RCMP raids Tory party headquarters

[madmax]

Actually the whole thing is looking stranger every day, and it won't matter whether or not the CPC is innocent, in the court of public opinion, promoted by the Liberals and the Liberal media, they are guilty, and it's the optics that count for the most part.

I disagree. People initially believed the LPC during Chretian were innocent of adscam and other activities regardless of political and media pressure. People initially believe Mulroney and believed him moreso when he took on the government and won. Now look the LPC were guilty. Mulroney ghost (Schrieber) has come back to haunt him.

But I do not see this story having staying power.

I don't think it is wise to play the "were so hard done by" party card.

[sharkman]

I disagree. People initially believed the LPC during Chretian were innocent of adscam and other activities regardless of political and media pressure. People initially believe Mulroney and believed him moreso when he took on the government and won. Now look the LPC were guilty. Mulroney ghost (Schrieber) has come back to haunt him.

But I do not see this story having staying power.

I don't think it is wise to play the "were so hard done by" party card.

Huh? There were plenty of people who smelled something with adscam. Unlike this situation, the Liberals had a long track record of taxpayer waste which raised suspicions. Here, hard left liberals are suspicious simply because it's the hated CPC.

[August1991]

BTW does anyone have the part of the Elections Act that sets out an election advertising spending limits for a political party, and the actual section that restricts the transfer of funds.

That is a good question and a few facts might help in this discussion.

The following article reports (objectively) on the Conservative Party's decision to appeal to Federal Court the ruling of Elections Canada that theese expenses were not permissible:

The Conservative Party contends it has followed the Canada Elections Act and that all advertising paid for by candidates carried "tag lines" indicating they were authorized by the official agents for the candidates. The distinction is important because candidates are not allowed to claim advertising expenses they do not incur directly.

The Conservatives said Thursday transfers between parties and candidate campaigns are common among all federal parties. The Tories circulated what they called a random sample of seven Liberal candidates who, they say, followed the same process of transfers and payments between the party and its candidates.

In all cases, however, the amounts were substantially smaller than most of the Conservative expense claims for radio and TV advertising, and were categorized as either "surveys," "misc. expenses" or "other advertising." The Liberals says "other advertising" refers primarily to printed materials produced by the party and customized for their candidates.

CanWest

It seems to me that the issue concerns at what point can a local candidate pay the central party for services rendered. For example, a local candidate pays the central party for brochures and signs. Should these expenses be considered within the limits of the local candidate or of the central party? Or what if a local candidate runs an ad in a local paper, within which expense limit should this be counted?

First of all, I don't think that Elections Canada should be involved in this kind of micro-managing at all. That's just my opinion.

Second, as "crimes" go and assuming it is one, this is just not serious. It's nothing at all like using taxpayers money (tens of millions) giving bogus contracts to friends who then made unaccounted contributions to the party in power.

The Tories may have pushed the envelope on this stupid rule but when it comes right down to it, if a local candidate chooses to spend part of their allowable budget on advertising from the central office, is that wrong? The local candidate presumably benefits from this advertising.

To various degrees, all the parties do this. Elections Canada apparently objected to where the Conservatives drew the line.

[noahbody]

Does anyone know the specifics here? My guess is that the party produced radio spots with room for a 5 or 7 second tag that could be used to promote a local candidate should he or she wish to pay for the placement. Same approach for print advertising. Is this what occurred?

And if a local candidate takes out local advertising is it supposed to come out of the national advertising budget?

[DrGreenthumb]

Never! Not in the whole three months of DrGreenthumb's memory!

Which is all he has left because of all the clouds of pot circling his noggin.

there you have a nice example of a personal attack, nothing of substance in the post other than the personal attack. I'm tough though, I won't be running to alert the mod like conservatives do every time I say something they fiind offensive.

so what should the mandaTORY minimum sentence be for election fraud? If growing 1 plant warrants at least 6 months in prison, cheating the Canadian public out of a fair election should be worth at least 6 years?

[DrGreenthumb]

Does anyone know the specifics here? My guess is that the party produced radio spots with room for a 5 or 7 second tag that could be used to promote a local candidate should he or she wish to pay for the placement. Same approach for print advertising. Is this what occurred?

And if a local candidate takes out local advertising is it supposed to come out of the national advertising budget?

It was television ads attacking paul martin, and for about 3 seconds in tiny unreadable print at the end they put the local candidates name. That is the one i saw on CPAC anyway. A sneaky way to try and get around the spending limits imposed on all parties to ensure a fair election. Sneaky just like the conservatives usual antics, kind of like sneaking unrelated things into the same bill and then calling the entire bill a confidence motion.

Harper is like an oily serpent.

[noahbody]

It was television ads attacking paul martin

You mean the one where they said Martin was "going to put soldiers on our streets. We're not making this up?"

[MSH]

I guess when Elections Canada decides that the other parties have broken the rules.

Perhaps you could ask Harper why he appointed the present Elections Canada commissioner. He seemed to think capable at the time.

Harper and Elections canada have had a bone to pick with each other for years, and I think there are animosities beyond the commissioner himself (ie. bureaucrats down the chain of command). Remember Harper has been the driving force behind (rightly) fighting draconian gag law regulations, which unduly muzzle groups and individuals during campaigns by putting speech and funding restrictions on them. I think this is payback for Harper being a thorn in their side in the past.

BTW, other parties HAVE broken the rules, and have broken them more seriously and obviously. I'm quite sure that the Liberal party has practiced "in-and-out" campaign financing ummm...liberally...in past elections, and lest we forget them trying to "liberally" interpret donation limits by having well-heeled contributors submit contributions in the name of their grandchildren, and what not. And, well, AdScam still looms large as a bad blot on their party fundraising record.

For E.C. to have a warrant of this nature executed is without precident--it is usually a "last resort" measure when one of the parties in a lawsuit is being uncooperative, and when Conservative party officials contended there have been no information requests for months, E.C. was silent on the matter--they didn't dispute the party officials or provide any evidence at all of any requests being made.

Furthermore, it is completely obvious the media was tipped off, and possibly the Liberal party as well (or a Liberal-friendly journalist tipped off the Liberals), because within minutes of the RCMP's arrival, media crews arrived, with a Liberal-hired cameraman closely in tow. There is some kind of setup here, as if it was orchestrated to get footage for one of those "Harper will eat your pet kitten. It's true. We didn't make this up." style attack ads for the next election.

For the record, I am disappointed that the Conservatives are proving to be sliding towards a "Mulroney PC" type of operation rather than a "Manning Reform" operation (regardless of whether you differ on the political views, you cannot argue that the Reform party was a much more honest, open organisation in the way it was run). However, for the Liberals to point and accuse and yell with riteous indignation is very hypocritical...that pot is every bit as soot-stained as the kettle, if not more so, to this day.

[BubberMiley]

Enquiring minds would still like to know how the camera crews got there within minutes, as according to news reports the RCMP cruisers were unmarked and the police scanner didn't broadcast the "visit", so unless the crews and Liberals are telepathic, there is only one explanation for it.

Email. Text message. Telephone. Modern technology has all kinds of alternatives to telepathy. And juicy gossip does not know the restraint of party loyalty.

[jdobbin]

I'm a little confused. By referring to "they" are you talking about the Conservative Party? The Canada Election Act specifies that the commissioner is appointed by the Chief Electoral Officer and the CEO is appointed by parliament. link

I was referring to Elections Canada. The Tories are trying to say that the CEO Marc Mayrand appointed a Liberal flack as Commisoner to investigate them. They make out that Mayrand is a Liberal flack as well despite the fact that Harper appointed him.

Edited April 18, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

Harper and Elections canada have had a bone to pick with each other for years, and I think there are animosities beyond the commissioner himself (ie. bureaucrats down the chain of command). Remember Harper has been the driving force behind (rightly) fighting draconian gag law regulations, which unduly muzzle groups and individuals during campaigns by putting speech and funding restrictions on them. I think this is payback for Harper being a thorn in their side in the past.

That would mean the judiciary is implicated as well since a judge signed the search warrant.

BTW, other parties HAVE broken the rules, and have broken them more seriously and obviously. I'm quite sure that the Liberal party has practiced "in-and-out" campaign financing ummm...liberally...in past elections, and lest we forget them trying to "liberally" interpret donation limits by having well-heeled contributors submit contributions in the name of their grandchildren, and what not. And, well, AdScam still looms large as a bad blot on their party fundraising record.

I keep hearing about other parties breaking the rules but the Tories fall short on evidence when it comes to the the 2006 election.

The Tories can think the RCMP for naming Goodale despite lack of evidence of him doing anything wrong. It was political interference in an election.

For E.C. to have a warrant of this nature executed is without precident--it is usually a "last resort" measure when one of the parties in a lawsuit is being uncooperative, and when Conservative party officials contended there have been no information requests for months, E.C. was silent on the matter--they didn't dispute the party officials or provide any evidence at all of any requests being made.

So say the Tories. Guess we'll find out when the warrant is unsealed.

Furthermore, it is completely obvious the media was tipped off, and possibly the Liberal party as well (or a Liberal-friendly journalist tipped off the Liberals), because within minutes of the RCMP's arrival, media crews arrived, with a Liberal-hired cameraman closely in tow. There is some kind of setup here, as if it was orchestrated to get footage for one of those "Harper will eat your pet kitten. It's true. We didn't make this up." style attack ads for the next election.

Once again this is right wing paranoia. If the Tories really believe that Elections Canada is corrupt they should order an RCMP raid on their offices to look for the media and Liberal tip off.

Maybe Harper can sue someone.

For the record, I am disappointed that the Conservatives are proving to be sliding towards a "Mulroney PC" type of operation rather than a "Manning Reform" operation (regardless of whether you differ on the political views, you cannot argue that the Reform party was a much more honest, open organisation in the way it was run). However, for the Liberals to point and accuse and yell with riteous indignation is very hypocritical...that pot is every bit as soot-stained as the kettle, if not more so, to this day.

A Manning Reform operation was also unelectable as a national government so I guess you get your answer there.

The Conservatives continue to point at the Liberals and say they are worse and they are welcome to it. The problem is that Tories are getting tarred by their lawsuits, lack of transparency and continued fights with civil servants, judges and the media.

[Who's Doing What?]

...because nobody doubts Stephen Harper's integrity.

HAhahahahaha LMFAO hahahaha. That is as good a joke as I have heard in a loooooooooong time.

[Who's Doing What?]

Translation; Please get rid of these people so I can get someone, anyone in power who will let me smoke pot all the time! Please! I don't care if it's an Adolph Hilter clone burning Jews in ovens so long as I have my pot! I don't care if its a bunch of socialist idiots who destroy the economy! I only care about pot! Give me pot! Please! Please!

Talk about a one trick pony.

Translation: I'm a troll. Let me rip on someone who doesn't share my point of view.

[Who's Doing What?]

Perhaps, but you are.

Another post another insult. Talk about a one trick pony.

[Who's Doing What?]

Why did you ignore when August added "Disingenuous phrase". Word began to spread? We're talking about a half dozen guys in suits entering an office building. How is word about that going to spread around the city within minutes so that already hired Liberal videographers show up to record it all? Word began to spread? From whom? The only ones who would have known were the Tories and Elections Canada.

And anyone working the same building as the CPC headquarters. OR anyone walking past when the RCMP went in. Or anyone sitting in a nearby building within sight.

But no it HAS to be a Liberal/Elections Canada/CBC conspiracy.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Who's Doing What?

[Who's Doing What?]

You have that backward, but then, one could say that about almost everything you say.

Bullshit. Jdobbin is the worst party partisan on this site, probably the worst this site has ever had or ever will have. He's so utterly predictable I could write his posts beforehand on almost any issue.

Pot meet Kettle, Kettle this is pot.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Who's Doing What?

[noahbody]

The Conservatives continue to point at the Liberals and say they are worse and they are welcome to it.

That is true. But it is also true that the Liberals point at the Conservatives and say "see they're as bad as us." The Liberal brand was devastated by the word "scandal." Therefore their strategy at this point in time is to try to brand every impropriety by the Conservatives as a "scandal."

[sharkman]

Pot meet Kettle, Kettle this is pot.

Geez, what is this, it sounds like the old school yard taunt, I know you are but what am I...

[jdobbin]

That is true. But it is also true that the Liberals point at the Conservatives and say "see they're as bad as us." The Liberal brand was devastated by the word "scandal." Therefore their strategy at this point in time is to try to brand every impropriety by the Conservatives as a "scandal."

Seems to be a winning strategy. The Liberals are now in the lead in the polls.

[Wild Bill]

Seems to be a winning strategy. The Liberals are now in the lead in the polls.

Right now, that means nothing.

Wait till the writ is dropped. It's not enough to sling mud onto your opponent. You also have to convince people your guy would be a better choice.

The Liberal party strategy seems to be to keep slinging mud, avoid an election as long as possible and pray for a miracle.

I find it sad. I'm not totally fond of the new Tory party but the Liberals just won't give me an alternative I can stomach!

I guess like most Canadians I'm doomed to spend the rest of my life voting for who reeks the least!

I miss you, Preston!

[Qwerty]

Dion is a very weak leader to begin with and Harper will thrash him in any debate they have due to Harper having more umphh and sense of conviction than Dion.

Dion is a weak speaker as well, he doesn't have any charisma to make people want to listen to him he doesn't inspire confidence. He is better in french but just barely. Ignatiaff and Rae are already posturing for the role of leader when Dion steps down after he loses the next election anyhow. Typical Liberal regicide, gotta love it.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Qwerty

[jdobbin]

Right now, that means nothing.

Wait till the writ is dropped. It's not enough to sling mud onto your opponent. You also have to convince people your guy would be a better choice.

Slinging mud was enough last election. It is what the RCMP did to Ralph Goodale despite what the Complaints Commissioner said was a lack of evidence. It handed the Tories a victory after the Liberals dropped 10 point immediately after.

It seems many women are already thinking that Harper is a poor choice.

As for Manning, I always thought he was a decent man myself but he ran terrible candidates in many ridings including my own.

Edited April 18, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

Dion is a very weak leader to begin with and Harper will thrash him in any debate they have due to Harper having more umphh and sense of conviction than Dion.

Dion is a weak speaker as well, he doesn't have any charisma to make people want to listen to him he doesn't inspire confidence. He is better in french but just barely. Ignatiaff and Rae are already posturing for the role of leader when Dion steps down after he loses the next election anyhow. Typical Liberal regicide, gotta love it.

I suspect the Tories will win another minority but never under estimate the ability of Tories to blow it when it comes down to the actual election. Had this raid happened during the election, we would have seen Harper back on the Opposition benches.

[Argus]

Then the Tories have a more serious problem at hand and should order the RCMP to raid Elections Canada.

Yeah, that always works. Before calling up the media bureacrats always hold meetings to discuss their intentions, then document them so there's evidence.

The right wing seems at pains to say they are not right wing. What are the Tories and their supporters? Left wing?

It's just intersting that all of a sudden almost every post you make references the "right wing". This is a noticeably new tactic and I'm wondering when you guys were told to incorporate this into your neverending smear campaign against the Tories.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Argus

[Argus]

Saying your posts personalize as a matter of misdirection where others don't is quite accurate and that is why warnings have been issued in regards to the matter.

I'm sure the Tories would very much love to appoint a partisan Tory to Elections Canada. One wonders why they didn't do it the last two times.

Perhaps they simply have more ethics than the Liberals.

Then again, who doesn't.