Listeria & Tainted Meat

[August1991]

I'm surprised that we don't have a thread on this. If we do, note to mods: please merge.

Small meat producers and a meat industry group are at odds over how consumers can reduce the risk of food-borne illness in the wake of a listeriosis outbreak that has been blamed for several deaths across Canada.

The outbreak has been traced to a large Maple Leaf Foods processing plant in Toronto.

Smaller meat producers such as Dave Smith, owner of Glen Farm just outside Ottawa, said people can reduce their exposure to such risks by buying meat from small local farmers.

"I think in terms of safety, we can reduce risk by having fewer hands in the pot," Smith said.

CBC

There's some truth to this, but not in the way teh CBC presents the story.

The federal government has 3000 food inspectors and I blame them for this outbreak. What incentive does a government bureaucrat have to ensure food is safe? Government bureaucrats never get fired and they never go to jail for their incompetence.

Worse, the very existence of the government bureaucrats removes the responsibility from the private food supplier. Maple Leaf, for example, can now hide behind the claim that it met "government standards" and "government inspectors" approved its procedures.

The best guarantee of the products we use is the reputation of the producer. Companies carefully develop and jealously protect a brand name because they know that its the name that guarantees their livelihood. McDonald's does not want to serve food that is dangerous because then people won't eat at McDonald's. Airlines don't want to have plane cradshes because then people won't fly on their airplanes.

Product liability law can help in this process but it's not necessary. What is required are clear intellectual property rights through trademarks.

To return to the CBC article, I'm not sure that a small butcher or a large meat processor is safer. Neither should be able to pass the buck to someone else if something goes wrong.

At some point in the future, the federal government will get out of the food inspection business. Government food inspectors don't have the correct incentives to do the job well. This latest scandal with Maple Leaf meats is another example.

[Moonbox]

3000 meat inspectors isn't enough to do the job quite frankly. I can speak from experience here as well. I spent 4 summers working at a meat packaging plant to help fund my education, and quite frankly the workers there took no pride in the product they were producing.

At this plant, when a piece of meat fell on the ground, guess what happened? Someone, sometimes even a supervisor, would pick the piece of meat up, spray it with a bit of water and clean it off, and put it right back on the production line. When you have hundreds of people walking around with raw, rotten and bloody meat on their boots, even the dimmest of people would know that the right thing to do would be to throw that piece of meat out after it hits the floor. Sadly this doesn't always happen.

The meat inspectors can't be there every day. Sure, when they WERE there, everyone would behave properly, but as soon as they were gone, it was back to normal.

The companies themselves need to ensure quality and to some extent be held responsible for tainted meat problems like this. On the other hand, there's no way they could afford the steps necessary to make the meat 100% safe 100% of the time. There's too many variables to account for, the worst of which are the people working with meat.

Moral of the story is: Cook your meat. That should be a no-brainer by now but apparently it isn't

[Argus]

I'm surprised that we don't have a thread on this. If we do, note to mods: please merge.

CBC

There's some truth to this, but not in the way teh CBC presents the story.

The federal government has 3000 food inspectors and I blame them for this outbreak. What incentive does a government bureaucrat have to ensure food is safe? Government bureaucrats never get fired and they never go to jail for their incompetence.

Worse, the very existence of the government bureaucrats removes the responsibility from the private food supplier. Maple Leaf, for example, can now hide behind the claim that it met "government standards" and "government inspectors" approved its procedures.

While we don't yet know how this happened, I'm willing to bet the procedures were fine. If it turns out that inspections weren't being carried out properly that's Maple Leaf Food's problem, not the government. The government turned over that job to Maple Leaf Foods some time ago. So you have just the system you are complaining we don't have.

[guyser]

The federal government has 3000 food inspectors and I blame them for this outbreak. What incentive does a government bureaucrat have to ensure food is safe? Government bureaucrats never get fired and they never go to jail for their incompetence.

Having worked on the line with and known a couple of inspectors I do not agree.

The meat plant I worked at would have dozens of inspectors, and every hog 's guts were handled and inspected by the CFIA guys. At most we did 3000-3500 hogs a day. Every single hog had it s own tray and the line would be shut down at the slightest provocation .

Worse, the very existence of the government bureaucrats removes the responsibility from the private food supplier. Maple Leaf, for example, can now hide behind the claim that it met "government standards" and "government inspectors" approved its procedures.

The private supplier suffers the lose on an outbreak.So the owner cannot hide behind anyone, and will in many cases be put out of business.

The plant where I worked had its own lab that tested products every single day to ensure quality. I ate raw bacon every single morning to ensure the quality of said product since I ran the bellies room.

They may share in the blame, but cannot hide behind it.

The best guarantee of the products we use is the reputation of the producer. Companies carefully develop and jealously protect a brand name because they know that its the name that guarantees their livelihood. McDonald's does not want to serve food that is dangerous because then people won't eat at McDonald's. Airlines don't want to have plane cradshes because then people won't fly on their airplanes.

Contradiction to your earlier paragraph doncha think?

Product liability law can help in this process but it's not necessary. What is required are clear intellectual property rights through trademarks.

And since a small company , once id'd as the source of an outbreak is cancelled and blackmarked, liability ins does in fact help regulate the produceers.

[guyser]

At this plant, when a piece of meat fell on the ground, guess what happened? Someone, sometimes even a supervisor, would pick the piece of meat up, spray it with a bit of water and clean it off, and put it right back on the production line. When you have hundreds of people walking around with raw, rotten and bloody meat on their boots, even the dimmest of people would know that the right thing to do would be to throw that piece of meat out after it hits the floor. Sadly this doesn't always happen.

So what if the meat falls on the floor. The kill floor and processing lines are cleaned daily, the place is kept almost refrigerator cool, thus virtually nothing can grow. Besides, that meat is to be cooked. Id worry more about your friend dropping meat on his floor, than a meat packing floor.

Raw and bloody ok, rotten meat? Oh please. If true, shame on you for not reporting it. You had a duty to report that and didnt, again if true.

The meat inspectors can't be there every day.

Then the line does not get started up. No meat gets processed.

Edited August 27, 2008 by guyser

[eyeball]

At some point in the future, the federal government will get out of the food inspection business. Government food inspectors don't have the correct incentives to do the job well.

Not until it drives all the small producers out of business for the benefit of large corporations just like they're doing with C-51. I suspect small local farmer's markets for fruits and vegetables will be next on the list of small producers that are wiped out in the name of public safety.

This snip from the cbc article says it all.

New rules threaten local meat: retailer

Despite a demand for local meat, some owners of stores that sell it say they are struggling.

Simone Sauvé, owner of the Glebe Meat Market, said safety rules the government introduced a year ago, driven by the meat industry, are part of the problem.

"We face possibly having to close this store because we can't implement their rules," she said, adding that retailers have been given some extra time to come into compliance.

The new rules call for separate tables for each type of meat, a disinfection schedule that would require the store to close twice daily for an hour at a time, and many separate coolers.

Sauvé said there has never been a problem with meat sold at her store, so such regulations are unnecessary.

But they could drive meat shops that sell local meat out of business, she said, leaving behind only the large national distributors.

"It will be controlled by large companies such as Maple Leaf. [if] there's a problem, it goes from B.C. to Atlantic Canada."

This latest scandal with Maple Leaf meats is another example.

Actually it'll be a good excersize for government and industry to learn how to better manage future outbreaks. Perhaps more regulation of what the media is told to report to the public and when...

Edited August 27, 2008 by eyeball

[Moonbox]

So what if the meat falls on the floor. The kill floor and processing lines are cleaned daily, the place is kept almost refrigerator cool, thus virtually nothing can grow. Besides, that meat is to be cooked. Id worry more about your friend dropping meat on his floor, than a meat packing floor.

Cooking really is the key isn't it? Too bad you can't count on everyone at home and at restaurants to follow safe food practises.

Raw and bloody ok, rotten meat? Oh please. If true, shame on you for not reporting it. You had a duty to report that and didnt, again if true.

Then the line does not get started up. No meat gets processed.

Rotten meat, yes. Your boots don't get stored in a refrigerator nor is there really a good way to make sure your boots get perfectly clean every time you leave the floor. What are you going to do, have people supervising 300 employees at the end of every shift watching each and every one of them clean their boots? Not possible.

As for me and my shame, spare me. The student workers there got fired for things as small as stretching out their backs too much. With a university education riding on my and my friends' continued employment there, I wasn't about to kick up a stink. The fact is even if you do report it it's not like you have any proof. The meat inspectors would show up again, everyone would behave, and there would be nothing to note.

Bottom line is you have to cook your meat. The people who don't either aren't handling their food properly or the restaurants they eat at aren't.

[HisSelf]

Cooking really is the key isn't it? Too bad you can't count on everyone at home and at restaurants to follow safe food practises.

Rotten meat, yes. Your boots don't get stored in a refrigerator nor is there really a good way to make sure your boots get perfectly clean every time you leave the floor. What are you going to do, have people supervising 300 employees at the end of every shift watching each and every one of them clean their boots? Not possible.

As for me and my shame, spare me. The student workers there got fired for things as small as stretching out their backs too much. With a university education riding on my and my friends' continued employment there, I wasn't about to kick up a stink. The fact is even if you do report it it's not like you have any proof. The meat inspectors would show up again, everyone would behave, and there would be nothing to note.

Bottom line is you have to cook your meat. The people who don't either aren't handling their food properly or the restaurants they eat at aren't.

There are a lot of food service companies that rely on suppliers so they can slap together a meal without doing any cooking, so I think this won't cover it.

What I am seeing in the press right now is that the food safety protocols had vulnerabilities - sort of like those unlocked flight deck doors on 9/11. The vulnerability is that the protocol said that if listeria was found by swabbing THE EQUIPMENT, then THE EQUIPMENT should be sanitized and swabbed again. The protocols did not call for testing any PRODUCT that had come through the dirty line.

I see dual fault here. Sure the fed protocol missed on this, but Maple Lef Foods have their own experts and they could have been more on the ball. Maybe there was a guy somehwre in the MLF system somewhere who hollered about this? I'm willing to bet there was one...

I would not be at all surprised if this was a wake up call for a lot more players in our food industry than just Maple Lef Foods. I hope they survive. This could have happened to anybody and they have been an excellent supplier for 100 years. That's gotta count for something.

[guyser]

Cooking really is the key isn't it? Too bad you can't count on everyone at home and at restaurants to follow safe food practises.

I order carpaccio all the time. Never a problem.

Ate raw hamburger all the time as a kid. Never a problem. Probably would do it again if I kept in contact with my old supplier.

Rotten meat, yes. Your boots don't get stored in a refrigerator nor is there really a good way to make sure your boots get perfectly clean every time you leave the floor. What are you going to do, have people supervising 300 employees at the end of every shift watching each and every one of them clean their boots? Not possible.

Considering a plant uses almost 99.5 % of a carcass I dont see how this could be valid. If rotten it would safely be sold for rendering or dog food. They cannot afford to elt anything got to waste let alone rot.

Bottom line is you have to cook your meat. The people who don't either aren't handling their food properly or the restaurants they eat at aren't.

Beef ...rare thanks. Lamb... rare thanks. Chicken....cooked through , no pink. Pork, tinge of pink at centre.

[eyeball]

Cooking really is the key isn't it?

Not in the case of the processed (cooked) sandwhich meats that are presently killing people.

[Wild Bill]

Does the Ontario provincial government have anything to do with inspections?

The reason I ask is that when the Walkerton tainted water scandal happened all the usual Lib left crowd were screaming it was all Mike Harris' fault. It didn't matter that it was a couple of good ol' boys that ran the town water supply and faked all the mandatory tests. Apparently, Mike Harris had put a gun to their heads and FORCED them to taint the water, just because he was a Tory and that's what Tories do!

Now we have people dying from tainted meat yet no one is mentioning McGuinty's name.

This couldn't be an indication of a bias, now could it?

[Topaz]

The list online is 5 pages and some of the meats mentioned are spread across a lot of businesses. Two that really surprised me was Tim Horton's SLICED BEEF IN GRAVY FROZEN AND SLOW ROAST BEEF. I would think the groceries stores would feel this too.

[guyser]

Does the Ontario provincial government have anything to do with inspections?

This couldn't be an indication of a bias, now could it?

Nope , federal inspection agency.

[Moonbox]

Considering a plant uses almost 99.5 % of a carcass I dont see how this could be valid. If rotten it would safely be sold for rendering or dog food. They cannot afford to elt anything got to waste let alone rot.

I'm talking about the pieces of meat that go flying when the cutters are chopping up the meat, or opening up bags of meat, or scraping them clean etc etc etc.

A lot of meat goes flying around. A lot of shavings and marrow etc ends up on the floor and on you as you work. You end up with crap all over your boots and in your tread, and then when you walk outside the production floor that's no longer refrigerated and is allowed to rot. You clean most of it off, but not all, and there's no way those floors are clean halfway through a shift.

[Moonbox]

Not in the case of the processed (cooked) sandwhich meats that are presently killing people.

Touché. I really don't have anything to respond to that with. All I can really say is that having worked in a meat factory, I'm not surprised and I also think it's impossibly hard to regulate fully.

[August1991]

While we don't yet know how this happened, I'm willing to bet the procedures were fine. If it turns out that inspections weren't being carried out properly that's Maple Leaf Food's problem, not the government. The government turned over that job to Maple Leaf Foods some time ago. So you have just the system you are complaining we don't have.

You miss the point, Argus.

The existence of a government food agency provides false security. Everyone can then say: "The government says it must be OK so I guess it must be OK." Maple Leaf and on down through the chain to the consumer in a kitchen is then absolved of responsibility.

This is the problem of government in general. It says that it will take care of us but looking more closely, it doesn't have the incentives to do so.

[guyser]

I'm talking about the pieces of meat that go flying when the cutters are chopping up the meat, or opening up bags of meat, or scraping them clean etc etc etc.

I have no idea where you worked, but I can categorically state that was not the case at neither Canada Packers nor Toronto Abboitoir/Quality Meats.

Meat is cut with such a sharp blade nothing is "flying". Cutters hone the knife every second or third cut. Besides , that is money lost and it simply did not occur at the two mentioned above.

A lot of meat goes flying around. A lot of shavings and marrow etc ends up on the floor and on you as you work. and there's no way those floors are clean halfway through a shift.

Lost money is not the norm.

As for clean, thats not in perspective. Blood, minor trimmings are not "dirty" but part andf parcel of the job.

Dirty is contaminated, roaches, etc.

Two things convince this is not true.

1) Lost money, if , as you say, the meat is flying , ergo lost, then money is lost.

2) meat packers by virtue of the business have one of the highest rates for WICB. The idea that fat trimmings are floating around when there are 100 guys on the kill floor holding razor sharp knives in their hand let alone the ones carried on their hip , is to me hard to believe.

[madmax]

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/Breakin.../article/373257

the federal agency responsible for food safety began this year to let the industry conduct its own food testing.

They say the lone federal inspector at the Maple Leaf Foods Toronto plant at the centre of the country-wide listeriosis outbreak was relegated to auditing company paperwork

That appears to contradict the impression officials left last week that full-time watchdogs were at the

Toronto plant, which has been closed since last Thursday for disinfecting.

Under the new system, federal inspectors perform random product tests only three or four times a year at any given plant, and meat packers are required to test each type of product only once a month.

So who was inspecting the product and what happened this time?

[guyser]

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/Breakin.../article/373257

So who was inspecting the product and what happened this time?

ML must buy sides for processing instead of killing their own. One insepctor?

My guess is the lab inside ML was doing the testing of all products and missed it. Major big whoops and will, and already has, cost them millions. This will put a dent in the bottom line not to mention the far more importance of people dying !

I have a funny feeling that something ML used to package/ship the product after the testing could be implicated. It seems far to widespread to have gone unnoticed considering the safegaurds they do have in place.

[Moonbox]

I have no idea where you worked, but I can categorically state that was not the case at neither Canada Packers nor Toronto Abboitoir/Quality Meats.

Meat is cut with such a sharp blade nothing is "flying". Cutters hone the knife every second or third cut. Besides , that is money lost and it simply did not occur at the two mentioned above.

Lost money is not the norm.

Pardon my colorful rhetoric. While pieces of meat aren't literally flying this way and that and the floor isn't totally covered in pieces of meat, there most certainly are the odd pieces here and there that do end up on the floor. These are the trimmings and little giblets etc. You literally can't avoid the odd piece falling to the floor on a regular basis.

As for clean, thats not in perspective. Blood, minor trimmings are not "dirty" but part andf parcel of the job.

Dirty is contaminated, roaches, etc.

You're right, they're not dirty when they hit the floor. They ARE dirty when they get stuck in the tread of boots, or in their laces and shoe buckles etc and then are worn off the production floor, stored at room temperature in lockers for weekends, and then worn down again to the production floor. This is what I'm talking about. You're also not going to keep the floor clean when people are walking all over the place in the factory outside the production floor. There WILL be contamination on the floor unless you have disinfectant spraying the floor 24/7.

Two things convince this is not true.

1) Lost money, if , as you say, the meat is flying , ergo lost, then money is lost.

2) meat packers by virtue of the business have one of the highest rates for WICB. The idea that fat trimmings are floating around when there are 100 guys on the kill floor holding razor sharp knives in their hand let alone the ones carried on their hip , is to me hard to believe.

While I do take insult to your basically calling me a liar, I'll try to respond with some cold hard logic. Yes, fat trimming on the floor is lost money. At the same time, if your workforce has to work so carefully that NO fat trimming hits the floor, they'll be working so slowly that the company would lose money anyways. I'm not talking about the kill floor either. I'm talking about big pieces of meat going to the packaging plant, being cut by BONESAWS that would take a man's hand off in 2 seconds into smaller dinner-sized portions, and then being packaged for grocery stores.

I left the factory floor as often as not with blood and marrow and meat pulp on me from my boots up to my chest. I had to wear plastic aprons down to my knees because of this. Don't even try to tell me that there isn't going to be the odd piece of fat or sawed up meat goop falling on the floor, because I've literally lived that for about 10 months of my life.

[madmax]

I left the factory floor as often as not with blood and marrow and meat pulp on me from my boots up to my chest. I had to wear plastic aprons down to my knees because of this. Don't even try to tell me that there isn't going to be the odd piece of fat or sawed up meat goop falling on the floor, because I've literally lived that for about 10 months of my life.

With descriptions like that, I bet that both you and Guyser are Vegetarians now. Guyser isn't one to call a person a liar. And saying something isn't true, can be a matter of interpretation of events or places.

This can be a difference of opinion. If I say something is "not true" I can't recall using that as a way to call someone a liar. If I say something is not true, if often means I disagree and have a different set of facts and experiences.

People on these forums are going to use terms like "not true" and other arguments when in a discussion on a forum.

However, when someone says, YOUR A LIAR, or YOU LIE< then you should take that at face value for what it is.

I am reading both of your descriptions of the industry. It helps understand what used to be done as opposed to what is being done today.

Either way, I think Maple Leaf will not recover from this for a very long time, if ever.

Name change coming .....

[margrace]

I'm surprised that we don't have a thread on this. If we do, note to mods: please merge.

CBC

There's some truth to this, but not in the way teh CBC presents the story.

The federal government has 3000 food inspectors and I blame them for this outbreak. What incentive does a government bureaucrat have to ensure food is safe? Government bureaucrats never get fired and they never go to jail for their incompetence.

Worse, the very existence of the government bureaucrats removes the responsibility from the private food supplier. Maple Leaf, for example, can now hide behind the claim that it met "government standards" and "government inspectors" approved its procedures.

The best guarantee of the products we use is the reputation of the producer. Companies carefully develop and jealously protect a brand name because they know that its the name that guarantees their livelihood. McDonald's does not want to serve food that is dangerous because then people won't eat at McDonald's. Airlines don't want to have plane cradshes because then people won't fly on their airplanes.

Product liability law can help in this process but it's not necessary. What is required are clear intellectual property rights through trademarks.

To return to the CBC article, I'm not sure that a small butcher or a large meat processor is safer. Neither should be able to pass the buck to someone else if something goes wrong.

At some point in the future, the federal government will get out of the food inspection business. Government food inspectors don't have the correct incentives to do the job well. This latest scandal with Maple Leaf meats is another example.

Add that Harper is supposed to have said then people can sue the companies if they die?

[August1991]

Add that Harper is supposed to have said then people can sue the companies if they die?

Well, if the government food inspectors fail in their job, even the relatives can't sue them.

But look Margrace, a civil suit (or even the threat of one) is not necessary for a private company to do everything reasonable in its power to keep its name (and its products) clean. They have an incentive to do so.

In Canada, we have muddied these waters with government food inspectors who give the false impression to everyone that they are assuming responsability for inspecting food when in fact they don't.

It seems obvious to me that smart food companies (and airlines etc) already view government inspectors as burdensome bureaucrats. Having the government seal of approval is meaningless in any real sense.

Toyota didn't become successful because it sells cars with faulty brakes, or because Canadian government inspectors have inspected and approved Toyotas brake systems. You might want to think about this everytime you put on your brakes while driving.

My guess is the lab inside ML was doing the testing of all products and missed it. Major big whoops and will, and already has, cost them millions. This will put a dent in the bottom line not to mention the far more importance of people dying !

I have a funny feeling that something ML used to package/ship the product after the testing could be implicated. It seems far to widespread to have gone unnoticed considering the safegaurds they do have in place.

People knew and trusted the Maple Leaf name so ultimately it's up to Maple Leaf to ensure quality control all along the chain.

In the same breath, Maple Leaf is (was) entitled to the big bucks because of its name.

I agree though guyser that the best/most reliable protection is the bottom line. Many companies in Canada are no doubt revising now their inspection policies. Maple Leaf Foods stock price.

----

As I argued above, government inspectors/bureaucrats too often give a false sense of security. In fact, the ture question is not "security" but rather "how much security".

We cannot make all our food absolutely safe. The cost would simply be too high. Instead, we make it reasonably safe given the costs involved. But this isn't one size fits all. Some people want things safer and where meat is concerned, they become vegetarian or avoid certain types of meat. Other people choose differently.

This recent Spanair crash in Spain is a case in point. Different people are prepared to pay different amounts for safety.

[blueblood]

Well, if the government food inspectors fail in their job, even the relatives can't sue them.

But look Margrace, a civil suit (or even the threat of one) is not necessary for a private company to do everything reasonable in its power to keep its name (and its products) clean. They have an incentive to do so.

In Canada, we have muddied these waters with government food inspectors who give the false impression to everyone that they are assuming responsability for inspecting food when in fact they don't.

It seems obvious to me that smart food companies (and airlines etc) already view government inspectors as burdensome bureaucrats. Having the government seal of approval is meaningless in any real sense.

Toyota didn't become successful because it sells cars with faulty brakes, or because Canadian government inspectors have inspected and approved Toyotas brake systems. You might want to think about this everytime you put on your brakes while driving.

People knew and trusted the Maple Leaf name so ultimately it's up to Maple Leaf to ensure quality control all along the chain.

In the same breath, Maple Leaf is (was) entitled to the big bucks because of its name.

I agree though guyser that the best/most reliable protection is the bottom line. Many companies in Canada are no doubt revising now their inspection policies. Maple Leaf Foods stock price.

----

As I argued above, government inspectors/bureaucrats too often give a false sense of security. In fact, the ture question is not "security" but rather "how much security".

We cannot make all our food absolutely safe. The cost would simply be too high. Instead, we make it reasonably safe given the costs involved. But this isn't one size fits all. Some people want things safer and where meat is concerned, they become vegetarian or avoid certain types of meat. Other people choose differently.

This recent Spanair crash in Spain is a case in point. Different people are prepared to pay different amounts for safety.

This is why I do my butcher my own beef in december in a nonheated shop. I waste 1/2 to 2/3 of the animal because I have that luxury of next to no overhead and it still works out cheaper than buying at the store,

August, take a look at the share price of Maple Leaf. They messed up and are now paying for it. Other than that I agree that gov't employees should be canned for incompetance.

[jdobbin]

At some point in the future, the federal government will get out of the food inspection business. Government food inspectors don't have the correct incentives to do the job well. This latest scandal with Maple Leaf meats is another example.

You think if companies monitored their own that things would be better? What evidence is there that this is true?