The False Left-Right Spectrum

[Michael Hardner]

Sure, margrace, but you're pre-supposing that "my" destiny is somehow wrapped up with an Albertan's.

kuzad,

what a myth, and utter nonsense, I can't even believe you would utter that!

war, will be unthinkable because of interdependance?

laughable.

what is guerilla warfare?

That last question doesn't follow from what you said above. Guerilla warfare is a form of warfare.

I'm talking about the present state of affairs, whereby nations still exist... present day... 2008.

Yes, it's unthinkable for close economic partners to declare war on each other. The US owns so much of Canada that it would be declaring war against itself in many respects.

You are also missing the fact that without numerous nation states, we could possibly subjected to tyranny on a large global scale, and if let's say a tyrant, takes power, in a global type government, what chance is there, that other nation states can oust a tyrant, if there are no other states?

There are many ways for humans to organize themselves to resist tyranny. We have done so in Canada by using political processes and institutions and we have been successful. We also decentralize power for certain things when it makes sense to do so. I would imagine that such things could be made to work on a Global scale.

We don't seem to worry about neighbouring counties in Ontario declaring war on each other...

[eyeball]

That poll is cracked. It's an ONLINE poll done by something called www.chinaview.cn. Plus it speaks about the Conservative government not government in general. I'm not disputing you're right in saying that confidence in government is declining, but I'm saying that this source isn't a good one.

No its not, its a report of a poll just done by Harris Decima.

http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/at_i...niers_wake.html

Here you can get it fromn the horses mouth himself. Its just a few minutes into this At Issue podcast. Your quibbling over my source underscores just how divided people are. You don't trust me and I don't trust you. Mind you I don't trust anything or anyone anymore other than my very closest friends and family.

I know your solution for improving integrity is to electronically monitor all government ministers and I don't think that that's practical.

Compared to what? It wasn't that long ago that people believed the fear of God's punishment was all that was required to keep the powerful and wealthy people who were in charge of society in line. It wasn't that long ago that a Canadian PM's was reminded that his own immortal soul was in peril.

Its probably not practical to expect government ministers, especially Harper's, to ever submit to real transparency. I think the only hope will be if politicians emerge who volunteer to be wired that or some really talented ethical hackers find a way to infiltrate the firewall of secrecy the government has constructed around itself. Otherwise watch as disengagment and fear and loathing increase.

[Michael Hardner]

e-ball,

No its not, its a report of a poll just done by Harris Decima.

http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/at_i...niers_wake.html

Here you can get it fromn the horses mouth himself. Its just a few minutes into this At Issue podcast. Your quibbling over my source underscores just how divided people are. You don't trust me and I don't trust you. Mind you I don't trust anything or anyone anymore other than my very closest friends and family.

Sorry, you're right. I missed that. Still, it's an online poll so I still quibble it.

I don't trust you, nor should I. There are institutions that are there to solve that problem.

QUOTE

I know your solution for improving integrity is to electronically monitor all government ministers and I don't think that that's practical.

Compared to what? It wasn't that long ago that people believed the fear of God's punishment was all that was required to keep the powerful and wealthy people who were in charge of society in line. It wasn't that long ago that a Canadian PM's was reminded that his own immortal soul was in peril.

Its probably not practical to expect government ministers, especially Harper's, to ever submit to real transparency. I think the only hope will be if politicians emerge who volunteer to be wired that or some really talented ethical hackers find a way to infiltrate the firewall of secrecy the government has constructed around itself. Otherwise watch as disengagment and fear and loathing increase.

Compared to what ? I don't have to compare it to anything. It's not practical and it wouldn't work.

The weird thing, eb, is that governments of the past worked without such technologies. Why do you think that is so ?

[eyeball]

e-ball,

Sorry, you're right. I missed that. Still, it's an online poll so I still quibble it.

I don't trust you, nor should I. There are institutions that are there to solve that problem.

That fewer and fewer people trust anymore.

Compared to what ? I don't have to compare it to anything. It's not practical and it wouldn't work.

The weird thing, eb, is that governments of the past worked without such technologies. Why do you think that is so ?

Most of them truely believed they were being watched by God and would therefore face judgement. If they knew they were being watched by us they would probably start behaving themselves again. Its that simple.

An MP wearing something like a Bobby-cam might be a stretch in practice but certainly not in theory. I'm sure we could monitor politicians withut following them into bathrooms and such but I submit that it is only their fear of being found out will ever check their abuses of power and influence.

The visual evidence of crimes meant that it was well-nigh impossible for the perpetrators to get away with it, as was frequently the case.

Bobby-Cams

[DangerMouse]

To me it's all crap! Everybody except natives are running around with dollar signs buggin out of their eyeballs and are out to use everybody they can in this plastic, shallow-phony world. Which begs the question, with such narrowminded phoniness, what is the glue that holds the shallow rightwing element together? Knowing tht you just use and will stab your socalled friends in the back--buy lots of insurance for your socalled loved ones with a scotty petersen lurking underneath

[Michael Hardner]

Most of them truely believed they were being watched by God and would therefore face judgement. If they knew they were being watched by us they would probably start behaving themselves again. Its that simple.

An MP wearing something like a Bobby-cam might be a stretch in practice but certainly not in theory. I'm sure we could monitor politicians withut following them into bathrooms and such but I submit that it is only their fear of being found out will ever check their abuses of power and influence.

EB,

But yet, there were also periods of time when there was religion and yet there was also corruption.

[eyeball]

And look at what happened to the institution of religion in the public's domain. When people learned they couldn't trust or rely on the institution of religion it pretty much became irrelevent and was discarded.

Governments will follow soon enough because we still have the corruption. Yes there has been a period of social advancement in spite of that corruption but again I think this is more a result of having a large world that was rich in natural capital. Enough people could move away from the worst the world had to offer in hopes of finding or building something better.

Now that the water-hole is getting smaller the animals will get meaner, and the meanest ones of all will be hiding behind their walls of secrecy, priviledge and power. If we are to survive as one undivided society that is more or less on the same page, axis or spectrum, we are going to need an undivided polity that is as transparent to one as it is to all. We are as far away from this as we have ever been, especially under Stephan Harper as far as this country is concerned.

[Michael Hardner]

EB,

And look at what happened to the institution of religion in the public's domain. When people learned they couldn't trust or rely on the institution of religion it pretty much became irrelevent and was discarded.

The decline of religion is a huge topic best left for another thread. People stopped trusting it during the Reformation, and didn't abandon it but formed breakaway religions.

Governments will follow soon enough because we still have the corruption. Yes there has been a period of social advancement in spite of that corruption but again I think this is more a result of having a large world that was rich in natural capital. Enough people could move away from the worst the world had to offer in hopes of finding or building something better.

I don't know if corruption is as much a problem as plain old decay, as happens with all huge, static institutions.

Now that the water-hole is getting smaller the animals will get meaner, and the meanest ones of all will be hiding behind their walls of secrecy, priviledge and power. If we are to survive as one undivided society that is more or less on the same page, axis or spectrum, we are going to need an undivided polity that is as transparent to one as it is to all. We are as far away from this as we have ever been, especially under Stephan Harper as far as this country is concerned.

More pessimism. I would say that the divisions are more in the way we see things than in the way things actually are.

In the 1970s you had an NDP that wanted to nationalize everything. The Conservatives wanted to eliminate the deficit and the Liberals were building up government institutions. Today, you have parties that copy each others' policies, and can only distinguish their "brand" through the personality of the leader. And yet we seem farther apart on politics than we ever were.

I think we need to realize that we're all fighting more, over less. We need to understand that Government's role is mostly agreed upon, and we need to create institutions to manage the tasks and services that government needs to oversee. There are already institutions in society that do this, and we should copy them.

Then, we can leave government to talking about the big changes, the big challenges and the big ideas.

[eyeball]

EB,

The decline of religion is a huge topic best left for another thread. People stopped trusting it during the Reformation, and didn't abandon it but formed breakaway religions.

I don't know if corruption is as much a problem as plain old decay, as happens with all huge, static institutions.

More pessimism. I would say that the divisions are more in the way we see things than in the way things actually are.

In the 1970s you had an NDP that wanted to nationalize everything. The Conservatives wanted to eliminate the deficit and the Liberals were building up government institutions. Today, you have parties that copy each others' policies, and can only distinguish their "brand" through the personality of the leader. And yet we seem farther apart on politics than we ever were.

I think we need to realize that we're all fighting more, over less. We need to understand that Government's role is mostly agreed upon, and we need to create institutions to manage the tasks and services that government needs to oversee. There are already institutions in society that do this, and we should copy them.

Then, we can leave government to talking about the big changes, the big challenges and the big ideas.

I agree that most people already understand what the role of government should be and beyond my idea of monitoring cabinet ministers I don't think there are any new big ideas on governance, as Andrew Coyne also says in the podcast I linked to above.

I just posted this here and its just as appropriate for this thread - there is no legal definition of corruption in Canada so you can't just charge a politician with it. Corruption is more like a state of being or a field. A story in the G&M a few months ago quoted a lawyer speaking on behalf of a legal society or organization based in Ottawa who defined official or political corruption as being characterized by secrecy with a marked intent to deceive.

Instead of an Accountability Act we should have a Transparency Act. In addition to a Privacy Commisioner we should have a Secrecy or Anti-Secrecy Commisioner. Checking the ability of the government to operate in secrecy should be in the interest of all people. Unfortunately some people think we have enough transparency and some think we don't. Its very discouraging that the line dividing these also runs close to the line that divides the right-wing from the left. I suppose this must bode well for somebody somewhere.

I agree we need new institutions but above all else and to paraphrase you, we need an institution to better oversee how the government manages the tasks and services that we need.

[Michael Hardner]

I agree we need new institutions but above all else and to paraphrase you, we need an institution to better oversee how the government manages the tasks and services that we need.

EB,

What would you think of spinning them off as Crown Corporations and letting them manage their own affairs at arm's length ? The government could continue to institute changes in policy and legislate how EI is managed, for example, but the actual management would be done by managers and not deputy ministers.

[eyeball]

Spinning what off, the insititution responsible for oversight?

[M.Dancer]

Sigh, can't you see that when we have a free-trade deal with a country that has a per capita income the fraction of our own, that it will lower our per capita income over time? The only way we will be able to compete with Mexico, China, and India is if we lower our wages and our standard of living.

That is of course, nonsense. Put it this way....in India and Mexixo there are two tin foil hat wearing nervous types...one just said to the other....

"Sigh, can't you see that when we have a free-trade deal with a country that has a per capita literacy rate 100 times our own and more engineers than you can throw a stick at, that it will raise our education rates over time? The only way we will be able to compete with Canada, USA, and Japan is if we raise our education and our standard of living..."

Edited June 2, 2008 by M.Dancer

[M.Dancer]

It's not surprising that the Canadian Action Party woiuld want to attact new members by floating hairbrained crackpot tinfoilism....consider their former leader, John Hellyer.

John Hellyer was unti recently best known for single handedly destroying the moral of Canada's fighting forces through unification duringf his tenure as minister of destroying defense under Trudeau....

Then he came out and said he believes the Roswell conspiracies and that aliaens visits us from other planets..........

He believes that various gov'ts ae withholding alien technology that would solve among other things, global warming.

[Pliny]

To me it's all crap! Everybody except natives are running around with dollar signs buggin out of their eyeballs and are out to use everybody they can in this plastic, shallow-phony world.

Are you a native or are you an everybody?

If you are native, excluding yourself from "everybody", then you must dislike everybody. Is that what natives are doing - disliking everybody?

[segnosaur]

It's not surprising that the Canadian Action Party woiuld want to attact new members by floating hairbrained crackpot tinfoilism....consider their former leader, John Hellyer.

Shouldn't that be Paul Hellyer? (Not that it really matters...)

Then he came out and said he believes the Roswell conspiracies and that aliaens visits us from other planets..........

Don't forget the current Canada Action Party has actually expressed belief in various 9/11 conspiracy theories.

http://canadianactionparty.ca/911.htm

[Michael Hardner]

Oh my. That's a terrible shame to hear. My understanding was that it was supposed to be a serious party.

While we need more voices in the Canadian political spectrum, UFO theorists and conspiracy theorists generally have an agenda that is out-of-this-world.

[margrace]

That is of course, nonsense. Put it this way....in India and Mexixo there are two tin foil hat wearing nervous types...one just said to the other....

"Sigh, can't you see that when we have a free-trade deal with a country that has a per capita literacy rate 100 times our own and more engineers than you can throw a stick at, that it will raise our education rates over time? The only way we will be able to compete with Canada, USA, and Japan is if we raise our education and our standard of living..."

Oh come on Dancer you are like a broken record. of course our standard of living is going to go down. Do you know how much the Auto makers made and now, if they can get a job, it will likely be a half what they were making. I know you think the general public is pretty dumb but enough is enough.

The buying power of these people alone was immense. Every sector suffers when one goes down, you can't sell junk to people who have no money.

[M.Dancer]

Oh come on Dancer you are like a broken record. of course our standard of living is going to go down. Do you know how much the Auto makers made and now, if they can get a job, it will likely be a half what they were making. I know you think the general public is pretty dumb but enough is enough.

The buying power of these people alone was immense. Every sector suffers when one goes down, you can't sell junk to people who have no money.

The fall of the big 3 has naught to do with free trade and a whole lot more to do with bad management, poor planning and excessive compensation and an unmotivated unionized workforce.

NOW READ THIS CAREFULLY...SOUND OUT THE WORDS IF YOU HAVE TO.

The proof of this is the declining sales of the big 3, the mounting losses and the fact they make more money from financing the sale of the car than from the sale of the car itself. If NAFTA had anything to do with the Big 3 laying off workers, the Big 3 would have a profit and rising cZr sales figures.....

On the otherhand in spite of free trade with mexico, Honda and Toyota continue to expand in North ameirca and continue to increase their payrolls and continue year after to year to increase their sales performance....

And no I don't think the general public is pretty dumb, but I do think certain posters are...

[Drea]

The fall of the big 3 has naught to do with free trade and a whole lot more to do with bad management, poor planning and excessive compensation and an unmotivated unionized workforce.

Oh, so it's the workers' fault that they build gas guzzlers? Is it also the worker's fault that management is so slow to act and change what is produced? Nah! Can't BE! Management is never wrong -- it's the workers fault -- they should have FORCED management to change production to smaller vehicles. Darn those workers only wanting to build big SUV's!

/sarcasm

Slow reaction in business is the fault of managment, not the workers.

NOW READ THIS CAREFULLY...SOUND OUT THE WORDS IF YOU HAVE TO.

The proof of this is the declining sales of the big 3, the mounting losses and the fact they make more money from financing the sale of the car than from the sale of the car itself. If NAFTA had anything to do with the Big 3 laying off workers, the Big 3 would have a profit and rising cZr sales figures.....

Toyotas and Hondas always have a higher resale value. It's not because they were built by low wage workers, but because management is wise enough to have foresight and build fuel efficient, quality vehicles. My sis just bought a Pontiac G5... a cheap tin friggin' box IMO.

I'm pissed because there really is no such thing as a "small" car today. The smallest car available (aside from the smart car) is the Mini and it is HUGE compared to the 1976 Honda Civic I used to drive.

On the otherhand in spite of free trade with mexico, Honda and Toyota continue to expand in North ameirca and continue to increase their payrolls and continue year after to year to increase their sales performance...

I guess the big 3 ought to take a look at WHY Toyotas and Hondas are selling... instead of blaming their own workers, they should look at their business practices.

And no I don't think the general public is pretty dumb, but I do think certain posters are...

You sure got that right

[segnosaur]

The fall of the big 3 has naught to do with free trade and a whole lot more to do with bad management, poor planning and excessive compensation and an unmotivated unionized workforce.

Oh, so it's the workers' fault that they build gas guzzlers? Is it also the worker's fault that management is so slow to act and change what is produced? Nah! Can't BE! Management is never wrong -- it's the workers fault -- they should have FORCED management to change production to smaller vehicles. Darn those workers only wanting to build big SUV's!

Ummm... I suggest you go back and read M.Dancer's original post... in it, he explicitely points out that bad management and poor planning are part of the problem. He even lists them before he mentions the problems with unionization.

The other problem with your response is that you are assuming some sort of false dichotomy... that it is either management or labor at fault. Ever think that perhaps both have lead to current problems? While management may make mistakes, labor problems also contribute the the problems.

I could also point out that, at least until recently, the profit margins on SUVs was signficantly higher than on smaller sedans. Is it a bad business decision to build vehicles that give higher per-unit profits?

[sharkman]

True enough Segnosaur, also true is that in the same country Toyota and Honda are making big profits and being generally quite successful while the big 3 are failing.

Market strategy(the 3 haven't been able to put out a decent small car, and can't make a profit on one anyway with the union wages they have to pay), quality and union wages are 3 big reasons why.

[segnosaur]

Oh come on Dancer you are like a broken record. of course our standard of living is going to go down. Do you know how much the Auto makers made and now, if they can get a job, it will likely be a half what they were making. I know you think the general public is pretty dumb but enough is enough.

The buying power of these people alone was immense. Every sector suffers when one goes down, you can't sell junk to people who have no money.

Ok, the first mistake you made in your post is that you are cherry-picking your examples. Yes, its quite possible that wages in the automotive sector may go down (although, as another poster has already suggested, troubles in the automotive sector may be due to issues outside of free trade.) However, there are other sectors of the economy where wages may actually go up with free trade. (I'm thinking of the high-tech sector, where some companies have moved tech support jobs to Canada.)

In fact, if you look at the statistics, our average hourly wage is increasing (rising 4% in the past year), and that includes wage increases in the manufacturing sector. (If NAFTA were actually destroying our jobs, I doubt you'd see such an increase.)

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/labr69a.htm

The second mistake you made is assuming that our standard of living depends only on absolute wages. However, it does not. It also depends on the cost of goods and services that you may purchase. Even if wages stay flat (or even decrease) our standard of living will not decrease (and may actually increase) if prices also decrease. This is what happens when you can import items cheaper than you can produce them here.

[margrace]

Oh, so it's the workers' fault that they build gas guzzlers? Is it also the worker's fault that management is so slow to act and change what is produced? Nah! Can't BE! Management is never wrong -- it's the workers fault -- they should have FORCED management to change production to smaller vehicles. Darn those workers only wanting to build big SUV's!

Ummm... I suggest you go back and read M.Dancer's original post... in it, he explicitely points out that bad management and poor planning are part of the problem. He even lists them before he mentions the problems with unionization.

The other problem with your response is that you are assuming some sort of false dichotomy... that it is either management or labor at fault. Ever think that perhaps both have lead to current problems? While management may make mistakes, labor problems also contribute the the problems.

I could also point out that, at least until recently, the profit margins on SUVs was signficantly higher than on smaller sedans. Is it a bad business decision to build vehicles that give higher per-unit profits?

Actualy I don't think any of the above makes much sense.

[M.Dancer]

Actualy I don't think any of the above makes much sense.

Have you considered adult literacy classes?

[Michael Hardner]

Market strategy(the 3 haven't been able to put out a decent small car, and can't make a profit on one anyway with the union wages they have to pay), quality and union wages are 3 big reasons why.

I thought Toyota/Honda paid comparable wages, no ?

Fill me in...