US/Russia/ China/Iran

[Topaz]

I wonder how the rest of the world is thinking about the US about to put sanctions on Iran and Russia and China telling the US, that's NOT a good idea. Are Bush and Cheney so stupid to think they can take on Russia and China? The sanction will only hurt the people more than the gov't. Bush/Cheney are eager to go into this Iran, they only prove that ANY country with the BOMB, can be dangerous and this only proves to the voters of the US, they really need to know who they are putting in charge! I wished that when situation happen like this, the countries in question should make the leaders themselves, into a duel, and this would save millions of lives! Bush/Cheney vs Putin/ Iran

[ScottSA]

I wonder how the rest of the world is thinking about the US about to put sanctions on Iran and Russia and China telling the US, that's NOT a good idea. Are Bush and Cheney so stupid to think they can take on Russia and China? The sanction will only hurt the people more than the gov't. Bush/Cheney are eager to go into this Iran, they only prove that ANY country with the BOMB, can be dangerous and this only proves to the voters of the US, they really need to know who they are putting in charge! I wished that when situation happen like this, the countries in question should make the leaders themselves, into a duel, and this would save millions of lives! Bush/Cheney vs Putin/ Iran

Here we go again, with a replay of the left in Iraq. Sanctions are imposed, and the left spends the next decade inventing statistics and yowling about the "tremendous human cost." Then war comes, and the left steps up the yowling about more "tremendous human cost," and pines for the good auld days of sanctions, which in retrospect were seen to be working after all. Now, apparently, some on the left want to re-enact the ancient Germanic and medievalist custom of single combat. What's next? The rack? Drawing and quartering?

The fact of the matter is that the US at this point in history can, by strategic doctrine, take on both China and Russia and win, quite easily. The wars, at least, if not the occupations. Not even the British Empire at it's height bothered to try occupying China in perpetual colonial force.

[MMT]

I wonder how the rest of the world is thinking about the US about to put sanctions on Iran and Russia and China telling the US, that's NOT a good idea. Are Bush and Cheney so stupid to think they can take on Russia and China? The sanction will only hurt the people more than the gov't. Bush/Cheney are eager to go into this Iran, they only prove that ANY country with the BOMB, can be dangerous and this only proves to the voters of the US, they really need to know who they are putting in charge! I wished that when situation happen like this, the countries in question should make the leaders themselves, into a duel, and this would save millions of lives! Bush/Cheney vs Putin/ Iran

Well, yeah "the sanction will only hurt the people more than the gov't". But perhaps as a next step the people could change their mind because of the sanction and deliver kind of message to their gov'ts or even change the gov'ts?

[Leafless]

Now, apparently, some on the left want to re-enact the ancient Germanic and medievalist custom of single combat. What's next? The rack? Drawing and quartering?

No need to strain your brain over this one.

Climate change or disease will probably conquer all.

[Higgly]

Sanctions on Iran. Now there's a concept. So they stop trading with the west and start trading with the east. Bush was out of his league the day he took the job. I guess that's why they call it the Bush leagues

Edited October 26, 2007 by Higgly

[ScottSA]

Sanctions on Iran. Now there's a concept. So they stop trading with the west and start trading with the east. Bush was out of his league the day he took the job. I guess that's why they call it the Bush leagues

That's why war is a better option, no?

[Higgly]

That's why war is a better option, no?

No problem. Why not gather together all those who believe that invading Iran is a good idea and form a little group? Get yourself a little boat and a little gun, and head on over there. We'll be right behind you.

[DogOnPorch]

The Russians are back to making stategic patrols and conducting training exercises with their fleet of

and

which is something we haven't seen since the Cold War days. They've been spotted off Norway (passing 'close' to a NATO summit...lol), Japan and Canada so far.... While these flights are not really a threat, they are showing the flag and testing air defences of their old NATO rivals...and their classic foe, the Japanese.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=...Russian+bombers

China, while having a huge army, is still not capable of projecting this power around the globe...at least militarily. Smallish navy...few transports. Questions still remain about reforms inside the PLA after their very poor showing against plucky Viet-nam back in the late 70s. A primitive command control structure has been the Chinese military's curse since its creation. This problem is probably now only just starting to change due to the availabilty of advanced electronics.

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One man with a gun can control 100 without one.

---Vladimir Lenin

Edited October 26, 2007 by DogOnPorch

[Higgly]

China, while having a huge army, is still not capable of projecting this power around the globe...at least militarily. Smallish navy...few transports. Questions still remain about reforms inside the PLA after their very poor showing against plucky Viet-nam back in the late 70s. A primitive command control structure has been the Chinese military's curse since its creation. This problem is probably now only just starting to change due to the availabilty of advanced electronics.

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One man with a gun can control 100 without one.

---Vladimir Lenin

Wait until somebody tries to mess with their interests in Africa !

[ScottSA]

Wait until somebody tries to mess with their interests in Africa !

What do you imagine will happen? They don't have the force projection capability to float themselves to Taiwan, much less Africa. Since the PLA is semi-autonomous, it's not even clear that they'd embark on the orders of the central government even if they DID have a massive armoured junk building initiative.

I know it pains the left no end, but while the "Chinese Century" makes good book fodder, it is far more likey to descend into another century or so of warlordism than it is the be the next global hegemon. And that makes it more dangerous than ever, but not the way you think.

[Higgly]

What do you imagine will happen? They don't have the force projection capability to float themselves to Taiwan, much less Africa. Since the PLA is semi-autonomous, it's not even clear that they'd embark on the orders of the central government even if they DID have a massive armoured junk building initiative.

I know it pains the left no end, but while the "Chinese Century" makes good book fodder, it is far more likey to descend into another century or so of warlordism than it is the be the next global hegemon. And that makes it more dangerous than ever, but not the way you think.

They have an entire world class commercial airline full of big airplanes. Don't think for a moment they would not commandeer it if it suits their purposes. This is not a country that is operating under the same constraints we are.

[bush_cheney2004]

They have an entire world class commercial airline full of big airplanes. Don't think for a moment they would not commandeer it if it suits their purposes. This is not a country that is operating under the same constraints we are.

Doesn't mean squat without air superiority, logistics, communications, training, experience, and will to act, which much to your chagrin, the USA has in abundance. Yep...those damn 'merkins just flipped off China and Russia and invaded Iraq anyway...imagine that!

[ScottSA]

They have an entire world class commercial airline full of big airplanes. Don't think for a moment they would not commandeer it if it suits their purposes. This is not a country that is operating under the same constraints we are.

I can just see fleets of passenger airplanes transporting hordes of angry yellow peril to Africa over US aegis destroyer pickets, aircraft carriers, and squadrons of fighters picking them off 10 at a time. Are you serious?

Oh, and btw, the US or Canada wouldn't hesitate for one second to commandeer any national airline it wanted in the event of war. We're not operating under those constraints either.

[DogOnPorch]

Airliners...lol. Yeah...that would be messy. By transport I mean amphibious capability...and the abilty to protect said transports. Even if they managed to refit the old Soviet carrier they bought, it is simply not possible. Cruise missiles alone would claim the bulk of any Red Chinese fleet.

Yes, China wants to BE a Superpower...but the reality is still quite some ways off.

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A lot of holes in the desert, and a lot of problems are buried in those holes. But you gotta do it right. I mean, you gotta have the hole already dug before you show up with a package in the trunk. Otherwise, you're talking about a half-hour to forty-five minutes worth of digging. And who knows who's gonna come along in that time? Pretty soon, you gotta dig a few more holes. You could be there all f**kin' night.

---Nicky Santoro (Joe Pesci)

[Higgly]

Doesn't mean squat without air superiority, logistics, communications, training, experience, and will to act, which much to your chagrin, the USA has in abundance. Yep...those damn 'merkins just flipped off China and Russia and invaded Iraq anyway...imagine that!

I can just see fleets of passenger airplanes transporting hordes of angry yellow peril to Africa over US aegis destroyer pickets, aircraft carriers, and squadrons of fighters picking them off 10 at a time. Are you serious?

Oh, and btw, the US or Canada wouldn't hesitate for one second to commandeer any national airline it wanted in the event of war. We're not operating under those constraints either.

Airliners...lol. Yeah...that would be messy. By transport I mean amphibious capability...and the abilty to protect said transports. Even if they managed to refit the old Soviet carrier they bought, it is simply not possible. Cruise missiles alone would claim the bulk of any Red Chinese fleet.

Yes, China wants to BE a Superpower...but the reality is still quite some ways off.

I have to admit that I don't know a lot about military logistics, but then looking at you three, I'd say that's a good thing

[Argus]

I can just see fleets of passenger airplanes transporting hordes of angry yellow peril to Africa over US aegis destroyer pickets, aircraft carriers, and squadrons of fighters picking them off 10 at a time. Are you serious?

It's wishful thinking. The far left desperately wants to see the emergence of some kind of powerful agency, however murderous, be it brutal communist kleptocracy, vicious Chinese communism, or insanely barbaric Islamic fascism, so it can challenge and push back the evil Yankee capitalists.

Much of the left would support ANY entity which threatened American supremacy. If the devil came to Earth and parked himself in Liberia and began challenging the Americans the Left would flock to his side.

[GostHacked]

Doesn't mean squat without air superiority, logistics, communications, training, experience, and will to act, which much to your chagrin, the USA has in abundance. Yep...those damn 'merkins just flipped off China and Russia and invaded Iraq anyway...imagine that!

I should remind you how the World Trade Center was taken down my commercial aircraft. With minimal logistics, communication, training or experience.

They definately had the will to act. Don't think this cannot possibly happen again.

The attacks don't have to be large scale to make a huge impact.

[ScottSA]

I should remind you how the World Trade Center was taken down my commercial aircraft. With minimal logistics, communication, training or experience.

They definately had the will to act. Don't think this cannot possibly happen again.

The attacks don't have to be large scale to make a huge impact.

It almost undoubtably will happen again. However, committing a significantly disrupting terrorist act and occupying Africa are two different things. Just ask Lord Chelmsford.

[sharkman]

I should remind you how the World Trade Center was taken down my commercial aircraft. With minimal logistics, communication, training or experience.

They definately had the will to act. Don't think this cannot possibly happen again.

The attacks don't have to be large scale to make a huge impact.

You're not suggesting China will use this tactic are you? No, of course not. So how can China project its power or move large portions of its military around the globe? Answer: it can't. Barbarians may try to knock down more buildings (although they've been unable to equal that feat, or any feat in the U.S. since), but they can't invade countries, although with the hooligan dance they do after bombs go off, you'd think France just fell.

[Higgly]

It's wishful thinking. The far left desperately wants to see the emergence of some kind of powerful agency, however murderous, be it brutal communist kleptocracy, vicious Chinese communism, or insanely barbaric Islamic fascism, so it can challenge and push back the evil Yankee capitalists.

Much of the left would support ANY entity which threatened American supremacy. If the devil came to Earth and parked himself in Liberia and began challenging the Americans the Left would flock to his side.

The far right invented Realpolitik and now spends most of its time trying to pretend it doesn't exist.

It almost undoubtably will happen again. However, committing a significantly disrupting terrorist act and occupying Africa are two different things. Just ask Lord Chelmsford.

Yes they are, but then things were different in Chelmsford's day, wot?

I thought I'd let you lot mix it up a bit before I came in with my usual cold shower of irrefutable logic...

Firstly, yes, the Government of Canada can commandeer the airlines, but the scrutiny around this sort of thing is intense and we would have to be at death's door before they got away with it. China, on the other hand....

Superpowers do not directly confront each other in ground wars anymore. It is simply too dangerous. What they may lack in ground deployment logistics, they make up for in ICBM and nuclear ( or is that nuke-u-lar?) armament. China is easily within reach of US soil, even by virtue of modest missile capability.

Yes superpowers do engage in ground wars, but only with much less powerful states they think they can bully. Of course, they often overestimate their capacity to bully and underestimate the capacity of the smaller state to resist: Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam....

Instead of confronting each other directly, superpowers fight proxy wars through client states. Were China's interests in Africa to be threatened, it wouldn't be by the US directly, at least not by a US government run by a sane White House.... oh wait...

It would be by some other smaller state that may or may not be acting independently. If it is a small state acting on its own, only God is going to be able to help it given the resources the Chinese could throw behind their proxy. If it is by a small state acting as a proxy state for another superpower, then I would not doubt for a minute that the frequency of Chinese airline flights into the region would increase substantially. What do you think the chances are that another superpower would attack a 747 full of Chinese soldiers, supplies, what have you? Oh wait, make that "advisors, trade goods..."

Edited October 27, 2007 by Higgly

[DogOnPorch]

China has no real military lift capability beyond some rather small transport planes. Nothing big enough to move a tank...and they don't let tanks on 747s...unless they're in a clear plastic bag.

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Your door is a jar...your window, a carrot.

[Higgly]

China has no real military lift capability beyond some rather small transport planes. Nothing big enough to move a tank...and they don't let tanks on 747s...unless they're in a clear plastic bag.

So if you were to, let's say, reconfigure a 747, could you get a tank on board? Of course supposing Chinese security would let it rumble through the departure lounge... In any case, do you really think the Chinese, with the extraordinary loot they have in their treasury right now, would have any problem assembling that sort of capability?

Edited October 27, 2007 by Higgly

[bush_cheney2004]

I should remind you how the World Trade Center was taken down my commercial aircraft. With minimal logistics, communication, training or experience.

They definately had the will to act. Don't think this cannot possibly happen again.

The attacks don't have to be large scale to make a huge impact.

The WTC was bombed with a truck years before that.

Timothy McVeigh didn't need commercial aircraft either....but nobody equates him with an invasion by China or Russia.

But thanks for the reminder anyway.......

[bush_cheney2004]

So if you were to, let's say, reconfigure a 747, could you get a tank on board? Of course supposing Chinese security would let it rumble through the departure lounge... In any case, do you really think the Chinese, with the extraordinary loot they have in their treasury right now, would have any problem assembling that sort of capability?

And that's when these peanut gallery discussions about who will challenge the big bad "West" degenerate into ifs, maybes, and buts....all while America and NATO have actually done these things.

I am sure the Chinese could eventually copy anything that has already been done by others many times.

Today Taiwan...tomorrow..the WORLD!

[ScottSA]

The far right invented Realpolitik and now spends most of its time trying to pretend it doesn't exist.

Yes they are, but then things were different in Chelmsford's day, wot?

I thought I'd let you lot mix it up a bit before I came in with my usual cold shower of irrefutable logic...

Firstly, yes, the Government of Canada can commandeer the airlines, but the scrutiny around this sort of thing is intense and we would have to be at death's door before they got away with it. China, on the other hand....

"Firstly" is a phrase I used to try to break first year students of. Second, the US, to name one example, has a standing ability to commandeer airlines any damned time they want in an emergency, and I strongly suspect canada does too. They don't need to be "at death's door" any more than China does, although like China, it doesn't make economic sense to do it on a weekly basis.

Superpowers do not directly confront each other in ground wars anymore. It is simply too dangerous. What they may lack in ground deployment logistics, they make up for in ICBM and nuclear ( or is that nuke-u-lar?) armament. China is easily within reach of US soil, even by virtue of modest missile capability.

Yes it is, which is why we have nuclear deterrence...something you lot spent the last two decades trying to get rid of. The cost to Chinese value targets through deflection and second strike capability would be far more than the cost to the US, so that's not something China is about to try.

Yes superpowers do engage in ground wars, but only with much less powerful states they think they can bully. Of course, they often overestimate their capacity to bully and underestimate the capacity of the smaller state to resist: Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam....

What in God's name are you talking about?

Instead of confronting each other directly, superpowers fight proxy wars through client states. Were China's interests in Africa to be threatened, it wouldn't be by the US directly, at least not by a US government run by a sane White House.... oh wait...

Oh, so the lift capacity you told us a moment ago that we all laughed at doesn't matter anymore?

It would be by some other smaller state that may or may not be acting independently. If it is a small state acting on its own, only God is going to be able to help it given the resources the Chinese could throw behind their proxy. If it is by a small state acting as a proxy state for another superpower, then I would not doubt for a minute that the frequency of Chinese airline flights into the region would increase substantially. What do you think the chances are that another superpower would attack a 747 full of Chinese soldiers, supplies, what have you? Oh wait, make that "advisors, trade goods..."

So you seem to be confused. A minute ago you were educating us about proxy wars and here you are back at flying Chinese soldiers again.

The chances that planes full of chinese soldiers flying into Africa would be attacked are quite good, actually. There would almost certainly be military transport planes with substantial air defence flying US soldiers in the other end of Africa at the same time anyway. Whatever happened to the proxy wars you spoke of? And who do you think would win a proxy war in Africa? I recommend to you the outcomes of various proxy wars in Africa over the last four decades.