaker government bought on to the BOMARC, while tentatively hanging on to the Arrow program at the same time.

If the Avro Arrow didn't happen because "the Americans wouldn't let us", that is the most pitiful excuse of all.

The one thing I noticed just now about the Arrow is that it had all internal weapon stores. Maybe this is where the F-22 got it's idea for internal weapon stores. Holding items internaly reduced the radar signature drasticly. Over some frame revisions like most aircraft has gone through, the Arrow can be made to be quite stealthy.

Right now the focus is unmanned aircraft. Remote control pilots. The days of human pilots sitting in the aircraft are numbered. Just not sure how far off that is. I recall that being a push in the 80s. Most of the aircraft books I owned talked about eliminating the pilot from the aircraft. Now UAVs are being introduced in every aspect of the military.

[Wilber]

The Brits went through the same thing with the TSR-2 back in the early sixties. Some countries can afford to go through these exercises more than once. Canada isn't one of them.