moderateamericain

nice backed up quotes dogonporch, way to produce nothing but conjecture fig. as for the topic, at hand. Why on god's green earth would the Iranian government take British personel is beyond me. Britain has been reducing and pulling out of troops out of Iraq for what 2 months now? The last thing they need is the Ire of Europe. And if they get real dumb about it and turn European sentiment against them, there will be a war in Iran. And it will not end well for Iran's government or its people for that matter.

I'm an American. I make judgments on very few people that i meet regardless of where they are from. What I find funny is that the American culture is a combination of other cultures. I am German, Irish, Scotch, Dutch, Cherokee, Welsh. I can understand French vaguely I read it better. I'm learning German. And can speak a little Cherokee. Which is practically a dead Language (my grandpa was a full blooded Cherokee). I've seen more of the world then probably 80 percent of the people in it. But no matter where I go I can't run from the fact that I was BORN in the USA. You know what I say to that? TOUGH SHIT FOR YOU! If you don't like me because of where I'm from blow it out your stuck up rear end. Here is the really skinny for you Canadians who maybe do not know this. Americans DONT CARE who likes them. At all.

Ahh obsidian I have you. I was under the impression that you lived in America, but by your post you do not in fact live here. Your theory here is best on your cousin and a few spring breakers? Thats a fairly small sample size there mate. I have lived in the United States all my life. (well except when abroad for months at a time) I can assure you that at this time your fear of an American police state is a bit far off. Unless some drastic even occurs and the economy collapses I doubt you will have to worry about a flood of refugees coming north. You have to keep in mind that what you read online by Americans is mostly from people who are either extreme right or extreme left viewing. Your average American is neither.

I think what we need to define here, and where the confusion lies, is what are we defining. Even assuming that 200,000 children have died under the age of 5 from 1992-present the Fliers being handed out were deliberately vague and left you the impression that because of US presence in the Iraq that 200k children dropped dead. Which is clearly not the case. I wish i still had the flier so I could right down everything exactly as it was written. And Has health care really dropped off that much in Iraq? Does anyone have an sources to site that? Because i KNOW they have put up new hospitals in some of the Medium to Large size communities. Such as earlier stated Fallujah which has modern medical equipment. " Personally, I don't see anything wrong with being anti-Bush (are we not at least supposed to have the illusion of democracy anymore?), and I don't think anyone wants to be considered PRO-war. Well, maybe some do, I don't know. But you've misquoted the claim of the pamphleteer -- it was 20,000 children killed, not 200,000. Please don't fall into the modern day conservative's debate tactic of inflating the outrage or inventing falsehoods you can easily tear apart. Next thing you know, you'll be saying liberals are blaming Bush for 2,000,000 children's deaths." No theres nothing wrong with being anti bush, i was pointing that out because had i pulled that source from a Conservative site, I automatically would have been told its not a good estimate simply from being from a Conservative site. My point is a soldiers experiences on the ground are tenfold more relevant then some Liberal/conservative opinion writer who has not even been there. And NOBODY can make me think otherwise on that. Until you've been there your only reading what others think about it.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02...main/index.html http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/21/news/iraq.php http://www.iraqbodycount.org/editorial_feb0704.php "gives an estimate for deaths directly by US forces (does not include natural causes and terrorist attacks) So far, in the "war on terror" initiated since 9-11, the USA and its allies have been responsible for over 13,000 civilian deaths, not only the 10,000+ in Iraq, but also 3,000+ civilian deaths in Afghanistan, another death toll that continues to rise long after the world's attention has moved on." So really the death toll by the US is really only at around 13k. Wheres the rest of those deaths coming from? and this source is blatantly anti Bush and anti war. It also goes on to say that American deaths due to para-military forces amounts to 3375 killed. This is why i believe the amount of children killed by US forces cannot be even close to 200,000 children. Its also why i believe the majority of deaths in Iraq have been perpetrated by Iraqis or foreign Terrorist. And on top of that I seen the bastards do it with my own two peepers.

I think it doesn't matter. Citizens and resident aliens were interned during WW2 in Canada and the US by similar measures. The internments were upheld in court. That's why Canada added all the Charter of Rights disclaimers. So was America the Arsenal of Freedom or a Police State in 1942? Answer: it was both. I cannot think of an example of country with a Growing Economy any wear in the world that switched from a democracy to a Police state. People have to be pushed into that by desperate times. Since MOST Americans can still put a roof over there head and Macdonald's on the table I do not think we have reached the point where were looking for that radical a change. Also, you have to keep in mind that we have a fairly well educated population. I know were not Europe or Japan but as the world goes.... Another Issue is the size of the country. For example, do you think your gonna get Texans to support a police state? There more likely to shoot you for being on there property. I suppose certain parts of the country might be acceptable to that but I can pretty much guarantee you there would be one helluva fight over it. If they tried it I would drive myself and my 308 to DC and take a crack at the would be dictator and i seriously doubt i would be the only one.

The reason most of the children are getting killed is not because American soldiers are targeting him, Its because A. Terrorist use buildings they KNOW or assume American troops wont fire on. b ) Vicinity of an IED C) caught in the crossfire. Terrorist specifically use playgrounds, schools, crowded areas specifically to draw American forces into accidentally killing civilians especially women and children, why? it helps there cause in the media. Thats guerrilla war 101, turn the media and world opinion against them.

Good post Slavic, Well like any thought process theres always angles we don't cover, and the reason i post em is to get better angles from other people. SO thanks everyone who posted on it. Looks like I need to rethink my idea a little.

What's really odd about that blog post is that it shows the NYT's cover story on the Iraq war anniversary, and then shows a Miami Herald cover with nothing about Iraq at all. So the text should have read: "The Iraq war seen from Washington DC New York City (fear) and from Miami (hnope)." A definite variety of opinions there, and thats what i asked for and thats what I received. It is always interesting to see how people react to those situations. I think Ray has not quite left the desert so to speak. He does not like to talk about his friends that he lost there. But I have yet to meet a guy who does. All he says about the Iraqi populace is that they are the nicest people by day, they will smile at you as the detonate whatever IED they have. I think he got to the point where he treated every Iraqi as a possible terrorist.

Every Tuesday and Thursday my buddy Ray and I take lunch at this little Mexican restaurant in downtown Charlotte. A little about Ray, hes a bit younger than I at 26. He recently went Inactive with the United States Marine Corps. (squibbys that can shoot) He did two tours in Iraq. Was in the thick of the Fallujah campaign and also did a his first tour in Afghanistan. Anyways, were walking down the street and theres some Anti-war protesters handing out leaflets with statistics on the war. I see them coming up to us, and I try to distract Ray away. Not happening in this situation. He grabs the leaflet and reads it, and I can just see his face getting purple. The leaflet had some misleading facts. Like 20,000 children under 5 killed in the war. Which is just horse shit. Maybe 20k since operation desert storm maybe. Anyways Ray launches into these guys about putting out misleading facts, explains that he was there in the thick of the fighting. These guys tell him he does not know anything about it. At this point I'm in pure shock. A decorated Marine just told you eyewitness experience from not 1 but 2 tours of duty and you believe some piece of fact that he probably got off the internet? Ray in a few drunk moments told me about being ambushed in Afghanistan by Terrorist who used a play ground as cover and shot 3 children. But other than that, he says he saw very few children killed as a result of US fire. The guy has no reason to lie to me about this stuff. He also helped build one of the first Hospitals in Fallujah. Did you know they can actually do heart surgery in Fallujah? Three years ago, they did not even have a hospital.

So, it sounds like you are indicating the return of the Cold War. Here's a fun question ... If Bush wants to invade Iran because it's supporting Shiites in Iraq, but really Iran itself is just a puppet of Russia, shouldn't Bush invade Russia? I never understood why the Russkies support any Islamic nation. Especially after the crap they had to deal with in Chechnya. I cant see the Russians having any huge love for the Iranians. I think its more economically motivated then anything.

Ahh blackdog you know they gotta sell the movie to the ladies some how? Most women are not exactly thrilled by violence. The skimpy outfit just made me want to hit the gym harder! And thanks for the correction on the history there, I was doing that totally off memory.

The debt owed was an obscene amount for the time, im not sure what that would have translated into, plus there was a world depression, a key factor currently missing at this time. In the most WHAT IF situation i can conjur up, i think if the you saw the American Government system fall, you would be more likely to see the country break up into smaller countries then unify into one giant war machine. Thats just my opinion though. Where ever im living though, can Canada take over?

OIY! where did my topic go? So many different topics going on?! One thing I did remember to say, Blackdog Islamic extremist had there chance to take a shot at me in 1998 through 2004, Missed the boat. As of now, your probably right the chances of me having to defend myself from Islamic extremist is remote. But It's not for me that I am worried about it's for the future generations. IE My kids kids. You did use the Churchill quote, but did you see the one I posted? Kind of a flip flop in opinion would you not say? My point is this. Appeasement has failed in regards to aggressive states, nations. Because they have already reached a point that negotiation with them has basically failed. We wouldn't even have to get to the point that we do with most countries that we go to war with, if we did not have a history of looking the other way. Also, Clinton's Appeasement plan with North Korea had failed long before Bush took office. Yes, Bush did hard line them, but North Korea was well on its way to Nuclear refinement. On a side note: I put my thoughts out here to debate it, this is one of the most enjoyable sites to do so in my opinion. If you do not agree with them, thats perfectly okay. You can tell me without throwing out insults at me or each other! Thats why we post peoples!

Yes, and Mandela saw the complete futile use of violence as a means to bring about freedom. Politician's has obviously used religion's as a mean's to bring about an objective. However, my question is why do you think people find extremist groups so attractive? I highly doubt that all of the middle east hates America because of freedom, or Laguna Beach [TV show] for that matter as some claim. Because there is no alternative obviously.

No, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and Lester Pearson. I don't live in fear of Islamic extremists, personally if we want to learn how to diffuse Islamic extremism, we should wonder why these people find extremist groups attractive in the first place. I don't know, because they live in a religious society that deters learning, understanding, and oppresses the hell out of their people? Or is it because since there old enough to stand they are indoctrinated with the thought that martyrdom will get them into heaven? Have you ever seen Islamic Cartoons? They glorify suicide bombers. There culture is one of Oppression, heavy handed fear tactics, and no respect for anything outside there culture.

I think historically the Spartan's often engaged in homosexual sex. The movie was actually commentary on our current political system. http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/in...?ml_video=83621 What does the Spartans being Homosexual have to do with the movie being not full of a bunch of Metro sexual cry baby actors? I'm talking about the movie not the ancient culture.

Because i will not live under fear of Islam extremist anywhere. I'd rather die fighting them. No amount of talk ever stopped a bullet.

A little bomb-"sniffing" in the airplane bathroom after an arab uses it........ lovely. And what if one of these times you find something? Are you trained in diffusing a bomb? Nope but i can sure snap a neck.

Didn't Wilson make the case that American's had to fight in World War 1 in order to "fight the war to end all wars". It's a flawed concept, and war has rarely solved any problem. If anything war has only created more wars because the leaders lacked the will to use proper diplomacy and tact when dealing with despots and crisis. As for liberty, it's not our duty to spread liberty around the world, we sure as hell can promote it, and also give refuge to those seeking it, but liberty and freedom rarely comes from the barrel of a gun. World War 1 was just a clusterf$#k waiting to happen. It was by far one of the most pointless wars we have seen in the 20th century, and did not a thing to bring about peace. We saw the affect that the Allies had on Germany when they attempted to strongarm that nation, and the result was Nazi Germany. As well if you read history, even American history, you'll find a current of non-violence running underneath it supporting the causes of freedom, liberty, and democracy. In fact it is my belief that non-violence probably would have been a better alternative to the Revolutionary War. In conclusion, I fail to see how war has solved anything, it has in fact solved nothing, except in deciding who will live by the end of it. Inaction has caused more harm then action by far. Had we enforced the Treaty of Versailles when the Germans FIRST began to build up World war 2 would have been far less deadly. If we Bombed Iranian and N Korean attempts at Nuclear production before they can/did complete it they would have realized we weren't kidding when we said we don't want them to have it. (i don't mean nuke them, conventionally bombing) Instead we have toe tipped around these psycho dictators and we have put ourselves in worse danger then ever before. So yes I'm advocating Military Action against Iran, however in a limited way. Take out those Nuclear Facilities and do it now.

The Iranian government has denounced the movie 300 as racist and untruthful and harmful to Persia. Personally, i don't know why they give a rats ass. It was before Islam was even a twinkle in Mohammed's greatx5 grandfathers eye. While the movie did spruce up the heroic factor of the Greeks. I have serious doubts the director is part of the Aryan Nation or anything. On a side note, Finally a movie where the hero's are not a bunch of metro sexual cry babies. If your a guy and haven't seen this I would recommend it, Even though there is historical inaccuracies, it makes for great entertainment, i certainly didnt want to see a documentary for entertainment. Actual History of the Battle of Thermopylae 7000 soldiers from other Greek States and 300 Spartans fought for 3 days holding off the Persian Attack. On the 3rd day most of the Greek soldiers leave. 700 Thesbians (sorry if thats spelled wrong) stay with the 300 Spartans. Also, the Athenians won some stunning naval battles to prevent the Persian Navy from sailing around and flanking Leonidas. The Athenian Navy pulled out once Leonidas died. Why did this happen. Xereses father Cyrus had conquered greek colonies in Mesopotamia (In present day Turkey), The Athenians had sailed in and Burned one of the cities (i cant remember its name) Cyrus responded by attacking greece, In the battle of Marathon the Greeks sent the Persian army back to Persia with its tale between its legs, Cyrus never forgot the defeat and neither did his son. The rest you can put together yourslef

Differences Pre-Nazi Germany was essential broke from 1. depression 2. paying obscene amount of war debt which was imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. The German people would have believed Ronald Macdonald at that point if he could have gotten them out of destitution. While it is your belief that Most Americans are dirt poor, I actually live a better life in my middle income then anywhere that i went in the world. Even in Europe they have more living issues then i have to deal with in the USA. The US economy is still an Economic power house growing at a rate of 3 percent a year. (roughly) Now i know thats not China, who has been growing at around 10 percent. But thats still a solid growth rate. If the US of A was descending into a Nationalistic "NAZI" party, then Liberal party would have to be disbanded. The major news networks taken control of, any outside news cut off. Are children taught to toe a particular party belief system. Since are schools are more liberal then the democratic party, i think were missing the boat on that. Also, and this is really important, nobody has come to round up my South American, black, or Jewish friends. Or for that matter come to take my firearms away from me. All key things to a good totalitarian Regime. Well if when we decide to go the way of Hitler, I can promise that Canada will be first on the Agenda of Countries we need to occupy to reunited are English speaking brothers. (think Northern Czechs) You can keep French Canada though because who really wants em! LOL I joke I joke

That is my large fear, part C, That these companies will be so forced in changing security measures that another plane related incident will happen.

I don't really know which thread this really belongs in, but these are my views on appeasement as a political tool in regards to aggressive or hostile states. The failure of Appeasement A look at the history Appeasement as a political tool has failed as a way to stave off conflict in the 20th century. In the following I will illustrate several examples to back up this simple claim. To begin with, we will look at the events leading up to World War One. Germany since 1870 had been becoming increasingly aggressive with Western Europe. The six week Prussian war was a one sided Victory in which Germany received no repercussions for their actions. No sanctions were imposed for the take on the lands in Alsace Loraine. Now this in itself is not indicative of failures of Appeasement but it sets the tone for future events which if handled aggressively and quickly by the allied powers would have possibly averted World war one. Fast forward to 1905; Germany sails its fleet into the Mediterranean sea in order to capture Tunisia. At this point, Germany is forced to back down because of threat from the British fleet. No sanctions or strong action is taken by France or Russia. Again, in 1908 the Germans do the same thing, again the world does nothing but send warnings. These events, plus the obviously engineered invasion of Bosnia and the blatant disregard for the agreement between Austria-Hungry and Russia over the possession of large chunks of the Balkans in exchange for a deep sea port, which the Austrians never let them have and the Russians did little over; gave the axis powers the will and confidence that it needed for the invasion of Belgium and then France. Jump ahead to 1938. The now famous Munich agreement Czechoslovakia; without the representation of its people was essentially willed over to Germany, first the Sudentenland was occupied and then the whole country. Because of weak willed leadership and American Isolationism Hitler was basically given a free reign to do as he wished with Eastern Europe. Winston Churchill said it best when he was quoted as saying “We have suffered a total and unmitigated defeat...you will find that in a period of time which may be measured by years, but may be measured by months, Czechoslovakia will be engulfed in the Nazi régime. We are in the presence of a disaster of the first magnitude...we have sustained a defeat without a war, the consequences of which will travel far with us along our road...we have passed an awful milestone in our history, when the whole equilibrium of Europe has been deranged, and that the terrible words have for the time being been pronounced against the Western democracies: "Thou art weighed in the balance and found wanting". And do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigor, we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time.” This is often held up as the classic piece of the failure of appeasement. Now let’s take a look at modern times. North Korea is an appeasement disaster waiting to happen. We signed an agreement with North Korea giving them millions of dollars in food oil and two Nuclear power plants, in exchange for No Nuclear missiles being created. North Korea is now a nuclear nation. For years, we have been threatened into sending thousands of dollars in aid to one of the most repressive regimes in the world and are one goal of a Nuclear North Korea has failed. Iran is another example, at this juncture we cannot wage an effective war against Iran, and they know it, we have threatened them with sanctions and strong words, all have fallen on deaf ears. Israel has attempted to cede land back to Palestinians. Even after signing peace agreements, it has found itself under attack by those who wish to see it erased. If ever there was an example of why appeasement will not work it’s the Israel conflict. Some people argue that the Cuban missile crisis was solved by Appeasement but if you look at what happened JFK deployed ships of war to the region to effectively block off Cuba. I consider this to be more deterrence of nuclear holocaust then Appeasement, because the Russians only got us to move Nuclear weapons out of Turkey (not like we couldn’t have hit them from the USA). If we continue on this course of appeasement, the future of are children will not be fighting on some distant battlefield in a desert country, it will be in our own backyards. Appeasement does not work on aggressors.

If you mean HUMINT, or ELINT, or SIGINT, or MASINT, or IMINT, I agree. Ms. Plame gave us none of these. yes i mean HUMINT. I simply misspelled it. And could you two knock off the NU-HUH/UH HUH argument?