Cadman allegedly Offered Money

[Keepitsimple]

There has been a great deal made about what Harper said "on tape" but let's get one thing straight. Harper is not a stupid man. He asked if his comments were going to be publicized and was told they would be going in a book about Chuck Cadman. Do people really think he would admit to a potential wrongdoing - a bribe as most media put it - knowing that it was going into a book? Absolutely not. In my opinion, his statements - when viewed in the context of the entire interview, confirm that:

1) He already had spoken to Cadman and in his opinion, Chuck was not going to change his mind.

2) He knew that Chuck was going to stand with the Liberals.

3) He OK'd the party members to talk to Chuck but warned them "not to press him" and that their notion that Cadman had financial insecurity concerns was just the party members' "theory".

4) He didn't know the details of what they were going to discuss.

As usual, the CBC has presented an abbreviated transcript that puts Harper in a bad light. Here's the most complete transcript of the tape that I could find - and although this is more that the media presents, it clearly is missing some questions at the beginning because it jumps right into a question about the insurance. It's also unfortunate that portions are inaudible. I think we need an even fuller context to understand things but even this transcript seems pretty innocent - at least as it pertains to Harper:

Tape Transcript

Here's what's on the tape Zytaruk had with Harper in 2005.

Zytaruk: "I mean, there was an insurance policy for a million dollars. Do you know anything about that?"

Harper: "I don't know the details. I know that there were discussions, uh, this is not for publication?"

Zytaruk: "This (inaudible) for the book. Not for the newspaper. This is for the book."

Harper: "Um, I don't know the details. I can tell you that I had told the individuals, I mean, they wanted to do it. But I told them they were wasting their time. I said Chuck had made up his mind, he was going to vote with the Liberals and I knew why and I respected the decision. But they were just, they were convinced there was, there were financial issues. There may or may not have been, but I said that's not, you know, I mean, I, that's not going to change."

Zytaruk: "You said (inaudible) beforehand and stuff? It wasn't even a party guy, or maybe some friends, if it was people actually in the party?"

Harper: "No, no, they were legitimately representing the party. I said don't press him. I mean, you have this theory that it's, you know, financial insecurity and, you know, just, you know, if that's what you're saying, make that case but don't press it. I don't think, my view was, my view had been for two or three weeks preceding it, was that Chuck was not going to force an election. I just, we had all kinds of our guys were calling him, and trying to persuade him, I mean, but I just had concluded that's where he stood and respected that."

Zytaruk: "Thank you for that. And when (inaudible)."

Harper: "But the, uh, the offer to Chuck was that it was only to replace financial considerations he might lose due to an election."

Zytaruk: "Oh, OK."

Harper: "OK? That's my understanding of what they were talking about."

Zytaruk: "But, the thing is, though, you made it clear you weren't big on the idea in the first place?"

Harper: "Well, I just thought Chuck had made up his mind, in my own view ..."

Zytaruk: "Oh, okay. So, it's not like, he's like, (inaudible)."

Harper: "I talked to Chuck myself. I talked to (inaudible). You know, I talked to him, oh, two or three weeks before that, and then several weeks before that. I mean, you know, I kind of had a sense of where he was going."

Zytaruk: "Well, thank you very much."

Link: http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_20068.aspx

[BubberMiley]

As usual, the CBC has presented an abbreviated transcript that puts Harper in a bad light.

Here's the CBC transcript. How does it put Harper in a bad light compared to the CTV transcript?

Or is it another case of when the CPC is in hot water, blame the CBC, mention adscam, and insult Belinda Stronach?

OTTAWA - Transcript of a portion of author Tom Zytaruk's tape of a 2005 interview with Stephen Harper, then leader of the Opposition, for his biography of the late Chuck Cadman:

Zytaruk: "I mean, there was an insurance policy for a million dollars. Do you know anything about that?"

Harper: "I don't know the details. I know that there were discussions, uh, this is not for publication?"

Zytaruk: "This (inaudible) for the book. Not for the newspaper. This is for the book."

Harper: "Um, I don't know the details. I can tell you that I had told the individuals, I mean, they wanted to do it. But I told them they were wasting their time. I said Chuck had made up his mind, he was going to vote with the Liberals and I knew why and I respected the decision. But they were just, they were convinced there was, there were financial issues. There may or may not have been, but I said that's not, you know, I mean, I, that's not going to change."

Zytaruk: "You said (inaudible) beforehand and stuff? It wasn't even a party guy, or maybe some friends, if it was people actually in the party?"

Harper: "No, no, they were legitimately representing the party. I said don't press him. I mean, you have this theory that it's, you know, financial insecurity and, you know, just, you know, if that's what you're saying, make that case but don't press it. I don't think, my view was, my view had been for two or three weeks preceding it, was that Chuck was not going to force an election. I just, we had all kinds of our guys were calling him, and trying to persuade him, I mean, but I just had concluded that's where he stood and respected that."

Zytaruk: "Thank you for that. And when (inaudible)."

Harper: "But the, uh, the offer to Chuck was that it was only to replace financial considerations he might lose due to an election."

Zytaruk: "Oh, OK."

Harper: "OK? That's my understanding of what they were talking about."

Zytaruk: "But, the thing is, though, you made it clear you weren't big on the idea in the first place?"

Harper: "Well, I just thought Chuck had made up his mind, in my own view ..."

Zytaruk: "Oh, okay. So, it's not like, he's like, (inaudible)."

Harper: "I talked to Chuck myself. I talked to (inaudible). You know, I talked to him, oh, two or three weeks before that, and then several weeks before that. I mean, you know, I kind of had a sense of where he was going."

Zytaruk: "Well, thank you very much."

Edited March 1, 2008 by BubberMiley

[Keepitsimple]

Here's the CBC transcript. How does it put Harper in a bad light compared to the CTV transcript?

Or is it another case of when the CPC is in hot water, blame the CBC, mention adscam, and insult Belinda Stronach?

I should have been more specific. I meant Don Newman on his Politics show. Several times, they have presented an abbreviated version before they started railing on Harper. Surely though, you can see that there 's a lot missing at the beginning - you don't just start an interview by jumping into a question about a million dollar policy that begins with "I mean....".

Edited March 1, 2008 by Keepitsimple

[eyeball]

We will have to see how this plays out in the court of public opinion. I know the partisans are going to scream but will the public care? I doubt the average person makes any distinction between the Cadman allegations and the Grewal allegations.

The court where I live confirms, again, that the Liberals and Conservatives are two-sides of the same coin and as venal and corrupt as the day is long.

I just wish the NDP and Greens could get over themselves and unite into a real opposition and alternative to the old status quo establishment that's been wiping its feet on this misbegotten country since Day 1.

[Topaz]

Here's the CBC transcript. How does it put Harper in a bad light compared to the CTV transcript?

Or is it another case of when the CPC is in hot water, blame the CBC, mention adscam, and insult Belinda Stronach?

My understanding of Parliamentary law is JUST the talk of OFFER is a no-no and could get you five years gone. Harper said he didn't know the details so it looks that they HAD at least had talks of the insurance policy and maybe Cadman was so mad as his wife said, that he didn't bring it up again with anyone because he didn't want talk about and he knew he wasn't going to change his mind so it was easier just so say what he did.

[YEGmann]

So, by her own words and actions, it looks like she did not and does not share Chuck Cadman's outrage at the Conservatives. Had she shared her husband's opinions, surely she would not have sought the Conservative nomination. What is her motive for joining the Conservative Party, a Party denounced by her husband?

I find this aspect of the story very bizarre.

I do not know Dona Cudman as a person. I would readily apologize if my explanations are incorrect. But how about this scenario.

1. Consrvatives had suggested some kind of financial assistance to Mr. Cadman if he would join the CPC. Mr. Harper's explanation is approprite so far. Mr. Cadman was upset, but not too much. There are plenty of confirmations of that in his interviews. Dona misinterpreted his words. The one million-dollar insuranse policy was a figure of speech in Mr. Cadman's words.

2. Mr. and Mrs. Cadman asked Tom Zytaruk to write a biography of Mr. Cadman. After Mr. Cadman passed away, Dona fed her recollection to Tom Zytaruk. It was in 2005. Mrs. Cadman received her husband's MP benefits.

3. In 2006 Mrs. Cadman decided (why?) that she could be an MP herself. Who would you join? A winning party - the CPC. Memory of Mr. Cadman would definitely help her. She did that, got her website. Guess who heralded about this event? http://www.donacadman.com/news_det.asp?ID=1606 - Tom Zytaruk!

4. Now 2007. Dona simply forgot her input in their (her and Tom Zytaruk's) book. Sincerely. Because the initial issue was routine, nothing exraordinary. Dogs bite men. But now the draft book was in the hands of... Paul Martin to write a foreword. This is an indication of Mrs. Cadman loyality to the CPC.

5. Came 2008. Time to publish the book. Prospectives of sales are not very promissing, what was important in 2005 merely gone.

Simultaneously, Liberals are waging continuous smear campaign against Conservatives. Somebody (Tom Zytaruk? Paul Martin?) saw an opportunity here. The episode from the unpublished book somehow "leaked", and almost immediately surfaced in the House of Commons. This is the best possible publicity. Sales are guaranteed.

6. Back to Dona Cadman. She had tough choice. To denounce the book, which she is a coauthor, or risk loosing the CPC nomination. For the nomination - no election in sight until some 2009. No guarantee to win, but necessity to spend her own money.

The book - money is coming. The more scandalous the content is the more publicity, the more sales. Now it is men bite dogs.

We saw the choice of Dona Cadman.

Disclamer: my hypothesis is just a hypothesis and there is still a remote probability that Dona Cadman is right and the CPC actually suggested Mr. Cadman 1 mln-dollar life insuranse. But her insistance on this precise amount strongly undermines her cradibility. She is not lying, she simply sticks to her interpretation of her late husband words.

However, in my view only this kind of hypothesis can explain all events without significant contradictions.

It is not about politics, because the timing is very inconvenient for Liberals, they have just announced they won't topple the goverment. They would rather use this story during an election campaign. By the time of election this hollow story will fade. And Paul Martin is involved rather infavourably - he has known about the "probable crime" for a year and has been silent...

All this story correlates well only with the book sale and Dona Cadman has stakes in it.

I completely exclude Dona Cadman from the list of possible spinners of this scandal. She did not started it, she was caught. She could have stopped it to preserve a good memory of her late husband. She preferred to mud flies. That means she must have very strong reason to do that. Is it a truth (probably imaginary) overweighed a good name? I would not like to be in Dona Cadman's situation. I do not judge her. I simply presented a formal view, trying to connect all known facts by now. I will be glad to be wrong.

[andyinottawa]

well to be honest none of your facts are correct , its the facts that are being dealt with not a hypothesis .

and it can't be disputed because harper is on tape knowing it was made

[HisSelf]

Who knows if the offer was made. I hate Harper, and I think he is a bush-kiss-up moron, but this just a big spin-o-rama.

[jazzer]

In a June 12, 2005, interview on Vancouver radio station CKNW, Cadman said the Tories did, in fact, make him financial offers days before the crucial vote.

"There was certainly some, you know, some offers made and some things along those lines about not opposing me and helping out with the finances of the campaign and that sort of thing. But, again, you know, that's all part of the deal that goes on. It's what happens, especially in a minority situation," Cadman says.

From http://canadianpress.google.com/article/AL...SYBtDST70o8W-3A

Interesting indeed.

[andyinottawa]

Who knows if the offer was made. I hate Harper, and I think he is a bush-kiss-up moron, but this just a big spin-o-rama.

so someone spun harpers words on tape ? wow impressive

[Riverwind]

so someone spun harpers words on tape ? wow impressive

Listen to the tape and stop inserting meaning based on your prejudices.

[YEGmann]

well to be honest none of your facts are correct , its the facts that are being dealt with not a hypothesis .

Sorry, andyinottawa, I did not present any fact (I assumed everybody knows them), I presented a point of view, an explanation. I agree, it can be completely wrong, however, a statement like "none of your ideas is correct " would normally require some backing rationale. Otherwise, it is simple empty words. Don't you think so.

[HisSelf]

so someone spun harpers words on tape ? wow impressive

OK, you asked for it. Cadman in his last days was not going to get into the middle of a big press-o-rama. How would you spend your last days on earth? Being hounded by the press? I don't think so.

Nobody can say for sure if his daughter and widow are telling the truth, but neither has a lot to gain, and the daughter has a lot to lose.

[BubberMiley]

It's hilarious looking at Tory reaction before and after the tape came out. Before they were blaming Liberals, challenging them to make the accusations outside of the House, insulting Stronach, trying to cloud the issue with a discussion about who qualifies for life insurance, and essentially saying that anyone who listened to Cadman's wife was calling Cadman a liar.

After the tape came out, they just challenged whether the tape is real (briefly), insulted Stronach, and tried to make it seem like it was just politics as usual.

So much for a more ethical government.

[Carinthia]

OK, you asked for it. Cadman in his last days was not going to get into the middle of a big press-o-rama. How would you spend your last days on earth? Being hounded by the press? I don't think so.

Nobody can say for sure if his daughter and widow are telling the truth, but neither has a lot to gain, and the daughter has a lot to lose.

Thank you, that makes perfect sense. All of us would wish to go peacefully and that's what he chose to do.

[scribblet]

so someone spun harpers words on tape ? wow impressive

Harper's words do not indict him for what is being alleged, only that something was said, and first off, the Cadman family should not be doing interviews with the media until such time that the facts are known, unless Mrs. Cadman was in the room when the discussion took place, it is all heresay. And...until this is resolved Mrs. Cadman should step aside as a CPC candidate.

Ezra Levant hits the nail on the head in suggesting that the Liberals will seize any opportunity to divert attention from their own disarray on most issues.

The Levant assessment is also more than credible. Cadman had only a few more weeks of life left due to his cancer, while is family was protected by a large insurance policy ( MP's standard policies) as long as he was employed as an MP. If the House was prorogued through the vote of confidence failing, he would be out of work and his insurance cover would have been drastically reduced. Therefore, he was under a very strong financial inducement to keep the House going by voting for Martin and the Libs. Which he did.

The only financial inducement on the table was more likely an assurance to Cadman that if he died soon after the House was prorogued, his family would not suffer the financial consequences of losing the large MPs insurance cover. If this was indeed the case, the conservatives were on the side of the angels rather than the other way round.

Why is it that the Liberals are allowed to make direct accusations in the House regarding the Cadman affair [as well as other libelous innuendos daily], and if is allowed the Conservatives should respond with a direct accusation about the bribing of Stronach and the attempted bribing of Grewall for the same type of vote? Surely what is good for the goose is good for the gander?

BTW, the Conservatives weren't in power at the time, so how they have possibly guaranteed the insurance coverage. and neither could they have purchased a new insurance policy for a man who was already on his deathbed.

How is the opposition claiming that this 'deal' was to have worked, or are they saying that the Conservatives would simply pay his widow $1 million out of party coffers, and if so so, theen why are they talking bout an insurance policy? This is getting curiouser and curiouser.

Edited March 2, 2008 by scriblett

[jdobbin]

Harper's words do not indict him for what is being alleged, only that something was said, and first off, the Cadman family should not be doing interviews with the media until such time that the facts are known, unless Mrs. Cadman was in the room when the discussion took place, it is all heresay. And...until this is resolved Mrs. Cadman should step aside as a CPC candidate.

Finally a Conservative who admits that Dona Cadman should step aside.

Ezra Levant hits the nail on the head in suggesting that the Liberals will seize any opportunity to divert attention from their own disarray on most issues.

The Levant assessment is also more than credible. Cadman had only a few more weeks of life left due to his cancer, while is family was protected by a large insurance policy ( MP's standard policies) as long as he was employed as an MP. If the House was prorogued through the vote of confidence failing, he would be out of work and his insurance cover would have been drastically reduced. Therefore, he was under a very strong financial inducement to keep the House going by voting for Martin and the Libs. Which he did.

The only financial inducement on the table was more likely an assurance to Cadman that if he died soon after the House was prorogued, his family would not suffer the financial consequences of losing the large MPs insurance cover. If this was indeed the case, the conservatives were on the side of the angels rather than the other way round.

Sorry, it is not on the side of the angels. It would constitute a bribe.

Why is it that the Liberals are allowed to make direct accusations in the House regarding the Cadman affair [as well as other libelous innuendos daily], and if is allowed the Conservatives should respond with a direct accusation about the bribing of Stronach and the attempted bribing of Grewall for the same type of vote? Surely what is good for the goose is good for the gander?

The Opposition are asking questions based on an accusation made by a Tory candidate.

BTW, the Conservatives weren't in power at the time, so how they have possibly guaranteed the insurance coverage. and neither could they have purchased a new insurance policy for a man who was already on his deathbed.

How is the opposition claiming that this 'deal' was to have worked, or are they saying that the Conservatives would simply pay his widow $1 million out of party coffers, and if so so, theen why are they talking bout an insurance policy? This is getting curiouser and curiouser.

It is curious. Let's see what the RCMP finds out.

Edited March 2, 2008 by jdobbin

[scribblet]

My memory may be wrong, but wasn't Cadman visited by Paul Martin and Ujjal Dosanjh prior to the vote in an effort to gain his support.

Given the Belinda Stronach tactics and probable bribery, it's more likely they made the offer.. and Mrs Cadman has it wrong...

[capricorn]

Finally a Conservative who admits that Dona Cadman should step aside.

I suggested that very thing in post #21 on Feb. 28 and that same day in post #23 you agreed with me. But then, perhaps my political leaning may not be as blatant as I think.

The Opposition are asking questions based on an accusation made by a Tory candidate.

It is curious.

That's what makes this story so mysterious and intriguing.

[BubberMiley]

The only financial inducement on the table was more likely an assurance to Cadman that if he died soon after the House was prorogued, his family would not suffer the financial consequences of losing the large MPs insurance cover. If this was indeed the case, the conservatives were on the side of the angels rather than the other way round.

Why is it that the Liberals are allowed to make direct accusations in the House regarding the Cadman affair [as well as other libelous innuendos daily], and if is allowed the Conservatives should respond with a direct accusation about the bribing of Stronach and the attempted bribing of Grewall for the same type of vote?

They were on the side of the angels when they broke the law, but to ask whether they did so is libelous?

Edited March 2, 2008 by BubberMiley

[Keepitsimple]

I'd still like to know what happened to the beginning of the tape/transcript. The one given to the media jumps right in to a question about the insurance policy. Clearly, there was a conversation before that question was asked. What happened to that part of the interview?

[Topaz]

Harper said when asked by the author about the life insurance policy and I quote, "I don't know the details and I can tell you that I TOLD the individuals...I mean, they wanted to to do IT....but I told them they were wasting their time" Harper went on to say that Cadman had already made up his mind to vote Liberal. Cadman is quoted saying he didn't know how he was going to vote he just knew he was really peeve off at the Cons. So apparently Harper knew about the insurance policy angle and knew that the two guys were thinking serious of the OFFER to Cadman.

[andyinottawa]

Harper said when asked by the author about the life insurance policy and I quote, "I don't know the details and I can tell you that I TOLD the individuals...I mean, they wanted to to do IT....but I told them they were wasting their time" Harper went on to say that Cadman had already made up his mind to vote Liberal. Cadman is quoted saying he didn't know how he was going to vote he just knew he was really peeve off at the Cons. So apparently Harper knew about the insurance policy angle and knew that the two guys were thinking serious of the OFFER to Cadman.

Exactly but the tories writing here are on the side of the angels when offering to pay him to vote and he died when they weren't sitting lol

omg you torries are a piece of work lol besides what good di the conservatives do for us since they have been in power except suck up to bush lol

[geoffrey]

I hope Turner was right in his analysis and the Liberals force an election on this! Wow, how great would it be?

You have the dead guy telling the nation there was no offer... the offer could never actually exist since no one would offer such a policy...

And they think Canadians are that stupid? Maybe a poor reflection on the intelligence of Mr. Turner and the people in the party feeding his opinion.

[capricorn]

Exactly but the tories writing here are on the side of the angels when offering to pay him to vote and he died when they weren't sitting lol

omg you torries are a piece of work lol besides what good di the conservatives do for us since they have been in power except suck up to bush lol

andy, you're a barrel of laughs lol lol. Imagine that, an offer to a dying man when they weren't sitting. You hit it on the head, sucking up to bush lol. Why didn't I think of that? You're too funny lol lol. At least you have an opinion lol. Ahhhh....