Canada's Gas Prices

bush_cheney2004 · July 20, 2008

I don't get it about energy - diesel has the octane power of frinking butter...where as gas has the octane exposive power of ...well gas...and to see diesel on par and surpassing the price of gas shows clearly that this whole thing is a fraud...

No, the opposite is true. Diesel fuel energy density is higher than consumer grade gasolines. The Diesel cycle is also thermodynamically more efficient than the Otto cycle because of higher (adiabatic) compression ratios. These efficiencies have long been recognized for cost effective operation of trucks, buses, locomotives, marine power plants, etc.

Octane ratings are more related to desired anti pre-ignition (ping) properties.

Edited July 20, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

Oleg Bach · July 20, 2008

No, the opposite is true. Diesel fuel energy density is higher than consumer grade gasolines. The Diesel cycle is also thermodynamically more efficient than the Otto cycle because of higher (adiabatic) compression ratios. These efficiencies have long been recognized for cost effective operation of trucks, buses, locomotives, marine power plants, etc.
Octane ratings are more related to desired anti pre-ignition (ping) properties.

Nice tech rant my friend - I don't buy it ....you pour out a cup of diesel on the ground and the same with a cup of gas - the diesel does not have the same immediate explosive power when set alight...my common sense says that diesel is less refined hence less expensive also ....but you do make sence - I don't want sense - and please tell me the compression ration of whale oil..

bush_cheney2004 · July 20, 2008

Nice tech rant my friend - I don't buy it ....you pour out a cup of diesel on the ground and the same with a cup of gas - the diesel does not have the same immediate explosive power when set alight...my common sense says that diesel is less refined hence less expensive also ....but you do make sence - I don't want sense - and please tell me the compression ration of whale oil..

I'm sorry..I thought you wanted the real answer, not a fairy tale. My bad. Refined uranium has a much higher energy density as well, but it is not popular with gasoline arsonists either.

Oleg Bach · July 20, 2008

I'm sorry..I thought you wanted the real answer, not a fairy tale. My bad. Refined uranium has a much higher energy density as well, but it is not popular with gasoline arsonists either.

Don't get me wrong - your right answer is highly appreciated..after all - you are educated in this area and I am not - but I am willing to learn and I just did - thanks!

M.Dancer · July 21, 2008

Troll? "Stabalize" the price of oil? House cleaning aside.
It just seems to me that if, according to you, capitalist Albertans should sell oil to other Canadians at $45 per barrel, then capitalist Ontarians should sell Blackberrys to other Canadians at $10 each too.

We're all in this together, no? Shouldn't we help each other out?

We should pass a law that sets aside part of the Blackberry production for Canadian needs...and somehow force RIM to sell them bellow the market value......how does that work?

Wild Bill · July 21, 2008

Don't get me wrong - your right answer is highly appreciated..after all - you are educated in this area and I am not - but I am willing to learn and I just did - thanks!

I suspect you too are old enough to remember the early 80's, not that long after the shock of OPEC. The auto companies were starting to offer Diesel models. My neighbour's grandfather used to drive a big GM sedan back and forth from Kingston to Hamilton, ON. It was a diesel and got fabulous mileage and incredible engine life.

At the time diesel was a lot cheaper than regular gas. After all, regular gas is refined a few steps after diesel. Seeing VW diesels on the road didn't seem to scare the oil companies but a big model Chevy old man's car sure did. Diesel jumped up to par and later a bit above regular gas.

If we have a big switch to electricity watch for electricity rates to go up too.

M.Dancer · July 21, 2008

Seeing VW diesels on the road didn't seem to scare the oil companies but a big model Chevy old man's car sure did. Diesel jumped up to par and later a bit above regular gas.
If we have a big switch to electricity watch for electricity rates to go up too.

While fear often plays it's role in the marketplace, it's demand that is responsible for the price rise. And if there is a big switch to 'lectricity, it will be the big increase in demand that will be responsible for the rise in price.

Wild Bill · July 21, 2008

While fear often plays it's role in the marketplace, it's demand that is responsible for the price rise. And if there is a big switch to 'lectricity, it will be the big increase in demand that will be responsible for the rise in price.

Well, in the situation back then there was next to no time to have developed increased demand for diesel. I think it obvious that the "suits" simply panicked at the thought of a big switch towards diesel happening in the market and upped the price to remove the incentive. It was a smart business move. Even if more diesel engines showed up because diesel was cheaper to refine anyway they would make MORE profit!

Ordinarily when someone cites supply and demand with prices I tend to agree but oil is a special case. We have an oligopoly, not a free market.

The entire 20th Century developed modern energy sources as coming from large central suppliers. You end up with consumers dependent on a relative few sources. This is a much easier market to control. You can have gentlemen's agreements respected with no need for written agreements that might cause legal problems.

Back in Edison's time there were small independent electricity generators all over the place. Here in Canada few today know that people like Sir Adam Beck who developed sources like Niagara Falls and founded public companies like Ontario Hydro were doing so to deliberately drive independents out of the market. Their hearts may have been pure in thinking that they were "protecting the common man from those evil profit-mongering capitalists" but they were naive in believing that a large public company would not only always act in the public interest but INTELLIGENTLY act in such interest!

What they really achieved was to limit the common man's choices, by restricting the number of competitive players. As with electricity came gas and oil. There are not that many players in the market and even fewer refinery sources.

No matter what form of energy becomes standard, as long as it comes from only a few large central sources the ordinary Joe will be bled as much as possible, just short of killing him. His only hope is to have his own independent supply, like a solar roof and/or his own wind generator.

Or maybe that trash-eating "Mr. Fusion" generator in that time-traveling DeLorean...

Edited July 21, 2008 by Wild Bill

bush_cheney2004 · July 21, 2008

....No matter what form of energy becomes standard, as long as it comes from only a few large central sources the ordinary Joe will be bled as much as possible, just short of killing him. His only hope is to have his own independent supply, like a solar roof and/or his own wind generator.

And that's why we have public utilities commissions to regulate increases. Still, small suppliers do exist...I get my juice from a small county co-operative that only asks consumers to limit peak demand so it doesn't have to build extra capacity. Ordinary Joes are also investing in standby generators and inverters. Mad Max is not too far away after all.

Edited July 21, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

M.Dancer · July 21, 2008

Well, in the situation back then there was next to no time to have developed increased demand for diesel.

No it doesn't work that way. Go to europe. Deisel is everywhere.

madmax · July 22, 2008

Once again, there is no good reason for Canadian Tax payers to subsidize the price of gas.

Nor any good reason to give subsidies to the oil companies to export to the US first.

BTW... Is your car forsale?

bush_cheney2004 · July 22, 2008

Nor any good reason to give subsidies to the oil companies to export to the US first.

Oh no? Then please explain how/why Canada didn't pony up all the capital to develop the resource in the first place, let alone having a market large enough to make it worth while.

Edited July 22, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

madmax · July 22, 2008

Oh no? Then please explain how/why Canada didn't pony up all the capital to develop the resource in the first place, let alone having a market large enough to make it worth while.

The market is there. Companies can invest and will invest without corporate welfare.

The Conservative Government should not subsidize the oil companies or the United States need for oil.

If we cannot subsidize our own nation, it makes no sense to subsidize yours with our money.

whowhere · July 22, 2008

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/c...-production/647

Granted, extracting and upgrading the heavy bitumen is an energy-intensive process. But as technology improves, that process will become more efficient. Believe me, if companies were able to stay around throughout $20/bbl oil, they'll thrive when oil hits $120 a barrel.

Wow if it is only Costing Alberta $20 a barrel to extract the oil from the oil sands they are really sticking it to Canada.

Edited July 22, 2008 by whowhere

eyeball · July 22, 2008

...Canada's agenda wasn't to pull a Chavez and snatch its oil resources from under producers' feet.

Alberta is really a part of Canada in name only - their heart hasn't been in it for decades.

August1991 · July 22, 2008

Alberta is really a part of Canada in name only - their heart hasn't been in it for decades.

Even if the oil belonged to all Canadians, it would still be foolish (wasteful, costly) to sell it to ourselves at anything less than the world price.

Anyway, Albertans have been a net contributor to the federal kitty for over 40 years. Where do you think they get the money? I don't know the exact split but Albertan oil belongs in effect to all Canadians as it does to Albertans.

Edited July 22, 2008 by August1991

Smallc · July 22, 2008

Alberta is really a part of Canada in name only - their heart hasn't been in it for decades.

Alberta is just as much a part of Canada as any other part of the country. Many Canadians are prouder than ever to be a part of this country and no one can take away from that.

whowhere · July 22, 2008

Even if the oil belonged to all Canadians, it would still be foolish (wasteful, costly) to sell it to ourselves at anything less than the world price.
Anyway, Albertans have been a net contributor to the federal kitty for over 40 years. Where do you think they get the money? I don't know the exact split but Albertan oil belongs in effect to all Canadians as it does to Albertans.

The only ones who are benefiting from world oil prices is the oil companies and those in government. Canadians in general are not benefiting from this oil. High oil prices only hurt domestic industry. Stupid is what stupid does. Canada and the US import items from china, china in turn uses this money to drive up gas prices. It's a false economy. You think you are saving money by buying goods from China but you are actually paying for these goods at the pumps and through lost jobs. Canada has the power to stabalize oil prices for Canada. It is within Canada's right to do so.

eyeball · July 22, 2008

Canada should be as wary of selling oil as it is water.

Canadians should also be as wary of Alberta as Albertans are of Quebec.

August1991 · July 22, 2008

The only ones who are benefiting from world oil prices is the oil companies and those in government.

As a Canadian outside Alberta, I don't benefit? Please explain.

Canada should be as wary of selling oil as it is water.

What about softwood? Should we be wary about selling softwood to Americans? If Americans refuse to buy our wood, is that good - or bad?

If Americans refuse to buy (or want to buy) our water, oil, wood, is that good or bad for us? Please explain.

Canadians should also be as wary of Alberta as Albertans are of Quebec.

IME, and I have seen it (translated it) at a personal level, Albertans are not wary of Quebecers. They understand each other well.

IME, Canada is a broad country and it works best when people are not forced to choose between their own place and Canada. Both are good.

Edited July 22, 2008 by August1991

blueblood · July 22, 2008

according to the Western Producer, oil is expected to hover around the 100 dollar a barell mark in the near future due to a slowdown in the worldwide economy. The bubble is about to burst.

guyser · July 22, 2008

according to the Western Producer, oil is expected to hover around the 100 dollar a barell mark in the near future due to a slowdown in the worldwide economy. The bubble is about to burst.

if so, wanna bet the per litre price doesnt come down to the same price it was when going up?

Smallc · July 22, 2008

if so, wanna bet the per litre price doesnt come down to the same price it was when going up?

It all depends on what the dollar does.

whowhere · July 23, 2008

As a Canadian outside Alberta, I don't benefit? Please explain.

If you call paying world oil prices at the pump a benefit I would hate to know what you coin a liability. Fact is China is subsudizing the cost of oil to the people of China in driving up the world price. Canada is selling a 1 million barrels of oil a day to China at World Oil prices. 1 million * 140 = 140 Million dollars into the oil companies pocket.

Canadians consume 2.3 million Barrels of oil * 140 = 322 million dollars. Canada is pumping out 3 million barrels of oil a day for a value $420 million dollars worth of oil. The oil companies are getting their cake and eating it. Between the Oil being sold to Canadians and the oil sold on the open market, the oil companies are plundering Canada of 722 millions dollars every day. 3/4 of Billion dollars Everyday is being funneled into some oil companies pocket every day. Bear in mind This does not include the retail/refining markup on this oil. If there is gas tax revenues it would come on the retail end. If you people think really hard about it, Canada is forking out 722 million in dead money each day, before refining/retail end is injected into this figure.

According to an article I previously sited they stated it is costing Alberta $20 to extract oil from the oil sands. Oil extracted from oil platforms would certainly be way less. Canada's oil pumping of 3 million * 20 = 60 Million dollars of cost to extrac. The oil companies are raping Canada of $360 million dollars every day in profits!!!!!!!!!! from Canada's oil. Canada's corporate taxes are low, and harper wants to lower them more, so how is Canada benefiting from the raping of Canada. To add insult to this, Canadians are paying world oil prices for its oil consumption at a cost of $322 million.

Canada is transfering 682 million dollars of its wealth into the hands of oil companies everyday!!!!!! Now if Canada were to get its hands on its oil at $45 a barrel as I stated earlier Canada would be keeping its money in Canada and paying 103.5 million for the same oil. Canada would be preserving 1/2 Billion dollars of its wealth!!!!! keeping that money within Canada to be spent. What exactly is the oil companies giving Canada that we need to part with 1/2 billion dollars of our wealth every day??

The United States treats Canada like garbage. Canada is hollowed out by Foreign owned companies that toss people out of work the second profits soften to protect their bottom line. Canada needs to stop transfering its wealth to oil companies and look after itself first.

Those on this thread that are happy paying world oil prices because they like the tax revenue on the retail side is false logic. If you cost Canada's economy 1/2 billion in dead money to jack up retail gas prices to collect what amount of gas tax, Logic states you would need to deduct 1/2 billion from this Gas tax Figure to arrive at the net Gas tax benefit to Canada.

Someone is living the life at Canada's expense. If you honestly believe Canadians are benefiting show how. I am sure that $20 a barrel cost incorporates all the royalties being paid to alberta already. So really alberta is oblivious to the 1/2 Billion dollars being stripped from Canada each and every day. Whether Canadians get oil for $45 dollars a barrel or $140 dollars would not affect Alberta one bit.

Hydraboss · July 23, 2008

Canada has very, very little in the way of oil reserves.

Alberta, however, has vast amounts and the rest of the Canadian bloodsuckers should keep their minds occupied with what they DO own - Bombardier and Tim Hortons. If anything, the Alberta government should double or triple the sales cost of oil (taxes) and credit back Albertans on their tax returns. That way we remain prosperous and the everyone else can support our driving SUV's, boats and motorhomes. It's our resource, not yours. Remember, natural resources are the jurisdiction of the provinces not the federal government.