Why capitalism doesn't work

[marcinmoka]

Capitalism does not work because it relies on the economic imperialism of the developed nations over the developing nations.

Not very descriptive. While you may not AGREE with 'the system", you've failed to show how it does not work. But as always, whenever I meet an anti-capitalist who has grown up with the all the privileges only capitalism can provide, I'm inclined to ask: Can you actually define capitalism? 9/10 they can't. Can you? Can you differentiate it from Mercantilism?

[bush_cheney2004]

....Also Capitalism doesn't work because it really doesn't work for half of the world. No one can deny that there is a world economic system presently. For example if there is a recession in the US economy ,then there will be a recession almost all over the world! So if there is a world economy, then there is world capitalism! Then why are there so many poor countries(even though they have plenty of natural resources)? It is ecause of capitalism and economic imperialism.

This is circular reasoning.....the standards for "poor" are in fact derived from comparisons to the fruits of capitalism. Natural resources in and of themselves do not eliminate poverty, unless one changes the definition itself.

[segnosaur]

Capitalism does not work because it relies on the economic imperialism of the developed nations over the developing nations.

Actually, no it doesn't.

Yes, its true that we currently receive products made by (relatively) low cost labor in other countries. But that is not a requirement for capitalism. In fact, if and when the standard of living (as well as wages) in those less developed nations start to rise it will not mean the end of western capitalism. What will likely happen is that they will end up selling us fewer products, and because of their higher wages will be able to purchase more products made in Canada/the U.S.A./Other capitalist nations.

I suggest you look up 'opportunity cost' in an economics text book.

Also capitalism does not work because the present financing system requires a perpetual growth of investments and actual exploitation of natural resources in order to survive.

Again, no it doesn't.

It is true that investments and the use of natural resources is increasing, but that's because A) our population is also growing (requiring more resources in the process), and capitalism is successful at giving people a better life, thus allowing people to purchase luxury goods.

So, you've basically got the cause-and-effect wrong.

That is because all the money is controlled by the banks...

Wrong again.

There is no real 'control' over money. The federal government sets monetary policy, but ultimately individual bank users have the decision on whether to deal with a bank or not, to deposit money or take out loans, etc. Furthermore, those 'banks' are actually owned by thousands of individual shareholders, who all have a say in the conduct of the bank.

Also Capitalism doesn't work because it really doesn't work for half of the world.

Again, you've got the cause-and-effect relationship wrong.

Capitalism isn't working in half the world not because its a flawed system, but because it hasn't even really been tried.

Most 3rd world countries are dictatorships, many are (or have been) socialist, and many have authoritarian governments which restrict economic activity.

Instead of blaming capitalism (a system which hasn't been tried), why don't you try looking at the actual causes of the problems?

No one can deny that there is a world economic system presently. For example if there is a recession in the US economy ,then there will be a recession almost all over the world!

That's because capitalism DOES work. In fact, its because it worked so well in the U.S. (with one of the freest economies in the world) that the U.S. can and does have an impact over the world. If the U.S. decided to adopt a more socialist economy, it would have less influence in the word, but that's because its economy would suffer.

So if there is a world economy, then there is world capitalism!

What a totally retarded statement.

There is no reason why a capitalist economy cannot have trade relations with a socialist economy. For example, prior to the breakup of the U.S.S.R. Canada regularly sold wheat to the Soviet bloc. That still didn't make Russia capitalist... the state still had control over most of the economy.

Then why are there so many poor countries(even though they have plenty of natural resources)?

Its because many of those 'poor countries' have governments that interfere directly in the economics of the country.

I can go on and on for ever.

Yeah but the question is, if you went on for ever, would you eventually start to get anything right?

[Pliny]

But socialism isn't about making people equal, it's about 'to each according to his needs'.

The needs must be assessed and taken from those with the ability to pay and given to those according to their needs. All must be equal to the lowest common denominator.

Capitalism, together with 'Special interests' have created a tiny class of very wealthy people, so the system has worked well for them.

Capitalism has not been around in it's true form for at least 80 years and social democracy has moved in to protect the wealth of a tiny class of people. Sorry, "social democracy" has created a system of "special interests" who lobby and vote for those interests.

Socialism's end goal is for no government to exist, so maybe you're more socialistic than you think.

I keep hearing that but no one has really outlined how that will occur. It is probably because the final revolution will toss out all socialist governments.

Don't get me wrong. I understand socialism quite well. It is the structure that exists in Business and the family, and that has worked so well for thousands of years in those institutions. In government it is a complete failure because we are not employees and we are not children. Most of us upon reaching adulthood are eager to start a life where we run our own affairs, cut the apron strings and venture out on our own to experience what life may offer. If government promises to look after you then how do you grow, learn and experience life and what it has to offer or more importantly how do you form the concept that you have a contribution to make in life when that decision is already being made for you.

[Pliny]

Excellent rebuttal to Mr. Gallos, Segnosaur.

An emotional plea to end poverty without any plan other than take it from someone else and give it to the needy.

Can there be anything wrong with this. Yes, very much and not the taking part. Most will contribute and help their fellow man. Most of the probelms exist in the giving part of this equation.

Firstly, is living in a village without plumbing and electricity poverty or is it the way of life and the standard to which the people are accustomed? Do they want plumbing and electricity? Are they going to be able to use it or will it just be a wasted effort. More often than not it will be a wasted effort.

You know most people don't look back to where our standard of living was a century ago and how it came to be where it is today. It was through hard work. My grandparents lived in earthen huts at the beginning of the 20th century. they worked hard and long and suffered through the long winters on the prairies in Canada. Our genration are the benefactors. We enjoy the increased standard of living that came about despite government for the most part not because of it.

What would those people in third world countries do if they didn't work in the factories and make a living for their families? Wait around for handouts from the west or for charity and government to provide them their sustenance? If they are going to improve their lot they need to demand that their government step out of their lives. Their governments are more greedy and intrusive than ours are but we are working on having government here operate like they do in those third world countries where they just take what they want out of it.

The picture painted of greedy men raping the resources of the land are really the governments of the land selling out to the highest bidder. It is the governments and not the businesses that control resources or regulate business and whenever someone complains about greedy "capitalism" I have to shake my head.

Edited February 10, 2008 by Pliny

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Capitalism and socialism are not the end all to our social systems. The simple reality is that we have yet to devise a system of government for our society that is beneficial to all. The current system that we live in provides opportunity and wealth at the cost of time and family. I see this as a relevant statement in as much as there truly is a COST involved.

Society as we know and understand it in the western or capitalistic world is far different from the concepts of society in for instance China. Whether we agree or disagree with their form of society is of no importance because that society WILL dominate our own within decades, unless we change. Our search for wealth and prosperity has taken us this far, but surely this isn't all that there is in this life.

Humankind is administered by individuals who are accountable only at specific times under specific situations such as elections and revolutions. Until our politics can catch up to our society we are condemned to repeat our mistakes. Keeping in mind that both China and India have existed as countries for thousands of years and they have experienced all known forms of government, what would lead folks to believe anything but the fact of their survival is founded upon their ability to adapt. There is a lesson in that and we need to understand it.

We are now at a point in our evolution of society where communication is possible without the need for government sanction. We can talk to each other, that is very important. Talk is how we deal with things peacefully. When we don't talk things are not so peacefull, LOOK AT YOUR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS TO SEE THE TRUTH IN THIS STATEMENT.

Governments in general are the root of our problems. Nationality and demographics, religions and races are all blind to communications. So how is it that we cannot learn from this? The answer is governments and power. Money has profound impact on individuals but political power has far more. Has anyone ever met a poor politician? Do not all politicians retire wealthy? What is the relationship there?

Our society must evolve or face catastrophic consequences, as all societies have over the ages. Empires rise, but when they fall people die. The search for enlightened governance must begin soon, before it is too late.

[VIV3LAR3VOLUTION]

Thx Jerry, your reply, in my opinion, is the most intelligent reply so far(no offense to everyone).

What upsets me is that we are smarter then ever before, technology, medicine, politics you name it,

so why is it so f%#*ed up?

Ill be honest, I'm fed up with humankind. I almost want to see the world burn away, maybe several

BILLIONS should die(and I think its coming in this generation), then maybe we would wakeup!

Vive la revolution!

[Pliny]

Capitalism is about the free exchange of value. We need to come to terms with the fact that we have yet to develop a universal model that defines value completely. Either the monetary system is an imperfect determinant of value or there is a better measure of value...

The best thing about value is that it can be measured. Hopefully this is something we can all agree on...

Value is subjective and always will be. The monetary system will never determine value. It will always be the individual who determines value. The value is determined by the individual and is the point where purchasing something or trading something is seen to be better than having the money or the the article he deems worth trading. It may vary from individual to individual depending upon his consideration of need and/or benefit over the status quo. There is no other measure of value.

[Pliny]

Capitalism and socialism are not the end all to our social systems. The simple reality is that we have yet to devise a system of government for our society that is beneficial to all. The current system that we live in provides opportunity and wealth at the cost of time and family. I see this as a relevant statement in as much as there truly is a COST involved.

Society as we know and understand it in the western or capitalistic world is far different from the concepts of society in for instance China. Whether we agree or disagree with their form of society is of no importance because that society WILL dominate our own within decades, unless we change. Our search for wealth and prosperity has taken us this far, but surely this isn't all that there is in this life.

Humankind is administered by individuals who are accountable only at specific times under specific situations such as elections and revolutions. Until our politics can catch up to our society we are condemned to repeat our mistakes. Keeping in mind that both China and India have existed as countries for thousands of years and they have experienced all known forms of government, what would lead folks to believe anything but the fact of their survival is founded upon their ability to adapt. There is a lesson in that and we need to understand it.

We are now at a point in our evolution of society where communication is possible without the need for government sanction. We can talk to each other, that is very important. Talk is how we deal with things peacefully. When we don't talk things are not so peacefull, LOOK AT YOUR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS TO SEE THE TRUTH IN THIS STATEMENT.

Governments in general are the root of our problems. Nationality and demographics, religions and races are all blind to communications. So how is it that we cannot learn from this? The answer is governments and power. Money has profound impact on individuals but political power has far more. Has anyone ever met a poor politician? Do not all politicians retire wealthy? What is the relationship there?

Our society must evolve or face catastrophic consequences, as all societies have over the ages. Empires rise, but when they fall people die. The search for enlightened governance must begin soon, before it is too late.

Good post.

We have developed technologically our ability to communicate and perhaps this will bring about the changes necessary to our government. I agree they are at the root of our problems.

I will take exception with one point I feel is erroneous and that is that China and India, although their societies have indeed existed for centuries, they have not experienced all different forms of government. Recently, India has adopted democracy but they have a caste system, a societal structure, that doesn't allow for concepts of western democracy, such as equality under the law, freedom and liberty or security of person and property.

I believe there are more than a few places in rural China where they would have problems understanding the concept of personal and private property.

Ill be honest, I'm fed up with humankind. I almost want to see the world burn away, maybe several

BILLIONS should die(and I think its coming in this generation), then maybe we would wakeup!

Sometimes we arrive at this point. You must shake your head and focus. All you need to do is find one thing that doesn't make you feel like you are fed up with humankind. And that is all you need to disprove your statement.

If you can't find just one thing, one teensy weensy thing, then we will all have to kill you.

Hope that made you laugh but you really do need to refocus and quit watching the news or listening to whoever you have been listening to - they sound really depressing.

P.S. Throw out your copy of the collected works of Michael Moore, as well.

Edited February 11, 2008 by Pliny

[Pliny]

Well if it's not mutually beneficial, the offended party will ask to stop the dance. It takes two to tango.

pretty simple really.

Well, true but I was inquiring about third party regulation - as in government.

[gc1765]

Thx Jerry, your reply, in my opinion, is the most intelligent reply so far(no offense to everyone).

What upsets me is that we are smarter then ever before, technology, medicine, politics you name it,

so why is it so f%#*ed up?

Ill be honest, I'm fed up with humankind. I almost want to see the world burn away, maybe several

BILLIONS should die(and I think its coming in this generation), then maybe we would wakeup!

Vive la revolution!

You're concerned about people in third world countries, but you want several billion people to die? Give your head a shake.

[VIV3LAR3VOLUTION]

You're concerned about people in third world countries, but you want several billion people to die? Give your head a shake.

i didnt mention 3rd world countries, im talking about HUMANKIND, read before you flame.

[White Doors]

i didnt mention 3rd world countries, im talking about HUMANKIND, read before you flame.

yes, you are for a socialistic killing. Not only should billions from the deveolping world die, but billion from the developed world too? I get it now! how altruistic of you.

this is why we vote people. To keep people who believe such idiocy away from power.

[gc1765]

i didnt mention 3rd world countries...

Uh, yes you did:

canada is one of the best country to live in,

but the 3rd world countries are still starving.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Is this really called "why capitalism doesn't work" as China, the last remaining legitimate bastion of marxist thought explodes with economic - and capitalist - growth?

GIVE

ME

A

BREAK.

[August1991]

Is this really called "why capitalism doesn't work" as China, the last remaining legitimate bastion of marxist thought explodes with economic - and capitalist - growth?

Jerry, some time ago, I came to the conclusion that the only socialists remaining in the world are posting on Internet forums and/or teaching in Western universities.

[VIV3LAR3VOLUTION]

I'm not here to flame or troll, just gathering info.

Free trade is obviously causing some major harm

in the world can you guys deny that? I'm not looking

for a dictatorship either. The governments are too

damn big and too complicated i think. I'm not the

only one that feels this way. I actually wrote

"Ill be honest, I'm fed up with humankind. I almost want to see the world burn away, maybe several

BILLIONS should die(and I think its coming in this generation), then maybe we would wakeup!"

I'm in agreement with Jerry J.

Why should i have to risk my life, work my ass off for 50 yrs,

miss my kids growing up and retire poor?

I'm using communication to throw ideas and receive them, and

maybe, just maybe, some of us can come up with descent answers.

anyone familiar with Ayn Rand and her objectivism philosophy?

I'm listening to her audio books and i must say its quite interesting.

a different view of capitalism for sure.

Edited February 15, 2008 by VIV3LAR3VOLUTION

[Pliny]

Jerry, some time ago, I came to the conclusion that the only socialists remaining in the world are posting on Internet forums and/or teaching in Western universities.

True. They sure make a lot of noise though.

[Pliny]

I'm not here to flame or troll, just gathering info.

Free trade is obviously causing some major harm

in the world can you guys deny that? I'm not looking

for a dictatorship either. The governments are too

damn big and too complicated i think. I'm not the

only one that feels this way. I actually wrote

"Ill be honest, I'm fed up with humankind. I almost want to see the world burn away, maybe several

BILLIONS should die(and I think its coming in this generation), then maybe we would wakeup!"

I'm in agreement with Jerry J.

Why should i have to risk my life, work my ass off for 50 yrs,

miss my kids growing up and retire poor?

I'm using communication to throw ideas and receive them, and

maybe, just maybe, some of us can come up with descent answers.

anyone familiar with Ayn Rand and her objectivism philosophy?

I'm listening to her audio books and i must say its quite interesting.

a different view of capitalism for sure.

Keep on reading. Ayn Rand is about Capitalism. She is a bit arrogant and that comes through but I would like to know what you thought Capitalism was before you started reading her?

What you need to do is start understanding economics not politics. Politics is the demagogic aspect of government. Economics is what government is all about. It can't survive without being parasitic upon the economy of a nation. It shores up it's sources of revenue with legislation and in the west has attempted to take control of the economy. Notice they like to take credit for creating jobs. They don't create jobs, by the way, only entrepreneurial and capitalistic ventures create jobs. The only way government can claim to create jobs is to allow, through taxes and policy, a climate that fosters entrepreneurial efforts, who in turn create jobs. Opening government positions for people to fill is not creating jobs. It doesn't add to the production of the country. It is a negative contribution to the economy and those jobs must be paid through the production of the economy, the "capitalistic" efforts of individuals.

Politicians like to take responsibility for the shape of the economy as well. They say, the policies of our government have created a favourable and prosperous economy. Or the policies of the previous administration were disastrous to the economy. So how well people are doing economically is apparently and entirely the result of governmental economic policy and has nothing to do with the production of the people. As I said they attempt to control the economy and mostly do a poor job of it.

I chuckle a bit when someone brings up the subject of "free trade" and how it has hurt us. How has it hurt you personally but most importantly how do you perceive it to be free trade in the first place? Trade definitely may hurt people in a competitive market if they are not competitive and don't keep up with demands of the consumer. When buggy whips are no longer necessary buggy whip manufacturers should see it coming. Those that don't or ignore what's happening in the market get hurt. Running to the government to bail them out shouldn't be an option for them.

Capitalism is about change and a vibrant society where people must be active and productive. Socialism is about preservation of the status quo, a resistance to change, non-production is supported and is necessarily a stagnant society where death is not allowed to occur naturally and the rot starts to spread throughout society.

The reason socialism looks appealing is because it sympathetically caters to that rot and keeps supporting failing enterprises. Eventually, most of those enterprises it will have instituted itself as governmental monopolies.

There is always an attempt for an organism, individual or company or association or group, to sustain itself. The attempts of government to sustain society are filled with do-good attempts to preserve society as it exists or engineer it as someone believes it should exist. You are not witnessing capitalism operating in the world if you are looking at all the poverty, criminality, ill-health, war, terrorism, illiteracy, etc., you are looking at governments which foster those things because it preserves in law it's social engineering. In the west, some people can become wealthy; this is in spite of government not because of it. It means in the west there is still some security of person and property from government. When third world countries can provide some security of person and property there will magically appear some relief from poverty and some measure of prosperity will appear.

You by complaining of the rich are destroying something government is charged with and is it's very raison d'etre - supplying the security of person and property. You do not believe a person should have any security or certainty of their economic future, other than they should remain poor, at least as poor as the average individual. No one should be better off than anyone else - except of course one's self. But what security do you have if your life should somehow economically improve above that of the rest of the people. It does magically happen to some people somehow? Probably because others were cheated, right? According to the socialist, that seems to be the only way anyone gets ahead in life - if someone else gets cheated out of their share of the wealth or by some accident of nature that must be somehow equalized. Never is it about one's efforts to work and supply a demand that fulfills the needs of his fellowman.

You are starting out at the same place that everyone starts out at when they become concerned about society or what they have done with their life - and that is a state of "What's going on here?". You haven't sorted through a lot of things regarding government, society and economy. It isn't something government fosters in it's education today. Education is more about "relationships" and contributing to the "community" today than about critical thinking. And you especially are not supposed to be critical of government who have the best of intentions and know how society should be engineered. Remember though, government, especially in the form of social democracy, is just individuals who use their position to cater to the special interests who lobby them and contribute to their own interests in how society should be engineered - for the good of all whether you like it or not.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Pliny

[segnosaur]

I'm not here to flame or troll, just gathering info.

If your goal is to 'gather info', then why did you open this thread with a post trying to GIVE info (as in 'look at this article')? If you wanted to just 'gather info' then you would have said something like 'what are some of the benefits and drawbacks to capitalism'.

Free trade is obviously causing some major harm

in the world can you guys deny that?

Yes, we can deny that.

Please indicate one example where free trade itself has caused 'major harm' (rather than government incompetence or other factors outside the bounds of 'free trade'.)

The governments are too

damn big and too complicated i think.

Hey, I agree... we have too much government influence in our life. But guess what? That should (in theory) make you pro-capitalist/free enterprise, since wanting to reduce the impact of governments is more of a libertarian ideal.

Why should i have to risk my life, work my ass off for 50 yrs,

miss my kids growing up and retire poor?

Umm... maybe because you'd be making some very stupid decisions in your life?

I've been working for 15 years. In the next 5-10 years, I can consider retiring. (And as I've stated before, I am certainly nowhere being classified as 'wealthy'.) How could I afford to do that? Just doing a LITTLE research, and making a few smart decisions that will allow me to retire early. Of course, I'm relying on investments (which themselves depend on the capitalist system.)

anyone familiar with Ayn Rand and her objectivism philosophy?

I'm listening to her audio books and i must say its quite interesting.

a different view of capitalism for sure.

Ayn Rand was a supporter of capitalism.

[HisSelf]

Ayn Rand was a supporter of capitalism.

I've read Rand's books. When I read the huge rambling monologues, particularly in "Atlas Shrugged", I am reminded of Faulkner's "The Sound and the Fury".

She was an idiot. Saddam would have loved her.

[Pliny]

I've read Rand's books.

She was an idiot. Saddam would have loved her.

I wonder if she would have loved Saddam as much? Too bad, we'll never know, unless you are hiding more knowledgeable little tidbits we can feed on?

[Pliny]

Deleted double post

Edited February 17, 2008 by Pliny

[Brain Candy]

Capitalism is the ability for money to find better ideas and better ideas the ability to find money.

Sometimes i wonder about this; better in what way? It brought us good and useful things, its also brought us TV, porn and other useless, disposable yet pleasant distractions. This is probably because alot of us are dumb and cant seperate what they want from what will make them happier or better people, thus demand and receive garbage .

[Pliny]

Sometimes i wonder about this; better in what way? It brought us good and useful things, its also brought us TV, porn and other useless, disposable yet pleasant distractions. This is probably because alot of us are dumb and cant seperate what they want from what will make them happier or better people, thus demand and receive garbage .

It seems it is the price we have to pay to maintain freedom and liberty but the price, the prevalence of such ill-conceived products, is more than likely proportional to the cost of public education.