How can we all sleep at night knowing...

[Moonlight Graham]

I'd sleep far less if the world would be polluted by 10+ billion anatomically human creatures...

Do you not realize that the world is overpopulated? why assume that human quantity is more important then human quality? There is poverty in the world mainly due to excessive breeding...

Saving one malnourished child in the third world, merely creates 8 more mouths to feed in a generation... and also diminishes available resources and drop life quality too!

I find it so maddening that the same liberal "green" crowd always so smug and endlessly talking about "climate change awareness" always fail to realize that the one pollution we need to rid ourselves of is the billions of vocal anthropoids who are breeding like guinea pigs and stretching our already exhausted resources further every day.

wake up for god's sake!

Lictor my friend. Do you know that the West throws away enough food to feed the entire world?

Overpopulation. Is it a problem? Yes, of course. Especially in Africa where breeding is rampant. But the important question is "why"? Why is there overpopulation in developing countries? In the West, our population is going down. The 1960's brought a women's revolution. Our society now has access to birth control, therefore family sizes have dropped dramatically.

In developing countries, most of the population doesn't have access to proper healthcare, let alone birth control. Women are forced to have sex by their husbands or other men, and children are born. Is it the man's fault that there is overpopulation? In some ways yes, but since most men (and women) in the most overly-populated countries are uneducated they don't even realize that they heck the outcome of their actions cause on a macro scale socially and economically.

The way to fix the dreadful problems in developing countries is extremely complex. But to solve the problem of overpopulation, education and access to basic healthcare and birth-control is vital.

[bush_cheney2004]

Lictor my friend. Do you know that the West throws away enough food to feed the entire world?

I think Mr. Lictor has departed the building, but I know what you mean. When parents would scold about starving children not having the food we rejected, I would say, "OK...ship it to them instead!". The problem is not enough food, the challenge is distribution.

Overpopulation. Is it a problem? Yes, of course. Especially in Africa where breeding is rampant. But the important question is "why"? Why is there overpopulation in developing countries? In the West, our population is going down. The 1960's brought a women's revolution. Our society now has access to birth control, therefore family sizes have dropped dramatically.

Almost true....not all "western" populations are decreasing.

In developing countries, most of the population doesn't have access to proper healthcare, let alone birth control. Women are forced to have sex by their husbands or other men, and children are born. Is it the man's fault that there is overpopulation? In some ways yes, but since most men (and women) in the most overly-populated countries are uneducated they don't even realize that they heck the outcome of their actions cause on a macro scale socially and economically.

Some cultures welcome more children, just like agrarian North America many years ago. It's not just about males raping women without birth control.

The way to fix the dreadful problems in developing countries is extremely complex. But to solve the problem of overpopulation, education and access to basic healthcare and birth-control is vital.

Very presumptuous conclusion.

[M.Dancer]

Very presumptuous conclusion.

I agree. Better roads, railways and ports would be easier..and create more jobs...

[Moonlight Graham]

The holidays are approaching, so let's bump this thread. This is something I struggle with every year, particularly because my husband is from a developing country. We always give something at Christmas time, but I certainly recognize that I spend excessively on my children and grandchild (soon to be grandchildren - this new baby isn't even born yet and I'm busy buying stuff!). How do we reconcile our "affluenza" in the West?

Thank you for bumping the thread. However, i think the problem in our society is just as you showed in a way (not to pick on you). Most people only tend to really think about the disadvantaged during the holiday season. You struggle with this every year? I think people should struggle with this every day, and it should be a problem near the top of our agenda politically and socially.

It's good to hear how you try to educate your children. I hope i can do as good a job when/if i ever have kids. Your husband is a lucky man to have immigrated to a wealthy nation, and all of us who are the among small minority in the world to live in wealthy countries (like Canada and the US) are also extremely lucky. The average refugee spends 17 years in a refugee camp before they are able to find a new country/place to call home. That's why i refer to your husband (and all of us) as lucky.

I have dedicated the last year of my life studying the issue of development as well as working among those in my local community who are among the most disadvantaged. The early conclusion i have come to is that poverty and development is an INCREDIBLY complex issue. The West has tried since WWII to help many countries with aid, and have many times failed and even made the situation worse (ie: you give a poor rural community in Africa some food aid, but this in turn hurts all the farmers and the overall economy in the area since most of the economy is agrarian and the food aid brings down the demand of local food sales and hence the prices and income to the local farmers drops). That's just one small example.

Development is just such a difficult issue to address. We have made a lot of gains overall during the past 60 years, but the problem still persists in a massive way. The development community still has much to learn also. From modernization theory, to dependency theory, to neo-liberalization, our approach to development and poverty in the world certainly has had its flaws, but also has helped many at the same time. The problem seems to be basically; even if we had all the money and the means to help, how do Western countries aid developing countries without causing more problems for them economically, socially, culturally, and politically? Also importantly, should we even help them at all if they do not want our help? And if they do want assistance, how do we provide them aid in a way in which they are able to determine their evolution for themselves at the grassroots level, and not just having the West impart our economical/political/cultural systems upon them (which would cause even more problems)?

Anyways, happy holidays to everyone! I've had a great year debating with you all.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

Very presumptuous conclusion.

I didn't mean it as a conclusion. I meant them as 2 important ingredients to the overall problem. I certainly do not know even 5% of the answers regarding development or over-population.

[Thomas Kwon]

...

Edited July 3, 2015 by Thomas Kwon

[Shady]

How can we all sleep at night knowing that many tens of thousands of people are dying every day due to preventable causes?

Well, one way we can help tens of thousands of people who are dying every day of preventalbe causes, is to stop listening to environmentalists. Several decades ago, "scientific consensus" argued that banning DDT was necessary because of harmful effects. At that time, third world countries were beginning to get a handle on the spread of many diseases, saving the lives of millions of people. Unfortunately, western governments listened to the "scientific consensus", and as a result, death and disease skyrocketed. Example:

"In Sri Lanka, in 1948, there were 2.8 million malaria cases and 7,300 malaria deaths. With widespread DDT use, malaria cases fell to 17 and no deaths in 1963. After DDT use was discontinued, Sri Lankan malaria cases rose to 2.5 million in the years 1968 and 1969, and the disease remains a killer in Sri Lanka today"

Link

Now we have the same eco-imperialists urging these countries not to modernize, not to evolve. And who will bare the brunt of these decisions? The same kind of people.

And please don't give me the "aid to 3rd world countries gets eaten up by corrupt dictators" B.S. excuse.

You may not want to hear the so-called excuse, but if Robert Mugabe or Kim Jong Ill refuse to allow people in to distribute aid, there isn't much we can do about it. Unless of course you're advocating regime change and armed conflict. Which I doubt. So the excuse you don't want to accept, is a pretty legitimate problem.

Ironically, that actually describes the United States.

That's not true. America spends more on healthcare than any other country on earth. It also dwarfs the American defense budget. So that may be a great sounding talking-point that most people will applaud. But what it gains in hyperbole, it lacks in truth.

As for our affluence and spending -- the fact is, if we didn't spend money and therefore support businesses (ie: other people), people wouldn't be earning money and there would be no money to help others.

Well said, and often overlooked.

[Riverwind]

Africans have evolved with r-strategy of ensuring survival of their offspring.Others, such as Europeans and East Asians, have evolved with k-strategy to ensure the survival of their offspring.

I believe such differences are cultural - not genetic. The poor in virtually every society adopt an r-strategy. When people become rich they move to a k-strategy.

[Thomas Kwon]

...

Edited July 3, 2015 by Thomas Kwon

[Riverwind]

I don't think culture affects how many eggs you produce. lol.

The number of eggs produced is much less relevant than the number of babies born. I have not seen evidence that difference races with the same income levels will have different amount of children.

[Thomas Kwon]

...

Edited July 3, 2015 by Thomas Kwon

[Riverwind]

I am talking about evolutionary biology. r-strategy is entrenched within African genetics. It will be much difficult for them to move to k-strategy when it's not in their genes.

Today, human evolution is dominated by culture - not biology. i.e. if you want to understand which individuals will propagate their genes you have to look at the culture in which they live. Looking at the biology is not enough.

[Thomas Kwon]

Today, human evolution is dominated by culture - not biology. i.e. if you want to understand which individuals will propagate their genes you have to look at the culture in which they live. Looking at the biology is not enough.

i am sorry, what?

evolution by definition involves genetics. culture may influence an individual's way of life, but not as much as genetics do. this can be confirmed through statistics in the united states, that blacks will have more children in general (and also more children in wedlock, teen age pregnancy, etc), yet they all come from the same american culture????

[Guest TrueMetis]

Kwon how about you learn something about biology before you start talking about? Seriously your bigoted crap is bad enough without your misguided belief that biology supports. If you knew anything about evolutionary biology you would now that in terms of evolution the parents with the higher birthrate and more offspring win. If you go by that yardstick Africa wins and we lose.

Edited December 23, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Riverwind]

evolution by definition involves genetics.

Evolution is about who can live long enough to reproduce and ensure their offspring survive. In human society culture and technology play a significant role in making those determinations.

[William Ashley]

How can we all sleep at night knowing that many tens of thousands of people are dying every day due to preventable causes?

Hellman, I probably can't even get into those countries without a visa, let alone volunteer to 'save them' without a visa.

The fact that you are reading this now proves you live in an industrialized country.

Really now, ever heard of satphone or ham radio?

We, as citizens of 1st world countries have been a dismal failure to the rest of our brothers and sisters of the human race.

Ur from nigeria arn't you?

I read this in a doctors office a few years ago:

This statistic disgusts me. So much so i ripped the page out of the magazine & brought it home with me. These numbers have only increased over the past few years. Where is our morality in all this? This holiday season we are busy buying Plasma TV's and Guitar Hero 3 for others, and for ourselves the rest of the year when at the same time people in 3rd world countries are dying at an alarming rate (and many living pretty pathetically in our own cities as well). Why don't we care much about people if they happen to live outside the artificial geographic borders we have constructed?

cold hearted bastard. I care. I'm just not allowed to kill people at whim or make plants grow by singing like the other demigods and dieties. I can only make birds by saying lines from Jungle Drum and Bass Tracks boom shawalawala etc..

maybe there is a way, but I just havn't found it yet. It's really hard without all that sun energy with all these grey winter skies.

And please don't give me the "aid to 3rd world countries gets eaten up by corrupt dictators" B.S. excuse. If we wanted to, we could give the aid directly to most people who need it.

I'm not very religious, but most of us in North America are Christian, and yet we are complete hypocrites in the teachings of Jesus.

Huh? Jesus didn't give out food did he, it was moses who made bread, what was that bread from rocks, I'm pretty darn sure it was moses. Jesus was a doctor, Moses the magi was a delivery person and he had ground rules he expected people to work from for the product, I'm pretty sure he took peoples gold too.

If he we alive today i'm sure he wouldn't be buying new rims for his truck or a Nintendo Wii while others are dying of disease & malnutrition not far away.

Dude man, he came back to life didn't you hear? Sure you can get that in video games.. but RL? 24 hour on call job... rough times, I'd think about quiting too.

This holiday season enjoy that warm fuzzy feeling when you give $50 to the local homeless shelter or Unicef, and enjoy the splendor afterwards when you go home to watch "Its a Wonderul Life" with your family on your 50" Plasma TV while an ocean away babies are drinking black water laced with human feces.

The Industrial Revolution has given us the wealth and the technology to do something to stop this. Poverty is the #1 problem facing humanity today, not empty paranoid nuclear threats, because people are ACTUALLY dying.

I'd die and stay dead too if life sucked. So far god has kept me alive, probably for obvious reasons... like it is getting worse and I havn't given up my humanness yet totally. I still sorta like the idea of frames of occurence rather than being with god without human limitation.. I'd kill too many people (they probably wouldn't be africans (except a bunch of nigerians.. hell someone has to give material for all those emails)

I believe we have absolutely no excuse for this B.S. to continue. It is fundamentally unethical. It is Nazi Germany x 1000.

Nazi's employed em' I think it's worse than Nazi Germany! Nazi's were low on resources, starvation everything near the end.

I want to know:

- do you care?

It is an unfortunate situation but it takes a solution to solve a problem. I'm geussing this final solution isn't in your palette. Martyrdom, Annihilation or Reception. It is where you are, there should be

a desire and sense of fullfillment in what we do.

- If not, why not?

- If you do care, what heck are you going to do about it?

About what? I could freeze or starve in days - you are a criminal or weathly - only the rich are impowered to act without support, as everything is owned in the world, or you exist outside the normative society.

It's them who let it happen, if you are empowered to act then that is it. Why arn't they doing it in their own countries.. why are their countries?