The False Left-Right Spectrum

[V for Vick]

Step back from the usual political banter for a bit. Do you see a trend in the type of policies that get implemented not only in Canada, but throughout the world? Why is it that the general trend in so many countries is towards more centralized government that restricts citizen rights coupled with more free trade that benefits large corporations?

The answer is that the left-right political spectrum is false. The true spectrum is between liberty and tyranny/fascism. You either have the liberty to decide how you want to live your own life, or you have mega-governments and mega-corporations dictating the terms of your life to you. So ask yourself: given the current state of politics, do you have more control of your life or less?

Liberty needs soverignty, independence, and self-reliance. We are exporting our jobs, we are losing our local family farms, we are losing control over our natural resources, we have already virtually lost control of our money supply. We are losing our liberty.

Have you heard of the Security and Prosperty Partnership, or the North American Union, or the Amero? The Liberals and Conservatives are BOTH selling out Canada's independence and soveriegnty WITHOUT voter approval or even voter consultation - and all of these secretive plans are dictated by large corporations for their own benefit. Most Canadians won't see any benefit from this, in fact our standard of living will go DOWN.

Find our about the CANADIAN ACTION PARTY (canadianactionparty.ca)

- Perserve Canadian Soverignty

- Implement Monetary Reform by using the Bank of Canada to fund programs without paying interest to private/foriegn banks

- Use Bank of Canada to lower tuition fees, invest in research and innovation, strenghen the Armed Forces

- Support local, organic, small farmers to make agriculture more sustainable

- Build a made-in-canada fleet of electric and hybrid cars to support our auto sector

- Invest in green technology to create cheap, reliable, and sustainable energy (instead of carbon taxes, and cap-and-trade)

- Use Bank of Canada to retire our national debt (stop needlessly paying over $30 billion a year in interest)

- Use Bank of Canada to create OUR OWN MONEY, INTEREST FREE

CANADIAN ACTION PARTY (canadianactionparty.ca)

[Michael Hardner]

Step back from the usual political banter for a bit. Do you see a trend in the type of policies that get implemented not only in Canada, but throughout the world? Why is it that the general trend in so many countries is towards more centralized government that restricts citizen rights coupled with more free trade that benefits large corporations?

We have also seen taxes downloaded too, which is decentralization. And we have seen certain powers in Canada go to the regions, such as Quebec. And Free Trade weakens the power of governments to add tariffs.

The answer is that the left-right political spectrum is false. The true spectrum is between liberty and tyranny/fascism. You either have the liberty to decide how you want to live your own life, or you have mega-governments and mega-corporations dictating the terms of your life to you. So ask yourself: given the current state of politics, do you have more control of your life or less?

Liberty needs soverignty, independence, and self-reliance. We are exporting our jobs, we are losing our local family farms, we are losing control over our natural resources, we have already virtually lost control of our money supply. We are losing our liberty.

Have you heard of the Security and Prosperty Partnership, or the North American Union, or the Amero? The Liberals and Conservatives are BOTH selling out Canada's independence and soveriegnty WITHOUT voter approval or even voter consultation - and all of these secretive plans are dictated by large corporations for their own benefit. Most Canadians won't see any benefit from this, in fact our standard of living will go DOWN.

Find our about the CANADIAN ACTION PARTY (canadianactionparty.ca)

- Perserve Canadian Soverignty

- Implement Monetary Reform by using the Bank of Canada to fund programs without paying interest to private/foriegn banks

- Use Bank of Canada to lower tuition fees, invest in research and innovation, strenghen the Armed Forces

- Support local, organic, small farmers to make agriculture more sustainable

- Build a made-in-canada fleet of electric and hybrid cars to support our auto sector

- Invest in green technology to create cheap, reliable, and sustainable energy (instead of carbon taxes, and cap-and-trade)

- Use Bank of Canada to retire our national debt (stop needlessly paying over $30 billion a year in interest)

- Use Bank of Canada to create OUR OWN MONEY, INTEREST FREE

CANADIAN ACTION PARTY (canadianactionparty.ca)

From the SPP website:

The Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP) was launched in March of 2005 as a trilateral effort to increase security and enhance prosperity among the United States, Canada and Mexico through greater cooperation and information sharing.

This trilateral initiative is premised on our security and our economic prosperity being mutually reinforcing. The SPP recognizes that our three great nations are bound by a shared belief in freedom, economic opportunity, and strong democratic institutions.

The SPP provides the framework to ensure that North America is the safest and best place to live and do business. It includes ambitious security and prosperity programs to keep our borders closed to terrorism yet open to trade.

The SPP builds upon, but is separate from, our long-standing trade and economic relationships. It energizes other aspects of our cooperative relations, such as the protection of our environment, our food supply, and our public health.

What is wrong with these goals ?

[GostHacked]

This sounds like an advertizement for the party. This reads like spam. Like another left-right party will actually get in the mix enough.

[eyeball]

What is wrong with these goals ?

Nothing, on the face of them. The problem is that people don't trust the governments and politicians that are negotiating the SPP anymore than they trust the people and institutions that negotiated things like the WTO or IMF.

I agree with Vicks main thrust that corporations dominate the governments agenda and that the real dichotomy in our society is the one between the governed and the government. The struggle along the left/right spectrum or axis is nowhere near as important as the one brewing on the libertarian/authoritarian axis.

A recent poll on how Canadians feel underscores the growing demand for transparency and I suspect these sorts of numbers exist throughout much of the world.

Satisfaction with government integrity fell 10 points, with just 27 percent saying the Conservatives are doing a good job in this regard, while 65 percent said they are doing a "bad job" on accountability.

Source

[V for Vick]

Michael Hardner

Like I said, the general trend we are seeing is more government centralization; what I mean is more government control over our lives, and less say for Canadians. Many observers of Canadian Politics agree that over the recent decades power has been centralized within the PMO to the extent that the Prime Minister and his inner circle essentially run the show.

And what is wrong with the SPP?

If you want to find fault with the SPP, dont' look at the official website!!! The main glaring fault is that NONE of this was discussed during elections, and people did not give the government authority to go ahead with it. The SPP is NAFTA on steroids, it is the poltical and economic integration of North America. Our forefathers faught in 1812, Vimy Ridge, and many other battles to keep our independence, and these politicians are JUST GIVING IT AWAY!!!!

Another glaring fault is that the main drivers behind the SPP are mega-corporations. Indeed, a team of 48 corporations (16 from each country) are currently rewriting many of our regulations pertaining to just about everything, to suit their profit motives. What Canadians want is not being considered.

Have you heard of the NAFTA superhighway? It is currently underway, and it is linked with the SPP, and no one is telling the Canadian people about it, except for the Canadian Action Party. The superhighway, will go from Mexico to Canada; basically, cheap goods from China will arrive in Mexico, Mexicans will get the jobs for loading, transporting, and assembling the goods since their wages are much lower. The goods will then flood the US and Canadian Markets.

THE END RESULT WILL BE FURTHER LOSSES OF OUR HIGH PAYING JOBS, AND FURTHER LOWERING OF OUR STANDARD OF LIVING

CANADIAN ACTION PARTY (canadianactionparty.ca)

[Michael Hardner]

eyeball

Nothing, on the face of them. The problem is that people don't trust the governments and politicians that are negotiating the SPP anymore than they trust the people and institutions that negotiated things like the WTO or IMF.

So what do we do about this ?

Should governments cease operation until people trust them again ?

I agree with Vicks main thrust that corporations dominate the governments agenda and that the real dichotomy in our society is the one between the governed and the government. The struggle along the left/right spectrum or axis is nowhere near as important as the one brewing on the libertarian/authoritarian axis.

I would say that the struggle should be positioned as intellectual/emotive arguments.

We got to this point in our history with the greatest advances happening in an era of healthy political discourse and intellectual discussion governing technological and social progress unlike any other era.

The axis you mention is divisive, with one person belonging to one group or another. Every person belongs to both groups with my axis.

A recent poll on how Canadians feel underscores the growing demand for transparency and I suspect these sorts of numbers exist throughout much of the world.

QUOTE

Satisfaction with government integrity fell 10 points, with just 27 percent saying the Conservatives are doing a good job in this regard, while 65 percent said they are doing a "bad job" on accountability.

That poll is cracked. It's an ONLINE poll done by something called www.chinaview.cn. Plus it speaks about the Conservative government not government in general. I'm not disputing you're right in saying that confidence in government is declining, but I'm saying that this source isn't a good one.

I know your solution for improving integrity is to electronically monitor all government ministers and I don't think that that's practical.

[Topaz]

Michael Hardner

Like I said, the general trend we are seeing is more government centralization; what I mean is more government control over our lives, and less say for Canadians. Many observers of Canadian Politics agree that over the recent decades power has been centralized within the PMO to the extent that the Prime Minister and his inner circle essentially run the show.

And what is wrong with the SPP?

If you want to find fault with the SPP, dont' look at the official website!!! The main glaring fault is that NONE of this was discussed during elections, and people did not give the government authority to go ahead with it. The SPP is NAFTA on steroids, it is the poltical and economic integration of North America. Our forefathers faught in 1812, Vimy Ridge, and many other battles to keep our independence, and these politicians are JUST GIVING IT AWAY!!!!

Another glaring fault is that the main drivers behind the SPP are mega-corporations. Indeed, a team of 48 corporations (16 from each country) are currently rewriting many of our regulations pertaining to just about everything, to suit their profit motives. What Canadians want is not being considered.

Have you heard of the NAFTA superhighway? It is currently underway, and it is linked with the SPP, and no one is telling the Canadian people about it, except for the Canadian Action Party. The superhighway, will go from Mexico to Canada; basically, cheap goods from China will arrive in Mexico, Mexicans will get the jobs for loading, transporting, and assembling the goods since their wages are much lower. The goods will then flood the US and Canadian Markets.

THE END RESULT WILL BE FURTHER LOSSES OF OUR HIGH PAYING JOBS, AND FURTHER LOWERING OF OUR STANDARD OF LIVING

CANADIAN ACTION PARTY (canadianactionparty.ca)

I was listening on the radio and what was being said was that European investors or companies are paying for that highway and when its done you'll have to pay tolls which will go back to where....Europe! I can't see it working on the Mexico /US sides. Right now US/ Canandian truckers won't go into Mexico because they either have their truck stolen or they are shot, so mexican truckers bring the goods across then US/Canadians take them from there.

[Michael Hardner]

Vick,

Michael Hardner

Like I said, the general trend we are seeing is more government centralization; what I mean is more government control over our lives, and less say for Canadians. Many observers of Canadian Politics agree that over the recent decades power has been centralized within the PMO to the extent that the Prime Minister and his inner circle essentially run the show.

Right. I got that, and provided you with counter examples that you have ignored so I guess the point I made stands.

And what is wrong with the SPP?

If you want to find fault with the SPP, dont' look at the official website!!! The main glaring fault is that NONE of this was discussed during elections, and people did not give the government authority to go ahead with it. The SPP is NAFTA on steroids, it is the poltical and economic integration of North America. Our forefathers faught in 1812, Vimy Ridge, and many other battles to keep our independence, and these politicians are JUST GIVING IT AWAY!!!!

They don't discuss these things during elections unless they're big changes, such as the initial FTA.

Another glaring fault is that the main drivers behind the SPP are mega-corporations. Indeed, a team of 48 corporations (16 from each country) are currently rewriting many of our regulations pertaining to just about everything, to suit their profit motives. What Canadians want is not being considered.

Do you want small business to guide the discussion behind international cooperation in trade ? I think that the governments are driving the discussions, myself, in order to improve regional trade. And, yes, this is to suit profit motives (the second P stands for prosperity, so that isn't a big secret) and improve the economy for all.

Have you heard of the NAFTA superhighway? It is currently underway, and it is linked with the SPP, and no one is telling the Canadian people about it, except for the Canadian Action Party. The superhighway, will go from Mexico to Canada; basically, cheap goods from China will arrive in Mexico, Mexicans will get the jobs for loading, transporting, and assembling the goods since their wages are much lower. The goods will then flood the US and Canadian Markets.

THE END RESULT WILL BE FURTHER LOSSES OF OUR HIGH PAYING JOBS, AND FURTHER LOWERING OF OUR STANDARD OF LIVING

CANADIAN ACTION PARTY (canadianactionparty.ca)

This is called Globalization. Yes, it forces us to compete internationally and we will need to do this in order to be able to export to other nations. This initiative might help Canada improve their productivity. Will it cause pain ? Of course it will. There will be job losses, failed companies and pain felt everywhere.

If that's the real debate here, then let's talk about Globalization and whether we want THAT. A road improvement project doesn't seem to be enough for me to oppose SPP.

If it's about Globalization, then why doesn't your CAP just position themselves clearly as an anti-Globalization party ?

Instead, they paint the SPP as a dark plot and appeal to dark emotional territory among the northern shivering fearful...

[V for Vick]

I was listening on the radio and what was being said was that European investors or companies are paying for that highway and when its done you'll have to pay tolls which will go back to where....Europe! I can't see it working on the Mexico /US sides. Right now US/ Canandian truckers won't go into Mexico because they either have their truck stolen or they are shot, so mexican truckers bring the goods across then US/Canadians take them from there.

Topaz, the US, in Sept. 2007, already allows Mexican truckers to bring goods into the US. Sure, American truckers can also go into Mexico, of course most of the traffic is one-way. Mexican truckers work for far less money, which puts American truckers out of work.

For more check out this Lou Dobbs report

[Michael Hardner]

I was listening on the radio and what was being said was that European investors or companies are paying for that highway and when its done you'll have to pay tolls which will go back to where....Europe! I can't see it working on the Mexico /US sides. Right now US/ Canandian truckers won't go into Mexico because they either have their truck stolen or they are shot, so mexican truckers bring the goods across then US/Canadians take them from there.

Topaz,

You heard that on the radio did you ? Must be true then. Can you please connect the dots on this theory ? I can only find spooky conspiracy sites that mention the NAFTA superhighway and the European Union.

We seem to be seeing an unholy alliance of anti-internationalism evolving now on web boards, between fearful arch-conservatives and arch-nationalists on the left.

[Michael Hardner]

Topaz, the US, in Sept. 2007, already allows Mexican truckers to bring goods into the US. Sure, American truckers can also go into Mexico, of course most of the traffic is one-way. Mexican truckers work for far less money, which puts American truckers out of work.

Yes, Vick and the costs of transportation fall as a result. The extra money saved goes into the economy in new ways.

[V for Vick]

Yes, Vick and the costs of transportation fall as a result. The extra money saved goes into the economy in new ways.

Sigh, can't you see that when we have a free-trade deal with a country that has a per capita income the fraction of our own, that it will lower our per capita income over time? The only way we will be able to compete with Mexico, China, and India is if we lower our wages and our standard of living.

This isn't about anti-internationalism - it is about preserving the ability for Canadians to choose our own destiny, and for making trade deals that benefit Canadians, not multi-national corporations owned by a small minority of people.

[Michael Hardner]

Vic,

Sigh, can't you see that when we have a free-trade deal with a country that has a per capita income the fraction of our own, that it will lower our per capita income over time? The only way we will be able to compete with Mexico, China, and India is if we lower our wages and our standard of living.

I don't think that's clear. Certainly the economics don't clearly say that it works that way.

This isn't about anti-internationalism - it is about preserving the ability for Canadians to choose our own destiny, and for making trade deals that benefit Canadians, not multi-national corporations owned by a small minority of people.

To choose their own destiny by not trading with other countries. That to me isn't choosing destiny, but isolating oneself and saying I'd rather play ball with my own kind.

Don't you think Canadians benefit from lower prices and increased choice ?

[V for Vick]

Trade is good, but not all trade is equal. Good trade allows us to import goods we cannot produce on our own, or can not efficient produce (pineapples, oranges ect). Canadian Action Party fully supports trade that benefits Canadians

Bad trade destroys our domestic industries by flooding our market with cheap goods coming from countries with the only economic advantage being that they work for pennies an hour. Look at our auto sector, there are job losses almost every week! All the auto jobs are going to Mexico because they are willing to work for less.

Meanwhile, we are told that we will survive with a 'service industry' - that is crazy. To have a strong economy we need to produce commodities of value, not just trade services with each other.

National defense is another huge consideration. With much of our food and manufacturing production moving to other countries, we lose our ability to fend for ourselves. What if a war happens? Do we import everything? That is suicidal.

[bush_cheney2004]

Bad trade destroys our domestic industries by flooding our market with cheap goods coming from countries with the only economic advantage being that they work for pennies an hour. Look at our auto sector, there are job losses almost every week! All the auto jobs are going to Mexico because they are willing to work for less.

Then of course you were not in favor of relocating thousands of US automotive jobs to Canada?

Meanwhile, we are told that we will survive with a 'service industry' - that is crazy. To have a strong economy we need to produce commodities of value, not just trade services with each other.

Canada does produce commodities of value. Have you checked the price of oil futures lately?

National defense is another huge consideration. With much of our food and manufacturing production moving to other countries, we lose our ability to fend for ourselves. What if a war happens? Do we import everything? That is suicidal.

Canada has always relied on mutual defense, and always will. It cannot defend itself unilaterally, or afford to build weapons systems to do so.

Edited May 31, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

Vick,

Trade is good, but not all trade is equal. Good trade allows us to import goods we cannot produce on our own, or can not efficient produce (pineapples, oranges ect). Canadian Action Party fully supports trade that benefits Canadians

Then they should support Globalization.

Bad trade destroys our domestic industries by flooding our market with cheap goods coming from countries with the only economic advantage being that they work for pennies an hour. Look at our auto sector, there are job losses almost every week! All the auto jobs are going to Mexico because they are willing to work for less.

Right. And the countries that we're trading with reduce tariffs on Canadian goods too. This allows for specialization, which is a central plank of economic efficiency.

Meanwhile, we are told that we will survive with a 'service industry' - that is crazy. To have a strong economy we need to produce commodities of value, not just trade services with each other.

Canada has plenty of commodities.

National defense is another huge consideration. With much of our food and manufacturing production moving to other countries, we lose our ability to fend for ourselves. What if a war happens? Do we import everything? That is suicidal.

We're training foreign troops on our soil now. If that's not an advertising that the military has devolved into a service industry, then I don't know what is.

If you're considering future wars, who do you think they'll be against ? Certainly not the US. In any case, we could never base our planning on such an idea. We would be spending an unrealistic amount of our GDP on military then...

[V for Vick]

Michael Hardner, your views and the establishment policies are turning a once independent nation into merely sub-nation in a world grid operated by the elites. Good job on selling out your country, your forefathers will be proud of you

[Michael Hardner]

Vic,

Michael Hardner, your views and the establishment policies are turning a once independent nation into merely sub-nation in a world grid operated by the elites. Good job on selling out your country, your forefathers will be proud of you tongue.gif

While I agree that nations in general are less independent than ever, that doesn't make Canada unique. In fact it bodes well for the future if Canada, the US, Europe and Asia are so inter-dependent that war is unthinkable.

I don't believe in countries, really. They are in reality a fairly recent construct, and are generally only used to rouse emotions as you have done.

Why should I feel kinship with somebody from thousands of miles away versus somebody right over the border from me ?

[V for Vick]

I don't believe in countries, really. They are in reality a fairly recent construct, and are generally only used to rouse emotions as you have done.

I believe in myself, and I want to live my life as independently and freely as possible. In an inter-connected world that is very difficult because the same system is being applied all over the world. Nation-states allows one much more control over one's own destiny. If you don't like one country, you can move to another.

Also, in a globalized system, your individual vote is pretty much meaningless. However, I support more localized politics and economics so that your say actually matters. Even still, I try to rely on myself as much as I can.

[Michael Hardner]

Vic,

I believe in myself, and I want to live my life as independently and freely as possible. In an inter-connected world that is very difficult because the same system is being applied all over the world. Nation-states allows one much more control over one's own destiny. If you don't like one country, you can move to another.

Except, in the era of nations that is a lot harder to do. Immigration is increasing now exactly as a result of Globalization.

Also, in a globalized system, your individual vote is pretty much meaningless. However, I support more localized politics and economics so that your say actually matters. Even still, I try to rely on myself as much as I can.

Localized is good, and makes a lot more sense than national boundries to me. What exactly connects me to someone in Selkirk Manitoba, other than reading their rants on a web board versus somebody in Niagara Falls, NY, who is frequently trading with me ?

Relying on yourself is good, but a strong community should be there for you when you fall. Oops, sorry I should have said if.

[V for Vick]

Localized is good, and makes a lot more sense than national boundries to me.

Great, we can agree on that at least. Wouldn't you also agree that our current trend is drifting away from localized politics and economics. We need to get back to local farming and local industries (as much as possible), so that we have more control over our own destinies.

Currently, we are specializing and outsourcing - we hardly have any more connection to our own local communities. How many of the products (or even foods) are grown in your local area?

[Michael Hardner]

Great, we can agree on that at least. Wouldn't you also agree that our current trend is drifting away from localized politics and economics. We need to get back to local farming and local industries (as much as possible), so that we have more control over our own destinies.

No, not at all. Local farming is expensive. Large scale farming can make food that is much cheaper, although people need to ensure that quality is there.

I'm not interested in paying twice as much to protect some mythical idea of the farmer. He doesn't seem interested in what's happening in my industry either, by the way.

Currently, we are specializing and outsourcing - we hardly have any more connection to our own local communities. How many of the products (or even foods) are grown in your local area?

None, and thank God. I live in Toronto. Who would want a carrot covered in soot ?

By the way, if we're going to rely on Canadian grown food, that's pretty limiting. Specialization and trade increase economic efficiencies. Yes, there are costs, but there are also benefits. The assembly line made factory work monotonous but it lowered costs and made Henry Ford rich.

[Pliny]

Great, we can agree on that at least. Wouldn't you also agree that our current trend is drifting away from localized politics and economics. We need to get back to local farming and local industries (as much as possible), so that we have more control over our own destinies.

Currently, we are specializing and outsourcing - we hardly have any more connection to our own local communities. How many of the products (or even foods) are grown in your local area?

You are not a Capitalist, Vic. Capitalism calls for co-operation. You are talking about regulation and enforcement.

[kuzadd]

Vic,

While I agree that nations in general are less independent than ever, that doesn't make Canada unique. In fact it bodes well for the future if Canada, the US, Europe and Asia are so inter-dependent that war is unthinkable.

he US, Europe and Asia are so inter-dependent that war is unthinkable.

what a myth, and utter nonsense, I can't even believe you would utter that!

war, will be unthinkable because of interdependance?

laughable.

what is guerilla warfare?

You are also missing the fact that without numerous nation states, we could possibly subjected to tyranny on a large global scale, and if let's say a tyrant, takes power, in a global type government, what chance is there, that other nation states can oust a tyrant, if there are no other states?

Edited June 1, 2008 by kuzadd

[margrace]

Right from the start it has been my fear that we are creating a position where one person or group becomes tyrants and the rest of us merely slaves. While, in theory, Globalization sounds good, it is very scarry. We all need to have some control over our destinies. We have fought long and hard to get rid of the idea of the devine right of Kings and now people want to sell us out for their own benefit. Democaracy is a hard fight and we need to fight for it daily, not let compacency and the lure of the almighty dollar become our goal.