Fight the SPP / North American Union

Topaz · December 15, 2008

Thanks Topaz...as you know, Canadians are an important niche market for American print and broadcast media, and we appreciate your continued support. Look for more news about FEMA death camps and Tholian Lizard People in future shows.

BC let me asked you a question, if you read or heard on website back in 2000, that someone was going to run planes into a buidling in New York would you believe it?? I say you wouldn't but IF it had been on the NIGHTLY news you probably would have, right?

bush_cheney2004 · December 16, 2008

BC let me asked you a question, if you read or heard on website back in 2000, that someone was going to run planes into a buidling in New York would you believe it?? I say you wouldn't but IF it had been on the NIGHTLY news you probably would have, right?

Of course I would believe it...after all, "someone" tried to blow up the WTC with a truck bomb in 1993. The WTC airliner attack wasn't even original; the idea was seen in the early 1970's against Nixon and the White House:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Byck

Also, a B-25 Mitchell medium bomber collided with the Empire State Building in July 1945, which actually led to the Boeing 707 collision design spec for the WTC.

Smallc · December 16, 2008

which actually led to the Boeing 707 collision design spec for the WTC.

Too bad they never put as much thought into the fire that followed the collision.

bush_cheney2004 · December 16, 2008

Too bad they never put as much thought into the fire that followed the collision.

All designs are compromises....including open span floors in a high rise. Building codes are written in blood.

kimmy · December 17, 2008

BC let me asked you a question, if you read or heard on website back in 2000, that someone was going to run planes into a buidling in New York would you believe it?? I say you wouldn't but IF it had been on the NIGHTLY news you probably would have, right?

What bearing does that question have on the nonsense you guys have been peddling here?

"The NAU is happening! Look, the coins are already here!" ...except that the coins are novelty medallions being manufactured by Daniel Carr (that's President Daniel Carr to you.)

Or the young journalist in your video "blowing the lid off the New World Order" by pointing out that the phrase New World Order is in his text book. Or talking about how cell phones have been banned from his school to keep students from exposing "the truth", as if there were any possible truth worth exposing at Joseph P. McMullen Elementary school that "the Man" could possibly be concerned with.

Or, how many have there been in the past? Alex Jones posting the video of somebody wandering around an abandoned train station and talking about how it's a KBR "concentration camp". Or Alex Jones showing video footage of a SWAT team on a university campus to take out an armed suspect and narrating that fascist storm-troopers are on America's campuses to enforce UN-required one-world indoctrination? Or how when police were called to the elementary school to take a violent out-of-control child to social services, Alex Jones contended she was taken away to be a sex-slave for the pedophile elites of the world government. Or how Alex Jones and Forrest Mims III got that college professor detained by telling Homeland Security that his speech about the global population explosion was "a plot to kill 90% of the human race."

yep, something that nobody ever expected could happen tomorrow. But you guys are asking us to believe that these retards, Alex Jones and his kin, have the secret inside scoop on it. You guys want to have serious conversations about this stuff, but all that's ever brought forward for discussion is this idiocy.

-k

Oleg Bach · December 17, 2008

The only ones interested in a North American Union are usually strange socialist that believe "we are all one" - the others that push this idea are of the upper class legitimate gangster set. Men who seek to expand their enterprise to continental levels if not global - These last ones are not interested in what is good for the people...they are strickly interested in POWER.

Huston · December 18, 2008

But you guys are asking us to believe that these retards, Alex Jones and his kin, have the secret inside scoop on it.

Inside? He is? That is not what Alex Jones says. Oh well. Since when are conspiracies secret?

Topaz · December 18, 2008

From my understanding of how the NAU is to take place IF it is going to happen is the US and Canadians economies will tank and the US dollar will beome worthless. Now what happening with the US, its 9 trillion and growing debt, and Obama is going after another 800 Bil stimulus package, the war is costing a billions, and the fact they already printed up the 700 Bil to help Wall Street. Just keeping watching with an open mind.

Oleg Bach · December 18, 2008

From my understanding of how the NAU is to take place IF it is going to happen is the US and Canadians economies will tank and the US dollar will beome worthless. Now what happening with the US, its 9 trillion and growing debt, and Obama is going after another 800 Bil stimulus package, the war is costing a billions, and the fact they already printed up the 700 Bil to help Wall Street. Just keeping watching with an open mind.

It's either a very well orchestrated thing with an agenda - or it's just a total collapse of the system due to lack of wisdom and honour. I suspect there is no wizard behind the curtain - the whole mess might be on a kind of bio-auto-pilot. Keep an open mind if you will - but better to keep an open eye on any opportunists that will make things worse.

Huston · December 18, 2008

From my understanding of how the NAU is to take place IF it is going to happen is the US and Canadians economies will tank and the US dollar will beome worthless. Now what happening with the US, its 9 trillion and growing debt, and Obama is going after another 800 Bil stimulus package, the war is costing a billions, and the fact they already printed up the 700 Bil to help Wall Street. Just keeping watching with an open mind.

700billion.. umm, they have garuanteed 7.4 trillion. Or has it gone up to eight?

Michael Hardner · December 19, 2008

Inside? He is? That is not what Alex Jones says. Oh well. Since when are conspiracies secret?

These people - the coast-to-coast AM show - are a scourge on the concept of intelligence and clear thought.

NOW they're saying that 'Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind' (Close encounters of the third kind) was a documentary and that NASA wrote Spielberg a 20 page letter begging him to shelve the project.

UFO site

"I really found my faith when I heard that the Government was opposed to the film. (Close Encounters) If NASA took the time to write me a 20-page letter, then I knew there must be something happening. I had wanted cooperation from them, but when they read the script they got very angry and felt that it was a film that would be dangerous. I felt they mainly wrote the letter because JAWS convinced so many people around the world that there were sharks in toilets and bathtubs, not just in the oceans and rivers. They were afraid the same kind of epidemic would happen with UFOs." Steven Spielberg

White Doors · December 19, 2008

Personally, I think Alex Jones should be launching an investigation of this particularly disturbing phenomenon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sq-VmBMHkw

Like the lady says: This cannot be natural

kimmy · December 19, 2008

From my understanding of how the NAU is to take place IF it is going to happen is the US and Canadians economies will tank and the US dollar will beome worthless.

You are referring to Hal Turner's theory, yes?

700billion.. umm, they have garuanteed 7.4 trillion. Or has it gone up to eight?

Cite?

-k

Huston · December 19, 2008

Cite?
-k

Hmm, looks like it is 8 trillion.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/16620
It’s a package of about $8.7 trillion dollars’ worth of potential taxpayer commitments for loans, guarantees and other bailout goodies for businesses and distressed homeowners.

The Bloomburg 7.4 figure doesn't seem available at the moment. That was a couple of weeks ago.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Huston

kimmy · December 19, 2008

Personally, I think Alex Jones should be launching an investigation of this particularly disturbing phenomenon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sq-VmBMHkw

Like the lady says: This cannot be natural

:lol:

The chem-trail/orgone accumulator/David Icke set are so much more fun than the NWO types. Their theories are fun and fanciful and creative and just tug at my sense of whimsy. It has this exciting narrative that we live in this world surrounded by all of this advanced mind control technology and 12-foot-tall lizard overlords, that we're in this constant battle with unseen forces and we can protect ourselves using power-crystals and fight them using orgone weapons... and that soon the Star Angels will arrive, possibly led by Jesus himself, a UFO-pilot Jesus, who will overthrow the 12 foot tall lizards and restore justice and save us all.

-k

jbg · December 20, 2008

From my understanding of how the NAU is to take place IF it is going to happen....

And how are you going to get 2/3 of each house of Congress and 3/4 of the States, and comoply with whatever the Charter's amending formula is, when the Equal Rights Amendment (U.S.) didn't pass and Meech Lake didn't do much better?

GostHacked · December 20, 2008

Lou Dobbs, as crazy as he is at times has been reporting the NAU for a couple years now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNqkrzXUkwE...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kjsy2Z3kdI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvUnErDPHgM...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYGrn0hZlCQ...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy8r5yCLLj4...feature=related

kimmy · December 20, 2008

Lou Dobbs, as crazy as he is at times has been reporting the NAU for a couple years now.

Well, Lou Dobbs is a name that people recognize and he is on a big US TV network, so what he says must be pretty credible, right?

Well, as we go through these clips, why don't we spend some time to consider what he's actually saying, and whether it's credible.

I think that in each Lou Dobbs clip you've linked to, you'll find that the objective facts being presented do nothing to support any kind of claim of "erased borders" or "a threat to our sovereignty". The only parts that claim anything of the sort are sourced to "many people", or anonymous "critics", or "people" that Clifford Kincaid has heard talking.

I think that if you re-watch the videos with an eye towards considering where these claims of "a threat to our sovereignty" actually come from, you'll notice that the claim is not implied in any of the information being presented, but rather comes from Lou Dobbs himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNqkrzXUkwE...feature=related

Before we get to the content of this video, let's take a moment to consider the sources. And both of these guys have some obvious bias on the subject.

Lou Dobbs has been freaking out about Mexican immigrants for some time now.

Cliff Kincaid has been freaking out about the UN and multinational organizations for some time now. As far as I can tell, creating panic about America's sovereignty and flogging right-wing causes is Kincaid's full-time job.

So what does Kincaid actually have to say on the subject? After glossing over the obvious (NAFTA, the stated goals of the SPP) he goes on to claim that he has "heard people talk about things" like a unified North American legal system, and so on. He has "heard people talk about those things". WHAT PEOPLE?

"WOW", says Dobbs at each unsubstantiated claim. "That's astounding!"

Awesome journalism, Lou.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kjsy2Z3kdI

Completely typical piece. Weak news piece glosses over the stated goals of SPP, playing up crackpot concerns about "borders being erased" and all the while with the caption "WHY IS CONGRESS IGNORING A THREAT TO OUR SOVEREIGNTY?" on the screen. This is sheer comedy, folks, this is the kind of journalism they make fun of every night on "The Daily Show" and "The Colbert Report."

Then they turn the ball over to Lou Dobbs, who sputters furiously about "elites" and "multinational corporations" for a minute and a half. Well, we already know how Lou feels, but once again we are no wiser as to the legitimacy of any of these "concerns" about "borders being erased".

Ok, and this one starts with a big banner captioned "American Kleptocracy" beside Lou's head. This is off to a promising start.

Once again, 5 seconds in he talks about "many" who consider the SPP "a blueprint for the North American Union" and a "threat to our sovereignty", then heads out to a news piece about the then-upcoming meeting in Banff, and highlights an element of the plan which would see Canada and the US help fund infrastructure development in Mexico.

Well, American and Canadian people might not be excited about spending money to help Mexico build infrastructure. However, funding infrastructure improvements in another country happens all the time. The American and Canadian governments both spend billions of dollars a year on building infrastructure in other countries, in fact. It's not a threat to our sovereignty. Here is something for Lou to consider: maybe if Mexico had better infrastructure, there would be fewer of those scary scary scary immigrants streaming across the border each year.

btw I am apparently a "left wing activist" for not believing that the NAU is happening, according to Dobbs.

Trucks from Mexico will have expanded access to US highways. I only watched about 10 seconds of this one... unless Lou intends to argue that the trucks will be full of Mexican commandos, I have no idea how this relates to "a threat to American sovereignty" or "borders being erased".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvUnErDPHgM...feature=related

A compilation of some Lou Dobbs clips, including the earlier one about Mexican infrastructure. I'm spending more time on this than it deserves even without reruns. Let's move on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYGrn0hZlCQ...feature=related

Vincente Fox suggests that there is a long term possibility for some kind of EU-type arrangement, but that trade is what they are working on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy8r5yCLLj4...feature=related

Mitt Romney says that he would not participate in SPP if he became president. That's certainly a valid viewpoint. However, nothing in what he says actually does anything to support the claim that this is a plot to "erase the borders" or any such thing.

Guy on TV asserts that the Amero is already in progress... and invites us to "google it" to learn more. So I google it, all I find is the same paranoid claims from the same paranoid websites... so it's a circular argument.

-k

kimmy · December 20, 2008

Hmm, looks like it is 8 trillion.
The Bloomburg 7.4 figure doesn't seem available at the moment. That was a couple of weeks ago.

oh, ok. So what's the claim being made, then?

-k

Oleg Bach · December 20, 2008

Paranoid claims may just not be that paranoid. Look at the thirty million illegal immigrants that now inhabit, California, Texas and Arizona..why we have here are Mexican gangster families - the top most respected who run the government in Mexico - saying - we are real rich and we do not want to feed these useless slaves, we are done with them - They make a call and the boarder becomes like superfically secure but - I would say that 30 million getting through is done with intent...it's not an accident. Of course established crimminal enterprisers what to expand what they believe is their empire - Why would they not - ambition and power have no bounds or boundrys.

GostHacked · December 21, 2008

The chem-trail/orgone accumulator/David Icke set are so much more fun than the NWO types. Their theories are fun and fanciful and creative.....

Sounds about as crazy as Scientology, and we know those people exist.

ell, Lou Dobbs is a name that people recognize and he is on a big US TV network, so what he says must be pretty credible, right?
Well, as we go through these clips, why don't we spend some time to consider what he's actually saying, and whether it's credible.

I was trying to put forth the fact that the NAU is being talked about on MSM. Even if Lou is a little crazy himself, he is talking about it. Talking about it may not make it true, but not talking about it does not make it not true.

So what does Kincaid actually have to say on the subject? After glossing over the obvious (NAFTA, the stated goals of the SPP) he goes on to claim that he has "heard people talk about things" like a unified North American legal system, and so on. He has "heard people talk about those things". WHAT PEOPLE?

Anonymous sources are used all the time. Someone said, some people say, there are concerns about .. ect ect ... I overhead a person who may be close to the president ... blah blah blah. Lou Dobbs is not the only news show that is infected with that.

Trucks from Mexico will have expanded access to US highways. I only watched about 10 seconds of this one... unless Lou intends to argue that the trucks will be full of Mexican commandos, I have no idea how this relates to "a threat to American sovereignty" or "borders being erased".

It is more a threat to job security in the US. If you can hire cheap mexican truck drivers, that may not have trucks up to spec, then you don't need to pay the wage that an American gets. When this superhiway is built, expensive ports in the US can be avoided and brought in through cheap ports in Mexico, then using cheap mexican labour to drive it to the US and Canada.

With the experience the US and Canada have with jobs being outsourced and transfered altogether to another country, this is not much of a strech to imagine.

Vincente Fox suggests that there is a long term possibility for some kind of EU-type arrangement, but that trade is what they are working on.

It's on the radar for sure.

If the Europeaon Union and the African Union can exist, why is it such a stretch for people when it comes to the NAU? A mentality of 'not in my backyard'? Or that it is simply not possible?

kimmy · December 21, 2008

Sounds about as crazy as Scientology, and we know those people exist.

Yup. Scientology is obviously pretty bonkers too.

I started a thread a while back to discuss the issue of why people adopt seemingly strange beliefs a while back:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=6845

Religions and conspiracy theories have some of the same elements... they also have some differences.

I was trying to put forth the fact that the NAU is being talked about on MSM. Even if Lou is a little crazy himself, he is talking about it. Talking about it may not make it true, but not talking about it does not make it not true.

Not talking about it doesn't make it not true... but people talk about a lot of things, and most of it is bullshit.

You've got a guy who has rebuilt his media career by demonizing Mexican immigrants, pumping up this nightmare scenario where the border between Mexico and the United States is erased and there's nothing keeping all of those evil smelly Mexicans out anymore.

Why is he putting the "Why is congress ignoring a threat to our sovereignty?" caption on the screen in a segment that provides no evidence at all of any threat to Amercan sovereignty?

At what point does this stop being called "journalism" and start being called what it is?

Anonymous sources are used all the time. Someone said, some people say, there are concerns about .. ect ect ... I overhead a person who may be close to the president ... blah blah blah. Lou Dobbs is not the only news show that is infected with that.

And here you've got this guy who apparently makes a full-time job of raising paranoia about immigrants, and gays, and "world government", talking about how the SPP is actually a plot to integrate with Mexico and how there's even going to be a North American Court.

If I told you I'd heard that gasoline will be 30 cents a litre by next summer, you might be skeptical or interested, or maybe you'd be willing to consider that maybe I've actually got sources in the industry who are projecting this sort of thing, or maybe you'd just think I was pulling your leg.

Suppose I told you I'd heard gasoline will be 30 cents a litre by next summer, during a conversation in which I was trying to sell you a Hummer SUV that gets 3 miles per gallon. All of a sudden it's different, right? All of a sudden I've got a vested interest in making you believe that gas will be cheap in a few months. All of a sudden, I've got a real incentive to be telling you something false. Now how do you feel about my claim that gas is going to be cheap in a few months?

If somebody who opposed the firearms registry told you they'd heard there was a plan that every registered firearm was going to be seized by the police, would you believe this person had actually heard it from a credible source, or would you suspect they heard it from nutbars and was just repeating it because it suits his purpose?

What are the chances that these "people" Clifford Kincaid heard this from are a credible source of information?

And what are the chances that these "people" he's heard this from are just more cranks and that he's making the claim anyway because it suits his purposes?

It is more a threat to job security in the US. If you can hire cheap mexican truck drivers, that may not have trucks up to spec, then you don't need to pay the wage that an American gets. When this superhiway is built, expensive ports in the US can be avoided and brought in through cheap ports in Mexico, then using cheap mexican labour to drive it to the US and Canada.
With the experience the US and Canada have with jobs being outsourced and transfered altogether to another country, this is not much of a strech to imagine.

Ok, but the claim being made is that it's "a threat to our sovereignty", not that it's "a threat to American jobs".

Debate about whether multinational agreements like SPP (or NAFTA) are a threat to jobs or to the economic situation of the average man on the street are completely legitimate topics that SHOULD be discussed, and have been topics of heated debate for over 20 years.

But that's a completely separate issue from discussing whether this is a plot to erase borders and merge sovereign nations into a single entity.

It's on the radar for sure.
If the Europeaon Union and the African Union can exist, why is it such a stretch for people when it comes to the NAU? A mentality of 'not in my backyard'? Or that it is simply not possible?

Stuff could happen in the future. Obviously.

The EU... how many countries are there in Europe? they still have borders, right? They have their own laws and courts and law enforcement agencies, yes? Some of them didn't even adopt the Euro, kept their British pound for example. Even if things did eventually get to that state, it's a lot less scary than the fruitcakes are making it out to be. Was it done in secret? Did the people have no say? Research that as well... if the EU is supposed to be the example of how scary things could be, what exactly is the big panic anyway?

As for the African Union, I don't even think it's at that level. I think think it's an attempt to have African countries stop invading each other, stampeding refugees across each others' borders, provide peacekeepers, and generally speaking try and keep a handle on the chaos without Whitey getting involved. No common currency, no common courts, no borders being erased.

-k

speaker · December 22, 2008

But that's a completely separate issue from discussing whether this is a plot to erase borders and merge sovereign nations into a single entity.

It's not a completely separate issue. At some point in the regulation and harmonizing of economic, environmental, labour, and social standards, the differences have been legislated away. The points of Canadian worries about this are that we are different from other nations in the western hemisphere, and that the standards are not being harmonized upward.

QUOTE(GostHacked @ Dec 21 2008, 12:31 PM)

It's on the radar for sure.

If the Europeaon Union and the African Union can exist, why is it such a stretch for people when it comes to the NAU? A mentality of 'not in my backyard'? Or that it is simply not possible?

Stuff could happen in the future. Obviously.

The EU... how many countries are there in Europe? they still have borders, right? They have their own laws and courts and law enforcement agencies, yes? Some of them didn't even adopt the Euro, kept their British pound for example. Even if things did eventually get to that state, it's a lot less scary than the fruitcakes are making it out to be. Was it done in secret? Did the people have no say? Research that as well... if the EU is supposed to be the example of how scary things could be, what exactly is the big panic anyway?

In the European Union there is enough equality, and difference between, enough nations that there must be less fear of domination by a single entity.

The other point that gets dropped from the discussion from time to time is that this is less a harmonizing for national benefits than a harmonizing for corporate benefits. This is why we see corporate bag boys directing the regulation, without public input. It isn't so much a fight about the Americanization of Canada, or Mexico, as it is a fight over the corporate manhandling of the societies.

Edited December 22, 2008 by speaker

GostHacked · December 22, 2008

Kimmy.

Ignore the immigrant thing for now when it comes to Lou. That is not the point I was trying to make. I made it clear that it is being talked about on the MSM. That is a fact. Regardless of how he spins it (we know how the No-spinners work), it is being discussed.

Mexican trucks and sovereignty. Less good paying jobs for Americans. Less benefits they get, less money they can contribute back to the US in tax dollars. Less less less. This can lead to a threat to the US's soverignty. Its a strange connection, but it is there. Without the economic clout the US currently has, (and that seems to be fading fast) you can bet jobs are going to be outsourced or exported for cheap loabour abroad.

Coorporations have no problem outsourcing any american job overseas. If they save money, that is the bottom line. Gotta please those shareholders. This could lead to a threat to the American dream.

At what point does this stop being called "journalism" and start being called what it is?

Journalism and especially investigative journalism is for the most part...... dead. This applies to all forms of media.

And what are the chances that these "people" he's heard this from are just more cranks and that he's making the claim anyway because it suits his purposes?

I am not defending him. I am attacking all 'anonymous' sources.

Some people say...

Experts close to this person said....

A *.* watchdog thinktank predicts that ...

White House officials said.....

ect ect ect

Once you see all the news sources citing anonymous sources, they all loose credibility. Lou cannot be singled out for that. I mean, of you do, then you marginalize 99% of the news that is reported out there.

George Carlin.

"There is a reason they call it the American Dream. You must be asleep to believe it."