GM, Ford, Chrysler

[M.Dancer]

Whoo! Buy a new Super Duty and get a free Ranger.

New loaded GM silverados are only 28 large.

Time to go shopping!!

Honestly I think GM going belly up is a good thing. One is it just might shake up the sector enough to chaneg the way they do business and to make it competitive.

The other is we're buying a car next year and I would consider buying early if there's a liquidation sale.

I know Toyota and Honda are still considerng expanding in North America....wonder if they would consider taking over a used plant?

[Topaz]

Honestly I think GM going belly up is a good thing. One is it just might shake up the sector enough to chaneg the way they do business and to make it competitive.

The other is we're buying a car next year and I would consider buying early if there's a liquidation sale.

I know Toyota and Honda are still considerng expanding in North America....wonder if they would consider taking over a used plant?

Not all drivers like the small cars and to prove that the people in the US or Canada are starting to buy med and large cars again because of the gas prices are low. A GM dealer is selling the Buick Enclave, V6 or V8 but good on mileage, for 39,000 when the price is near to 50,000. I can't imagine the President of the US or the PM of Canada riding in an amour honda!

[M.Dancer]

Not all drivers like the small cars and to prove that the people in the US or Canada are starting to buy med and large cars again because of the gas prices are low. A GM dealer is selling the Buick Enclave, V6 or V8 but good on mileage, for 39,000 when the price is near to 50,000. I can't imagine the President of the US or the PM of Canada riding in an amour honda!

Hate to break this to you. Small cars is not the beginning or the end of the Toyota or Honda product line.

And yes, I could see any world leader riding in an armoured Lexus.

[Renegade]

So taxpayer's money should simply be handed over without accountability or veto power over how funds should be used?

No. It should not be handed over at all.

How could any govt input into on going operations be worse than the Big 3's own record?

It adds yet another incompetent cook in the kitchen.

Apparently the math dictates state intervention.

I'd like to see that math. It is more politics than math which dictates state intervention. The "math" also includes some guesses about the future. For example the government already has given the auto industry incentives to create jobs under the assumption that those jobs would be around and generate tax revenue "forever". That clearly was wrong. The auto industry now needs another intervention to save jobs. But for how long? Until the next bailout is required.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Renegade

[Renegade]

For those who are against using taxes dollars , lets remember Harper has helped out the grain farmer's, the fishermen, even the pig farmer's got 50 million. All these groups who needed help from the gov't should because they DO pay taxes and so doesn't the auto workers and they probably pay more than the other groups.

This seems to be ludicrous justfication for a bailout. Should all those taxpayers who aren't grain farmers, fishermen, pig farmers or in the auto industry, also expect bailouts too because they to pay taxes?

[Vancouver King]

Hate to break this to you. Small cars is not the beginning or the end of the Toyota or Honda product line.

Only an idiot would make such a statement.

Honda and Toyota both have V-8 pickups available and to you that seems to neutralize their deserved reputation for filling their showrooms with fuel efficient vehicles.

Why don't you try a night course in economics?

[M.Dancer]

Only an idiot would make such a statement.

Honda and Toyota both have V-8 pickups available and to you that seems to neutralize their deserved reputation for filling their showrooms with fuel efficient vehicles.

Why don't you try a night course in economics?

Why don't you try following the thread before you make yourself look even sillier.

K?thxbye

[GostHacked]

Hate to break this to you. Small cars is not the beginning or the end of the Toyota or Honda product line.

And yes, I could see any world leader riding in an armoured Lexus.

Toyota and Honda both started with small cars. And worked their way up. I'd say to them it was the beginning. The Civic was a small car back in the 80s. I mean tiny. The Civic is a lot larger than it ever was, howver, it has become more fuel efficient as time goes on. Not to mention the reliability track record with a Honda or Toyota surpases most North Amercan built vehicles.

One reason why people get into an SUV is a sense of safety if ever involved in a collision. So many large vehicles out there, the ones who have small cars, end up getting bigger cars to feel safe if they collide into one of the other SUVs on the road.

GM could have led the way in fuel effiecient cars and even electric vehicles. The EV1 was a perfect example of the technology at that time. it boasts the same range/speed as the newer hybrids that are comming out just now. Not only that, the EV1 was loved by the people who leased them (GM did not allow an outright buy of the car). Maybe they were not that commited to it in the first place.

Imagine if GM had really pushed that envelope then. What could we be driving today?

[Alta4ever]

Well I can tell you part of the problem, why buy a vehicle from GM, Ford, or Chrysler that has the added costs of a Union built into the vehicle, the cost of huge pensions that the unions got in the 70s. Not to mention the fact of an over paid work force. Up until this year I had bought nothing but Chev, but I am so sick of CAW I decided to buy Toyota, because their workers have seen the value of not having CAW in thier plants. They have had 5 unionization votes, and decided not to join all five times.

Until the North American auto industry can shake of the huge Albatros of CAW they are doomed to failure. I and a great deal others that I know will continue to buy the superiour products offered by Nissan, Toyota and there like.

[Vancouver King]

For example the government already has given the auto industry incentives to create jobs under the assumption that those jobs would be around and generate tax revenue "forever". That clearly was wrong. The auto industry now needs another intervention to save jobs. But for how long? Until the next bailout is required.

Tories better be seated at the table stateside when Obama's team finalize details of the auto sector bailout. Someone needs to defend Canada's stake in the industry particularly in light of the new president's campaign rhetoric on defending American jobs.

Canadians can only hope Obama has forgotten - or forgiven - Harper's PMO NAFTA intervention in the US primary process designed to embarrass the new president. If terms of the American auto relief involve gutting their Canadian operations, we will have Stephen Harper to thank for the job losses.

[M.Dancer]

Imagine if GM had really pushed that envelope then. What could we be driving today?

We would still be driving our 10 year old Pontiac Sunfire....

Next year though it may be a slightly used Kia

[Kenny]

These companies should be allowed to fail. It will be painful for the employees involved, but how can our capitalist society move forward if we don't let businesses fail and be replaced by more successful ventures?

[Moonbox]

Chrysler is done. There's not a chance in the world it will survive without pretty much a government buyout. GM and Ford are teetering on the brink.

Personally, I say good riddance. I'm not against well-paying jobs for Canadians. I think Canada NEEDS these sort of primary manufacturing businesses in order to survive as strong economy.

With that said, the Big Three gouged North Americans for decades with garbage cars for terrible prices. They were allowed to do this because there was no competition. Thank god to Toyota and Honda for allowing us an alternative where 30% of the cost of each vehicle DOESN'T go towards overpaying employees and paying benefit/pensions to uneducated and often unskilled workers.

GM has something like a $30/hour labour cost disadvantage compared to a Toyota or Honda when benefits and pensions are factored in. Why on earth should we, the consumers, pay that? No wonder we're not buying those cars.

Obviously you feel bad for the families getting laid off at the Big Three but only for how stupid they were to go along with the most disastrous and short-sighted union in world history. Message to CAW employees: Your wages and benefits are unsustainable and have been for a good long while. Next time you go to the negotiation table try and be a little more realistic.

[Vancouver King]

These companies should be allowed to fail. It will be painful for the employees involved, but how can our capitalist society move forward if we don't let businesses fail and be replaced by more successful ventures?

Moving forward has never been a priority for conservatives - that's why they are called conservatives. Neo-cons like Harper have agendas wrapped up with putting more money in the pockets of the rich and, to help accomplish this aim, by putting more money in corporate coffers.

$40 billion in tax breaks for banks, oil companies etc. are in addition to just announced $75 billion relief to the same chartered banks. In all of these mind boggling numbers how many dollars are ear marked for struggling, hard working taxpayers? Zero, nada, nothing.

That's right, not a dime. What else can be expected from a govt that raised income taxes on the poorest working Canadians in 2006?

[Alta4ever]

Moving forward has never been a priority for conservatives - that's why they are called conservatives. Neo-cons like Harper have agendas wrapped up with putting more money in the pockets of the rich and, to help accomplish this aim, by putting more money in corporate coffers.

$40 billion in tax breaks for banks, oil companies etc. are in addition to just announced $75 billion relief to the same chartered banks. In all of these mind boggling numbers how many dollars are ear marked for struggling, hard working taxpayers? Zero, nada, nothing.

That's right, not a dime. What else can be expected from a govt that raised income taxes on the poorest working Canadians in 2006?

So helping keep jobs for workers, would be considered doing nothing. would you rather just have the government pay a wage to the citizens instead until the government runs out of funds, and has no tax base left?

Please how do you help the hard working taxpayer from losing their job?

[Kenny]

Moving forward has never been a priority for conservatives - that's why they are called conservatives. Neo-cons like Harper have agendas wrapped up with putting more money in the pockets of the rich and, to help accomplish this aim, by putting more money in corporate coffers.

$40 billion in tax breaks for banks, oil companies etc. are in addition to just announced $75 billion relief to the same chartered banks. In all of these mind boggling numbers how many dollars are ear marked for struggling, hard working taxpayers? Zero, nada, nothing.

That's right, not a dime. What else can be expected from a govt that raised income taxes on the poorest working Canadians in 2006?

I don't really care for some Conservative policies either.

But it would be a disaster to save GM for both Canadian and US taxpayers. This business simply cannot create any value. The shares are trading where they were 65 years ago. The business languishes despite tax breaks and government subsidies. The business has poor economic fundamentals and without filing for bankruptcy, there is no possible way it will ever be a strong company for the long-term. We need to stop throwing tax dollars at this dog.

[Moonlight Graham]

This is mostly the car company's fault. Stop making trucks, SUV's, and Hummers, and start making more smaller cars that people are actually buying like the Civic, Echo, Honda Fit etc.

If they get any sort of bailout, they would have to pay it back + interest. This is a bit different than the bank crisis. This is just pure capitalism we're seeing.

[Oleg Bach]

The great and proud auto corporations that are iconic in our culture must not be destroyed - If you are going to tear down the temple you had better have an adequate replacement for it. Great imagination and artful skill is now paramount to quickly rebuild these companies. To disolve them or bail them out to prolong the negative out come is not the answer. We had better toss some mind power at the problem and not just money. Surely within our cutting edge polulation and our wise crafty old corporates - there must be a solution.

[M.Dancer]

This is mostly the car company's fault. Stop making trucks, SUV's, and Hummers, and start making more smaller cars that people are actually buying like the Civic, Echo, Honda Fit etc.

If they get any sort of bailout, they would have to pay it back + interest. This is a bit different than the bank crisis. This is just pure capitalism we're seeing.

There are more than one thing wrong.

While the SUV crqaze was in full swing they were proffitable. Where are those profits today? What reason would they have to assume that SUVs would always be in demand evan as companies like Toyota have been eating away at the NA auto makers marketshare for the past 10 years?

They next huge issue are pensions and healthcare. The pension plans are big venture cap and equity market investors...they have to be or something like 110% of the cost of a car would go to servicing benefits...they've been stung bad and the enefit holders are going to pay...

Let them go bankrupt...but rescue the pension plans.

[Oleg Bach]

There are more than one thing wrong.

While the SUV crqaze was in full swing they were proffitable. Where are those profits today? What reason would they have to assume that SUVs would always be in demand evan as companies like Toyota have been eating away at the NA auto makers marketshare for the past 10 years?

They next huge issue are pensions and healthcare. The pension plans are big venture cap and equity market investors...they have to be or something like 110% of the cost of a car would go to servicing benefits...they've been stung bad and the enefit holders are going to pay...

Let them go bankrupt...but rescue the pension plans.

I can see the greedy young executives opening up the pension plan gates as we speak - draining them into off shore accounts - who is going to police this great take down? What ever happened to the compact car that was such big news in the late 70s and 80s? It was not about the environment then it was about economy - apparently environment got a big name via SUVs and economy was tosses aside. It was all the rage to make smaller cars .....so what the heck was this SUV thing - that ironically arrived at the height of the environmentalist craze - I don't get it - was no one watching to see that there was something amiss? They were talking out of both sides of their mouths and we listened.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The current economy is driving real change in North America. The old left verses right argument is going out the window. Lines of realization are being drawn as we speak. The capitalists are screaming for handouts from the government, and the socialists are asking for handouts from the governments. The rich are taking hits and there are less people getting rich and more people becoming poor.

In my mind what this boils down to is debt creation instead of wealth creation. From both ends the government is being compelled to act, and to act is to spend tax dollars. From my viewpoint, I see taxes going up and services going down. The only safe bet is to reduce or eliminate personal debt and create tax deductions.

[Vancouver King]

The current economy is driving real change in North America. The old left verses right argument is going out the window.

There is noticeably less Harper-type drivel over the sanctity of the unfettered market; get the govt out of the face of business, cut red tape and regulation, etc. etc, now that the world's largest businesses line up for corporate welfare.

Socialist state intervention, suddenly, is all the rage. You can wager, though, if profitable times return, conservatives will pickup where they left off: govt has no place in the 'free market'.

A good rule of thumb is this: Only the profits are privatized - the losses are now to be borne by taxpayers.

[GostHacked]

We would still be driving our 10 year old Pontiac Sunfire....

Next year though it may be a slightly used Kia

I mean what if they really pushed the envelope for fuel efficient cars and even electric vehicles. GM could have been the frontrunner right now with electric vehicles. Honda took up the hybrid thing pretty early with the Prius. Almost an EV1 clone in terms of looks.

[M.Dancer]

I mean what if they really pushed the envelope for fuel efficient cars and even electric vehicles. GM could have been the frontrunner right now with electric vehicles. Honda took up the hybrid thing pretty early with the Prius. Almost an EV1 clone in terms of looks.

You are assuming of course that they haven't ...which of course they have. They could put on the market right now an electric car that could go 50km a hour for 5 hours....

...and they would lose their shirts trying.

The key is the power source. A battery that doesn't take 12 hours to charge, can deliver a top speed of 100 KPH and have a 24 hours enduirance.

We are not close....

I believe all the big automotive companies invested in Ballard....but they're still far away.

http://www.ballard.com

[GostHacked]

You are assuming of course that they haven't ...which of course they have. They could put on the market right now an electric car that could go 50km a hour for 5 hours....

That brings the total to 250 KMs per charge. The EV1 did that as well. They already HAD it on the market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

Electric range 160 mi (260 km) (NIMH)

...and they would lose their shirts trying.

They are loosing their shirts now anyways. So it would not have hurt to keep going with it.

The key is the power source. A battery that doesn't take 12 hours to charge, can deliver a top speed of 100 KPH and have a 24 hours enduirance.

But you got to look at it in terms of how people use the car on a daily basis. 90% of us would feel fine with an electric vehicle that is limiting but since you don't use it all the time, you can charge it when you are not using it.

For me I would be fine with renting a gas powered vehicle for long trips. It means you have to change your habits and lifestyle and your approach to the vehicle.

We are not close....

But we could be a lot closer. I'll check into the Ballard thing. Never heard of it before.