Did the Holocaust really happen?

socred · February 29, 2008

The Vatican?

Christians around the world are not granted citizenship in the Vatican because they are Christians.

Brain Candy · March 2, 2008

The higher ups in the communist regime were Jewish, so they inflated the holocaust numbers to put pressure on the UN to establish a Jewish state in Palestine?

No. I pointed that out as possible evidence that they could not be antisemites, and holocaust numbers could be inflated to cast a larger shadow of horror on their supposed ideological enemies post war.

buffycat · March 4, 2008

No. I pointed that out as possible evidence that they could not be antisemites, and holocaust numbers could be inflated to cast a larger shadow of horror on their supposed ideological enemies post war.

Good thing you aren't posting that in Germany - it would be off to the slammer for you!!

DogOnPorch · March 4, 2008

Good thing you aren't posting that in Germany - it would be off to the slammer for you!!

Gosh...I wonder why? Why would such a progressive country such as Germany have such laws? Care to give it a shot?

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There must be people who remember World War II and the Holocaust who can help us get out of this rut.

---Martin Scorsese

leonardcohen · March 5, 2008

All this arguing over numbers

is insane,whatever the agreed upon

number of souls who died,regardless

of whether they were gassed,shot, starved,

worked to death, or experimented on like

lab animals,the fact is it was GENOCIDE.

Nothing else matters!!

socred · March 5, 2008

All this arguing over numbers
is insane,whatever the agreed upon

number of souls who died,regardless

of whether they were gassed,shot, starved,

worked to death, or experimented on like

lab animals,the fact is it was GENOCIDE.

Nothing else matters!!

That is true, but why are people put in jail for debating the numbers?

Regulus de Leo · March 5, 2008

That is true, but why are people put in jail for debating the numbers?

Because they don't 'debate the numbers'. They deny the Holocaust and promote Naziism at the same time. This was Zundel's game.

socred · March 5, 2008

Because they don't 'debate the numbers'. They deny the Holocaust and promote Naziism at the same time. This was Zundel's game.

Even if he denied the holocaust (which I believe is factually incorrect, I think he just denied the numbers), does this mean he deserves to be in jail?

If someone promotes Nazism, do they deserve to be in jail?

DogOnPorch · March 5, 2008

That is true, but why are people put in jail for debating the numbers?

Most countries...if not all...that have anti-Holocaust Denial laws also have numerous other laws regarding free speech. While it is against the law to publicly deny the Holocaust in these countries, there are also laws preventing general hate speech against any identifiable religious, political or ethnic group. But Holocaust deniers will make it sound like there are only rules regarding hate speech when it comes to the Holocaust. Fact is you can get into just as much hot water for saying something bad about a number of things.

It's a logical fallacy known as Observational Selection.

Why is Holocaust Denial hate speech?

I think like a lot of things, Holocaust Denial is a beginning that leads to worse things. Free speech allows for us to buy a copy of The Protocalls of the Learned Elders of Zion; but, I get nervous when folks start looking at it as the truth rather than the Jew baiting rag that it was. Next thing you know, FOX is will be doing an expose...

Holocaust: The Myth Revealed! or The Protocalls: Jewish Conspiracy For World Domination!

Then millions of people with little to no knowlege of the Holocaust will be armed with someone's alarmist views of 'what really happened'. Walking away with the thought, 'Those Jews are sneaky bastards.' Certain YouTube conspiracy movies like Zeitgeist are good examples of how the uninformed can be easily led...and in large numbers.

Don't say it can't happen...as that's exactly what happened to the Moon Landings. I'm not armed with statistics but I recall some stupidly large percentage of people who watched FOX's show are convinced the Moon Landings were faked...no matter the physical and eyewitness evidence.

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

This is why I think some societies try to set the Holocaust and important other events in stone. Revisionists are constantly chipping away at the superstructure of history. It's almost to the point now where nothing is real. Black is white...up is down...Jew is Nazi. What will my grandchild's History text book look like? I shudder to think.

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The German people have been defrauded out of 100 billion Deutsche marks. It's a racket. It is not a historical event.

---Ernst Zundel

jbg · March 5, 2008

Even if he denied the holocaust (which I believe is factually incorrect, I think he just denied the numbers), does this mean he deserves to be in jail?
If someone promotes Nazism, do they deserve to be in jail?

Of course not. I am Jewish and proudly so. I defend to my death the right of people to be stupid, hateful, etc. Bad ideas do not flourish in open debate.

jbg · March 5, 2008

I think like a lot of things, Holocaust Denial is a beginning that leads to worse things. Free speech allows for us to buy a copy of The Protocalls of the Learned Elders of Zion; but, I get nervous when folks start looking at it as the truth rather than the Jew baiting rag that it was. Next thing you know, FOX is will be doing an expose...

DOP - One of the few times you and I disagree. But I don't want to jail you for it.

DogOnPorch · March 5, 2008

DOP - One of the few times you and I disagree. But I don't want to jail you for it.

What's to disagree with? I don't want Mein Kampf ripped from the shelves. I just think it becomes a problem if people actually start doing something with its content.

If someone promotes Nazism, do they deserve to be in jail?

No...but when they hold marches they shouldn't be surprised if they meet with some resistance.

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Jews are filled with more hatred and rage for our race, for our heritage, for our blood than perhaps you can imagine.

---David Duke

jbg · March 5, 2008

What's to disagree with? I don't want Mein Kampf ripped from the shelves. I just think it becomes a problem if people actually start doing something with its content.
No...but when they hold marches they shouldn't be surprised if they meet with some resistance.

Then we agree. And I'm not even sure those marches warrant police protection.

Brain Candy · March 5, 2008

All this arguing over numbers
is insane,whatever the agreed upon

number of souls who died,regardless

of whether they were gassed,shot, starved,

worked to death, or experimented on like

lab animals,the fact is it was GENOCIDE.

Nothing else matters!!

But to what extent? And why should anyone be in jail for expressing their views on this issue? And why has any attempt to look through the numbers of people who have died been lumped together with "Holocaust Denial" when any sane person can tell the difference? All of these question are important and wont be answered by getting emotional.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Brain Candy

White Doors · March 5, 2008

But to what extent? And why should anyone be in jail for expressing their views on this issue? And why has any attempt to look through the numbers of people who have died been lumped together with "Holocaust Denial" when any sane person can tell the difference? All of these question are important and wont be answered by getting emotional.

what, exactly, is it pertinent to?

That is the issue.

Any logical person can see that. Why would you spend so much effort, put stock is so much that is easily dis-proved to minimze one of the best historical facts that the world has?

What is the motivation?

answer that and you will have your answer.

Learn to look further than the end of your nose.

Brain Candy · March 5, 2008

Most people have underlying political motivations when discussing things like the holocaust, and people should be aware of them. But would it not be better to allow debate at a factual level on this issue, like Irving attempted? And if they are completely off base, then proove it? Iran set up a holocaust conference to openly mock the wests stigma on this issue, and I think we deserved it.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Brain Candy

M.Dancer · March 5, 2008

But would it not be better to allow debate at a factual level on this issue, like Irving attempted?

Generally when someone is being sarcastic or attempting humour on the interwebs it is helpful to use an emoticon....so let me show you....

But would it not be better to allow debate at a factual level on this issue, like Irving attempted?

HisSelf · March 5, 2008

I see a thread like this and I have to wonder. Is the Earth flat? Is global warming real? Who is Donald Trump's barber?....

M.Dancer · March 5, 2008

But would it not be better to allow debate at a factual level on this issue, like Irving attempted?

I still find this one of the dryer, funnier posts....

Irving's status as a historian has been widely discredited[2] as a result of controversy arising from his noted Holocaust denial and misrepresentation of historical sources. During an unsuccessful libel case Irving brought against American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books in 1998, an English court found that he is "an active Holocaust denier; that he is antisemitic and racist and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism." The judge also ruled that Irving had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving

HisSelf · March 5, 2008

... is the theatre really dead?...

Brain Candy · March 5, 2008

Yes i am aware of what the judged ruled, as well as how all of his previous work has been magically discredited since then.

I am also aware that this gets away from whether it is right to deport him, despite many people with racists view are never brought to trial, is it because he was an academic? Also Id never claim the holocaust never happened, its the extent that I think should be open to debate, if at least to shut up the conspiracy theorists around it. This thread may be dead.

jbg · March 5, 2008

I see a thread like this and I have to wonder. Is the Earth flat? Is global warming real? Who is Donald Trump's barber?....

There are some serious comments regarding free speech in this thread. So it's not the total waste that global warming threads are, inasmuch as the Holocaust did happen and anthropogenic global warming is not happening.

DogOnPorch · March 6, 2008

But would it not be better to allow debate at a factual level on this issue, like Irving attempted?

David Irving: The Erich von Daniken of history. Those unfamiliar with von Daniken might recall his books...most notably Chariots of the Gods? Irving treats history in a similar manner. King of Observational Selection.

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History is like a constantly changing tree.

---David Irving

socred · March 7, 2008

Yes i am aware of what the judged ruled, as well as how all of his previous work has been magically discredited since then.
I am also aware that this gets away from whether it is right to deport him, despite many people with racists view are never brought to trial, is it because he was an academic? Also Id never claim the holocaust never happened, its the extent that I think should be open to debate, if at least to shut up the conspiracy theorists around it. This thread may be dead.

Of course there is an attempt to silence all debate on this subject. That does not mean that what Irving said was true. There's a group of people who still believe the earth is flat. Should they be arrested as well?

Why don't we just get the JDL and the ADL to tell us what the truth is, and we will arrest anyone who disagrees with them? Sounds like a solid plan to me!

Edited March 7, 2008 by socred