The Problem With Christmas

[Oleg Bach]

Actually if you read your history, the Chinese were far ahead of the Europeans. I think it would behove us to read and learn all we can about our wonderful democracies. Why are they where they are today?

We have special church services called Blue Christmas. Christmas is a sad and lonely time for a lot of people expecially seniors.

It's a sad and lonely time for all - WHO HAVE NO MONEY. If a person understands what Christmas really is - you will not be sad or lonely. For those that are sad and lonely - to bad - they deserve it for being dullards and never embracing Christain doctrine fully...It is a wonderful time of year. Joy to the world and to yourself - non-Christians enjoy it very much - for the simple fact that good and smart people ignore the state - ignore comsumerism - and just try to be a little more up and loving and carry the greatest gift you can give yourself and others...JOY.

[Canapathy]

Actually, I was right there with you until you brought up the part about not being Christian. The more I've come to undertsand the Truth, the more dismayed that I've become about Christmas, and the season becomes more difficult to endure. At the same time it dismays me the extent to which Christmas has come under attack by anti-Christians. Despite my issues with the date on which it occurs, I still feel that there has to be an outward recognition of Christ's birth, a time when people can together celebrate that great day. I don't know what kind of Christians you associate with, but in my circle Christmas is a very low key affair where the exchange of material goods is kept to a minimum.

The majority of the country considers themselves Christian and the majority also overspend on consumer crap.

Be careful when you use the word truth. Keep in mind that Christian beliefs are only considered truth to Christians.

I took my son to the local Santa Clause parade this year. He might have been too young as he was bored to tears (almost literally) and wanted to leave even before Santa rolled his giant ass down the main street. Although, I can't really blame him I was a little bored myself. The parade generally consisted of rolling advertisements with a couple plastic decorations thrown on. Moving billboard ads for Re/Max, the local towing company, etc. with an inflatable snowman stuck beside the company logo and group of cold, uniterested children waving to the crowd really aren't that interesting.

A couple Churches entered floats that were quite nice. One built a decent nativity scene the other had a choir of kids dressed as angels, lip-syncing Christmas carols. Both had banners telling us to keep the Christ in Christmas, which seems like an appropriate message for a Church to spread. Though I'm not religious and I disagree with the actions of some relgious organizations I have no problem with them advertising their beliefs and trying to drum up some new followers.

What did bother me a little though was that Scouts Canada advertised the same thing on their float. I wasn't bothered because I'm anti-Christian or am offended when people say Christmas, I just thought it was a stupid move for a youth organization, with members from all walks fo life, with widely varying beliefs, to spread not only a religious message but specifically a Christian one.

I guess first I should ask if Scouts Canada is a Christian organization...I didn't think it was but if so I have no real problem with it.

[Oleg Bach]

The majority of the country considers themselves Christian and the majority also overspend on consumer crap.

Be careful when you use the word truth. Keep in mind that Christian beliefs are only considered truth to Christians.

I took my son to the local Santa Clause parade this year. He might have been too young as he was bored to tears (almost literally) and wanted to leave even before Santa rolled his giant ass down the main street. Although, I can't really blame him I was a little bored myself. The parade generally consisted of rolling advertisements with a couple plastic decorations thrown on. Moving billboard ads for Re/Max, the local towing company, etc. with an inflatable snowman stuck beside the company logo and group of cold, uniterested children waving to the crowd really aren't that interesting.

A couple Churches entered floats that were quite nice. One built a decent nativity scene the other had a choir of kids dressed as angels, lip-syncing Christmas carols. Both had banners telling us to keep the Christ in Christmas, which seems like an appropriate message for a Church to spread. Though I'm not religious and I disagree with the actions of some relgious organizations I have no problem with them advertising their beliefs and trying to drum up some new followers.

What did bother me a little though was that Scouts Canada advertised the same thing on their float. I wasn't bothered because I'm anti-Christian or am offended when people say Christmas, I just thought it was a stupid move for a youth organization, with members from all walks fo life, with widely varying beliefs, to spread not only a religious message but specifically a Christian one.

I guess first I should ask if Scouts Canada is a Christian organization...I didn't think it was but if so I have no real problem with it.

Anti-christianism - sound like the scarey anti-christ ism......any doctrine formal or informal that goes contray to the teachings of Christ is anti-christism...so that would include the church - the courts the state and most people who are so cheap that they would not hand a man on the street bus fare that will be spent on wine for peaceful relief..benevolence and love and truth - any opposite to this is anti-christism - we don't have to wait for the anti-christ to arrive - we are here already...society in general is the beastly collective conspiring anti-christ of old. Now that I said that Merry and Joyful Christmas to you and lets forget about the faults of man and be sweet - maybe if we try the bitterness will disapate for a whole year...I love Christmas - and like I said - it is between me and God - and if others want to enter - welcome - lets not be negative about it.

[M.Dancer]

We got over newfie jokes a long time ago because they were offensive.

When will we ever get over this crap?

How about for CHRISTmas this year?

Why did it take a newfie 3 weeks to go from Wawa to Winnipeg?

He saw a sign that said "Clean Washroom 100 kilometres"

[M.Dancer]

You have one prejudice left, MDancer, and I am going to call you on it: Obviously your affluent neighbourhood doesn't include any Aboriginal Canadians. Is this what you will teach your kids?

I think it would be fun if we gave them stone axes and spears and ask then to settle their competing claims in a traditional fashion.

How can you in one breath romantisize the traditionalists and in another deny their traditional past times?

Let Indians be Indian.

[M.Dancer]

Only one?

About 5 actually...I won't even let cheap scotch into the house is at the top of my list, a hair above new age anything.....

[M.Dancer]

Actually, North American archaeology has proven that Natives were smelting and working non-ferrous metals nearly 3000 years before Europeans discovered the process. Europeans also had to steal the secret of gunpowder from the Chinese, not having the intelligent capacity to invent it themselves.

And that explain the tinfoil hat......

No really...if somewhere there was metalurgy....and I'm not saying someone didn't throw a rock on a fire and lo, it smelted....if somewhere they wrked metal, thye musty have done a piss-ass job of it because not one nation, tribe, village hut or cave did it become the tool of choice.

[M.Dancer]

Wow. You really hate white people eh?

Must be hard living with all that hate inside you.

Edit to add: I love the consumerism! It's the crappy presents that I hate which I usually get from people that say they hate the 'consumerism' of Christmas but in truth are just too lazy and self-involved to get a present that is truly touching.

And the food! yum!!

I hear ya. I got an executive pool table last year formthe secret santa....Executive pool table? It fits in my briefcase!!!

[Oleg Bach]

And that explain the tinfoil hat......

No really...if somewhere there was metalurgy....and I'm not saying someone didn't throw a rock on a fire and lo, it smelted....if somewhere they wrked metal, thye musty have done a piss-ass job of it because not one nation, tribe, village hut or cave did it become the tool of choice.

Let me interupt - we have a Hollywood version of what North America was prior to European arrival. The imagine is of a few thousand scattered bare bummed savages just dieing to be white and embrace civilization - and the natives that were non-compliant to the advance of Europeans were gently pushed out the way and a few were killed. The impression is that there really was no one here.

From what I understand there were 75 million natural inhabitants. They had trade routes - a religious system - a God...monitary systems...it was a frinking nation.. Today we look at our native folks as just drunken poorly bred losers who look for change to buy crack in front of the liquor store - and yes crack cocaine has in part replace the alcohol abuse of the bygone era.

If you look at some of the Natives who pass by my house near the core of Toronto - you will see grand and impressive men that are 6 foort three - bold and pround and they are certainly decendants of ancient kings.. They have maintained and walk along knowing that the land is gone - that they were over thrown and kicked to the bottom of society - this happens to all - some of the great grand children of the most powerful families in Canada who are white - now are the lowest of the low - rich is not forever nor is poor - the First Nations do have great people and great breeding still - but it is going to take a long time to recover from the geneocide..but they survived - and long after we are gone from this land and it can happen - some of them will still be here and will embrace the earth and regrow.

[M.Dancer]

From what I understand there were 75 million natural inhabitants.

That would be on the aggressively high side of the estimate. on the low side is around 9 million. The middle would be 40 million and that is for south and north america with the high population in the more culturally and technologically advanced south.

To put it into perspective, the pop. of western Europe in the 16th century was probably no more that 45 million. And they had the benefit of the plow and beasties of burden

Edited November 23, 2007 by M.Dancer

[Canapathy]

I guess first I should ask if Scouts Canada is a Christian organization...I didn't think it was but if so I have no real problem with it.

I had a minute to look up the answer to my own question. I was a Beaver and for a brief period a Cub until it conflicted with some of my other sports and hobbies as a kid. I remember the mottos "Do your best" and "Be prepared"...but in addition to the mottos they also have laws and promises. Maybe I was just unaware of the promises when I was a kid or mayber they are new but they definitely say that Scouts Canada is a Christian org.

Beaver Promise: I promise to love God and help take care of the world.

Wolfcub Promise: I promise to do my best To love and serve God, to do my duty to the Queen; To keep the law of the Wolf Cub pack, And to do a good turn for somebody every day.

"Scouting is based on three broad principles which represent its fundamental beliefs. These include: Duty To God, Duty To Others, Duty To Self"

Live an learn...this is probably a well known fact that just eluded me all these years. Anyway, I take bake my annoyance with the Scouts spreading a Christian specific message.

[Fortunata]

Getting back to Christmas ............

I love Christmas - all the decorating, the food, the preparation! We were relatively monetarily poor (in contrast to "townpeople") so most of our presents were home made, a tradition we still follow. There are five kids (now 4 with kids of their own) and we draw names and the present has to be home made. The only store-bought presents are between spouses (maybe), the "Santa" presents to the kids and if our parents need anything that they don't have, has broken, worn out, etc., we kids get together to buy it for them. This year my home-made present is a crocheted bedcover that I have been working on for 4 years for my sister-in-law that I "arranged" to draw her name. Such fun.

And since my mom is a cook without equal, Christmas dinner is spectacular!

[Oleg Bach]

Getting back to Christmas ............

I love Christmas - all the decorating, the food, the preparation! We were relatively monetarily poor (in contrast to "townpeople") so most of our presents were home made, a tradition we still follow. There are five kids (now 4 with kids of their own) and we draw names and the present has to be home made. The only store-bought presents are between spouses (maybe), the "Santa" presents to the kids and if our parents need anything that they don't have, has broken, worn out, etc., we kids get together to buy it for them. This year my home-made present is a crocheted bedcover that I have been working on for 4 years for my sister-in-law that I "arranged" to draw her name. Such fun.

And since my mom is a cook without equal, Christmas dinner is spectacular!

Awh...........Christmas - did you make that up? Sounds so fanceful and traditional..I was there for the moment as you told the tale...a wonderful Christmas with out worry or stress. That's what I don't like..a time of year when there should be total peace in the household and people are worried..not good....best to let joy rule!

[Fortunata]

Awh...........Christmas - did you make that up? Sounds so fanceful and traditional..I was there for the moment as you told the tale...a wonderful Christmas with out worry or stress. That's what I don't like..a time of year when there should be total peace in the household and people are worried..not good....best to let joy rule!

No, didn't make it up. In my teenage years I did not appreciate home-made; everyone else was getting walkmans, discmans, nintendo's. But now I appreciate it and the brothers are teaching their kids (and wives) to appreciate it. The bedspread probably cost a small fortune if I ever added it all up but she will cry when she sees it as it is a replica (or as close as I could get it) to a family heirloom that happened to get passed on to her sister. Her reaction is actually keeping me awake at night, I'm so excited (so ok, I'm still like a kid). What can I say ... I love Christmas.

[Oleg Bach]

No, didn't make it up. In my teenage years I did not appreciate home-made; everyone else was getting walkmans, discmans, nintendo's. But now I appreciate it and the brothers are teaching their kids (and wives) to appreciate it. The bedspread probably cost a small fortune if I ever added it all up but she will cry when she sees it as it is a replica (or as close as I could get it) to a family heirloom that happened to get passed on to her sister. Her reaction is actually keeping me awake at night, I'm so excited (so ok, I'm still like a kid). What can I say ... I love Christmas.

That's alot of work and that's a lot of love - and to create some justice at the same time through a bed spread that could not be cut in half but passed to one and not the other. Talk about making things right - and doing it with your own hands...that is a terrific story..the bed spread really took the idea that is real Christian democracy to it's very root - fairness for all even if you have to make things fair that do not exist..miracle. You made a miracle happen..no wonder you are excieted to see the effect.

[Posit]

Native people have NEVER been conquered. In fact the government is still very much afraid of them.

Christmas is a sham. It is isn't real and is filled with obligations, demands, disappointments, disillusionment, depression and a whole lot of not so good feelings in reality. The consumerism is built on that shame where retailers guilt people to buy and overspend. Then after all the gift-giving people stuff their faces. In anticipation of that Christian sanctioned gluttony, the shamed impose themselves on the poor in an attempt to offset the guilt they feel of eating more than their share. The other 364 days of the year they could care less about poor people eating......

If you want it real fro get about the superfluous and unappreciated gifts and make a commitment to donate to different amounts throughout the year.

Christmas is a colossal waste of time, energy and money.

[guyser]

Getting back to Christmas ............

I love Christmas - all the decorating, the food, the preparation! We were relatively monetarily poor (in contrast to "townpeople") so most of our presents were home made, a tradition we still follow. There are five kids (now 4 with kids of their own) and we draw names and the present has to be home made. The only store-bought presents are between spouses (maybe), the "Santa" presents to the kids and if our parents need anything that they don't have, has broken, worn out, etc., we kids get together to buy it for them. This year my home-made present is a crocheted bedcover that I have been working on for 4 years for my sister-in-law that I "arranged" to draw her name. Such fun.

And since my mom is a cook without equal, Christmas dinner is spectacular!

One can only hope she doesn't re-gift it.

But I have to agree with you. My sister has made many gifts , or rather sewn many , and frankly I can recall all of them. She's smart, she sews things that are timeless , fleece vests one year, and I think I am in year 7 with it, I wear it all the time at the cottage.

I have 15 family members to buy for and it does seem a waste. Now due to distance, some members dont come until the new year or later......so damn, I shop for them when the boxing day sales are on.

[Frankie]

Yah, I don't know where I stand on this. I mean, I really hate those commercials, and I guess the whole idea of buying junk and crap really bugs me, but on the other hand, I've always really enjoyed Christmas, and I like the idea of family getting together and coming from other countries to visit. I also like the idea of parents buying presents for their young kids, as I enjoyed when I was young. I think it just might be the whole expectation of buying things for other people and stuff. Or maybe it's just the exploitation of the holiday that I see on TV and internet, it's really annoying and cheesy. One thing I know for sure is that I think it's good to buy for your children at a young age, like maybe up untill they're 11 or so, after that it seems like spoiling.

I had my last family gathering birthday when I was 12, and my parents thought I was getting too old for that. Which makes sense. But the other day I was at my 17 year old cousins birthday, and it just seemed really wierd that people were buying this 17 year old girl, coats, and bags, and jewellry. The whole experience felt like she was turning 10. And on top of that, she picked out a lot of the stuff family members bought her.

I guess this is the same how I feel towards christmas. Parents buying their teenagers video games, or cloths, or eletronics. I'd feel wierd, like a child, if my parents would have done that to me. Maybe that's my problem with christmas.

[jbg]

Anyway, I came across this article about the holiday season and consumerism that sums up my feeling about Christmas time almost perfectly. Not being Christian or religious at all, I really don’t give a crap about celebrating the birth of Jesus, but other than that this story is a perfect fit.

Still I find it amusing that an atheist (or maybe agnostic…not really sure what definition I fall under but I really don’t care to debate it anyway) like me would prefer to celebrate this holiday in a way that the man it was named for would approve of more, while my Christian friends and family prefer to trade thousands of dollars worth of crap back and forth…and in their eyes I’m Grinch-like.

I also came across this article...now this is a holiday tradition I can really get into....one that literally requires zero effort on my part.

Celebrate Buy Nothing Day on Friday; no purchase necessary

I am reviving this thread rather than starting new thread on essentially this topic.

First, I will state that I am Jewish and thus have no particular "dog in this hunt". That being said, I am a bankruptcy lawyer as well.

On November 28, 2010 I took my children to the local Walmart to pick up a birthday gift for my wife. I saw the store thronged with shoppers. Most of them had infants or small children in tow. It was clear, from looking at their clothing or listening to them talk that these were not people of wealth. Most seemed to be lower middle class. Most also had shopping carts overflowing with what appeared to be gifts. Songs like "Frosty the Snowman" and "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" filled the speakers in the store. Children were hoping "Santa" would deliver all kinds of gifts that they had seen on TV commercials.

As a bankruptcy lawyer (even though generally I do not handle personal cases) I am very concerned that most of these people cannot afford to indulge their childrens' every wish and fancy. Indeed, many of the gifts will lie unused after the return of the children to school on January 3, 2011. By the end of the school year many of the children will have outgrown the toys anyway. And put bluntly, these are not people who can afford to waste money.

These people will be paying, on installment credit, ultra-high interest to finance gifts that they cannot afford. I am almost as distressed when I see this spectacle as when I see similar people betting a week's paycheck on "Horse No. 6" at the track.

[bush_cheney2004]

....These people will be paying, on installment credit, ultra-high interest to finance gifts that they cannot afford. I am almost as distressed when I see this spectacle as when I see similar people betting a week's paycheck on "Horse No. 6" at the track.

That's OK...."these people" are also paying taxes to local, state and federal government with a much larger credit problem.

[maple_leafs182]

The biggest problem I see with Christmas besides the whole material aspect of it.

What is up with this Santa Clause guy. Isn't one of the ten commandments thou shall not lie. Why are all the Christians so cool with lying to their kids.

[jbg]

The biggest problem I see with Christmas besides the whole material aspect of it.

What is up with this Santa Clause guy. Isn't one of the ten commandments thou shall not lie. Why are all the Christians so cool with lying to their kids.

No, the commandment is "thou shalt not bear false witness". Very different than "thou shalt not lie".

[dre]

No, the commandment is "thou shalt not bear false witness". Very different than "thou shalt not lie".

Ahhh no. Not really.

[sharkman]

I am reviving this thread rather than starting new thread on essentially this topic.

First, I will state that I am Jewish and thus have no particular "dog in this hunt". That being said, I am a bankruptcy lawyer as well.

On November 28, 2010 I took my children to the local Walmart to pick up a birthday gift for my wife. I saw the store thronged with shoppers. Most of them had infants or small children in tow. It was clear, from looking at their clothing or listening to them talk that these were not people of wealth. Most seemed to be lower middle class. Most also had shopping carts overflowing with what appeared to be gifts. Songs like "Frosty the Snowman" and "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" filled the speakers in the store. Children were hoping "Santa" would deliver all kinds of gifts that they had seen on TV commercials.

As a bankruptcy lawyer (even though generally I do not handle personal cases) I am very concerned that most of these people cannot afford to indulge their childrens' every wish and fancy. Indeed, many of the gifts will lie unused after the return of the children to school on January 3, 2011. By the end of the school year many of the children will have outgrown the toys anyway. And put bluntly, these are not people who can afford to waste money.

These people will be paying, on installment credit, ultra-high interest to finance gifts that they cannot afford. I am almost as distressed when I see this spectacle as when I see similar people betting a week's paycheck on "Horse No. 6" at the track.

It's the same thing, although generally a higher class of wage earners, that bought way more house than they could afford and now teeter on the brink of bankruptcy. As much as I value democracy and free will, I see more and more than it's a system that must have a people that are moral and self controlled.

Also there is something wrong with our society when retailers' whole year depends on whether they have a good christmas season. Is it greed that has us demanding ever lower prices at the expense of people trying to make a living retailing or manufacturing in our own countries? I can't say I've figured it all out as some do around here, but something is definitely wrong with this picture when so many jobs go overseas and the banks have us using credit cards to buy groceries.

[Oleg Bach]

Christmas is about power..taking authority over your life and using love and benevolence as a tool to conquer stupidity and evil..consumerism is the anti-Christ..pay it no heed..be Christ like and carry yourself like a gentle king...and be like me - where recieving is better than giving - I have not bought a Christmas gift ever - but I love getting them.