moderateamericain

Thats true, but to be honest the actual story that Historians agree on is just as fantastic. I heard that historians regard the number of Persian dead from anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 dead. which is an astonishing number by any standard. I almost find the actual story more interesting then the comic adaptation.

very informative

Did anyone catch President Bush's speech today? I missed it and have been waiting to hear about it.

Well the whole argument was Foolish to begin with and I recognize that. But I just dislike it when people take courage, self sacrifice, and honor. All things which I associate with as Manly qualities and turn them into something to be scorned. It is like people telling me its a dishonor to serve in the military. How could they know? Have they ever done it? I guess the real value that I took from the movie is the pride that I have, as a ex soldier, in seeing soldiers do what was necessary to protect the values that there cultured possessed. If there was ever a war that was worth fighting, protecting your home is it. And to me that is Noble. So you are correct it what you say that its not manliness that I admired but the values portrayed by the movie. So thank you BD for making a good point. Don't be silly, gay men can be just as courageous, self sacrificing and honourable as any man. They just do it more fashionably than most.... .....take the spartans for example Dancer, shame on you, your far to smart for a post like that.

Well, there is one. But he is hiding in Canada to avoid going to Iraq. I wonder who in the CIA, NSA or any other Acronym agency thought this was a good idea. Not exactly helpful to our cause of Liberators Unless of course you are a baluchstani living under the fist of the ayatollahs But here in lies the skinny, why descend to that level? We (civilized Nations) should be better than that.

Actually, that wasn't my argument. I've simply noted a strong correlation between fear of radical Islam and a certain breed of regressive conservatism. Yeah but that error in the correlation is that it stipulates you have to be a conservative. I know plenty of very liberal people who have an irrational fear of Islam. Besides your too smart to not know what you were insinuating. I digress from the thread. Continue on with your back and forth tizzy fit.

Well the whole argument was Foolish to begin with and I recognize that. But I just dislike it when people take courage, self sacrifice, and honor. All things which I associate with as Manly qualities and turn them into something to be scorned. It is like people telling me its a dishonor to serve in the military. How could they know? Have they ever done it? I guess the real value that I took from the movie is the pride that I have, as a ex soldier, in seeing soldiers do what was necessary to protect the values that there cultured possessed. If there was ever a war that was worth fighting, protecting your home is it. And to me that is Noble. So you are correct it what you say that its not manliness that I admired but the values portrayed by the movie. So thank you BD for making a good point.

Well, there is one. But he is hiding in Canada to avoid going to Iraq. I wonder who in the CIA, NSA or any other Acronym agency thought this was a good idea. Not exactly helpful to our cause of Liberators

Maybe you should have said: A real man is a person who HAS A PENIS AND puts his family and friends before his own needs. A real man HAS A PENIS AND protects his family and the people he cares about at the risk of even his own life. A real man evaluates a situation and makes a judgment based on his best judgment. A real man HAS A PENIS AND can handle IT AND any situation that comes up in life and even if he cant he takes it on anyways. A real man HAS A PENIS AND takes responsibility for his own actions. A real man HAS A PENIS AND recognizes the need to protect his land from Domestic and Foreign attackers. A real man HAS A PENIS AND takes control of a situation through action and does not hide behind only words. To me, those are the signs and qualities that i feel a man should have, ESPECIALLY THE PENIS. Well i could have, but since we were talking about Masculinity I did not think i needed to check for understanding of the male anatomy.

Pure fantasy. Canada's navy could beat the Iranian navy, probably. Man for man, rifle for rifle, I'd put reg force Canadians up against ANY other country's reg forces and count on Canada to win. But Iran has a much larger army. I the air, right now Canada and Iran's equipment are mostly of the same vintage. Iran has some newer equipment and Canada has yet to take delivery of its new aircraft. Tough call in the air. Are we doing some hodge podge invasion or is this a flat out war where they can come and invade Canada as well? I heard somewhere on the forum that we can't even field a wing of fighter aircraft. If we were to beat Iran in a fictional war it would be through superior generalling and fighting on an area of our choosing, or if we wanted to go the long route, a nice war of attrition involving besieging the entire country (no one gets in, no one gets out). I was assuming we were talking about Canada attacking Iran, but somehow magically deploying our whole military there. Canada would not stand a chance alone agaist Iran as it stands now, or any other modern equipped military. There is a big difference between chasing talibs around Afghanistan and fighting a tank division. The Canadian navy could take on the Iran navy, and win however the Iraainians would not use thier navy, they would most likely attack with thier revolutionary guard navy. Fanatics in small boats. The nav has no real defence against a swarm or small boat full of nut cases with RPGs. Hope a Seaking crashes on them, that's about it..... Our army is good, most likely some of the best infantry in the world, however they lack modern tanks, enough modern artillery, not enough air defence arty to handle Iran, and not nearly enough troops to be able to fight the Iranian army, and win. he key point is "and win". We could invade China if we wanted, but we would not win. Our army is good, but we have not gone up against a technically equal military since WW2. That makes a big difference. Our airforce, I am airforce, I can say we'd be in over our heads. Iran has a faily good airforce, and they are a combat force unlike ours. They actually have planes that can attack, unlike us. They have several fighter wings, we don't even have 1. We have two on paper only. A fighter wing is 3 squadrons, 24 jets each = 72. We only have 80 fighters total, and 25 are dedicated to training. We do not have a combat capable fighter wing. We could send some jets to Afghanistan for CAS, but Iran would be more than a CAS tasking.... We have no combat helicopters at all. Our new chinooks will be great, but they are transport helos, we need attack helos.... The best we could do for our allies in Iran is stay out of the way in Afghanistan, and wish them luck.... unless someone wants to spend big time $$$ on the military, unless someone in Canada finally wants to get SERIOUS about the military, not going to happen...... Regardless, i have more respect for Canadian training then i do Iranian Hardware. Training will beat hardware any day of the week. Theres more than one way to stop a tank. I am optimistic that Canada could take em if they needed too. I dont know how reliable this is but look at this old junk they are using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Iranian_Army I have no doubt anything made in Iran is probably junk.

Because it sounds alot more idealistic to fight for god than the real reasons. It's the same everywhere, if lets say a government wants to fight for some land, will they say they want men to die for land. Probably not, you are more likely to hear cliches thrown around like "fighting for liberty, democracy, and freedom". He may have been referring to Scottsa, however he directed at anyone who thinks in a similar fashion. While I may not take it as far as ScottSA and am certainly much more left leaning on some issues, it was easy to see it wasn't directed solely at him. And I am not making an attack on Black dog per say, but the idea he is presenting. That because of not liking X, means i hate t,y, and z. And its not the first time ive heard that.

O for christ sakes, Comparing a dislike for Extremist Islamic fundamentalism to Hating gays and women? The three are not even remotely linked. Not only is it bad form to insinuate its a down right fallacious argument. Black dog you can think whatever you want about people like me. I'm sure its some where along the lines of a Redneck, driving a pick up truck, living in a trailer park, married to my sister. But the fact of the matter is because people don't like a particular small segment of one particular culture doesn't make them intolerant of another. Because I don't like metro-sexual men does not mean i go out looking for them to beat up. Because I don't like fundamentalist Islamic people does not mean I wanna put Bacon in there food. Besides I got to do something better, shoot at them. (thats a joke) If you wanna call me Intolerant or racist or a bigot because I'd rather see radical islamic dead then Americans, Okay I am a huge bigot.

The Canadian Army could not feild a brigade let alone a Division, thank you libs... We can take on talibs no prob, a well equipped, well trained competent military like Iran, no chance. Idia is not part of the Empire anymore, not really. The Brits could mout and airstrike on Iran, and could do a fair amount of damage. They have a modern well equipped air force, and the Royal Navy has excellent land attack capabilities with their Tomahawk missiles launched from ships & subs. The UK would not be alone, I have no doubt the USA would not pass up a chance to spank Iran. The USA is the real heavy hitter here. They have and unbelievable powerful air force, they could easily take Iran down a peg or 10. I doubt they would even get much resisitance from back home. Not too many folks in the USA have any love loss fro Iran. No need to invade, Iran has too big a land army anyhow. Are you kidding me, the Canadian army could handle Iran's piss ant army alone. The Iranians have a shit army, Canada cross trains with the USA all the time. hell half your equipment is tried and true American shit. Not that it matters its all made in China anyhow. If England and by extension Canada wanted to mix it up with Iran, it could handle the matter quickly and effectively, to make a joke out of it "Your missiles would blot out the sun."

Aren't those qualities a human should have? There's certainly nothing intrinsically male about them. Some silly person: Er...generally, when one makes a big production out of flouncing out of a thread, it's a bad idea to come back with mulitiple posts less than 24 hours later. FYI. Yeah Black dog, Its a really complex question, I know that those are all qualities we look for in both women and men, I guess because the scope of a question of what is a man is so big, its hard to pin down just a few things that define you as a man. So I know thats quite a fallacious argument about it, but I was not planning on writing a huge dissertation on the subject.

True enough Figleaf. It does make a fantastic story. Which is why i attempted to leave politics out of it, Although we did get into a side argument about "Masculinity"

Shame on you for assuming I'm ashamed for disliking the Islamic religion. I have no problem with Asians, Blacks, Hispanics or anyone else not blowing themselves up in the name of religion. you're not ashamed - ok, I get it - you should be ashamed but I don't think you get it And you're an idiot woody. You're too stupid to be ashamed of that, though. What you and the other folks don't get is that hysteria over "bigotry" is what is going to lead us down the garden path. CAIR and CAIR-Can are well aware of our aversion to anything that smacks of "bigotry", and plays it up very well to the media...most notably of late the Imams who were rightly kicked off the plane for freaking passengers out and disrupting everyone. Meanwhile, CAIR and a host of Islamic "human rights" lobby groups are funded by Saudi Wahabbists, and resists every effort by moderate Muslims to denounce terror or extremism. So while you piously close your eyes and cover your ears and refuse to speak any "evil", Islamists are sneaking in the back door. There are court challenges afoot to institute limited Sharia as regards family matters, court challenges over headscarves; all sorts of inroads that you'll no doubt defend on the grounds of "tolerance", and all adding up to eventual inroads and transformation of our society. It's not so bad here in Canada yet, and may never be, since we have a mix of immigrant religions, but in Europe it's essentially the only religion immigrating. Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo...related&search= What goes on in mosques in the UK today. It's in 6 parts, about 50 minutes in length, total. I disregard anything Guthrie says, if we were fighting a war against Mexico I'm sure he'd be accusing us all of being racist against Latinos, he cant decipher the fact that there is no Islamic race. Its a religion. And please don't tell me what i should and should not be ashamed of, especially when you can not tell the difference between a religion and a race of people.

Shame on you for assuming I'm ashamed for disliking the Islamic religion. I have no problem with Asians, Blacks, Hispanics or anyone else not blowing themselves up in the name of religion.

I think the Canadian Military should just stick to Afghanistan. You guys are doing a fine job there and keeping the flight lines open for the Injured coming out.

This, of course, is not true and you can not truly offer any defense for it. Not only is there nothing in Islam as you seem to think but there are, to my awareness, more extremist Christian groups than Islamic. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Timothy McVeigh, Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed - you know, even GWB claims to have been put in office by God -- all violent hate-peddling criminals - all God-fearing Christians This, of course, is not true and you can not truly offer any source to back that up. There are perhaps a handful of violent organizations that claim christianisty as their ethos while on the otherhand there are dozens and dozens of violent islamic oorganizations whose raison d'etre is religious. I am completely bias against the Islamic Religion. However I am not completely Biased against people of Arab/Muslim decent. I think there is nothing peaceful about Islamic ideology, I think its being used like a weapon against the west. Religious fanatics aside, Theres hundreds if not thousands of people listening to these Imams and whats worse is people keep them in places of power. No, I believe that the Islamic religion is the poison of our time. And if we don't suck it out, its going to spread.

Iran would have absolutely no chance in hell in a conventional shooting war. The US Army is designed for a highly mobile conventional war. It would be like stacking Rocky Balboa against a grammar schooler.

I knew someone would nit pick it but i had to at least attempt to answer a complex question in a paragraph which obviously could not be summed up on a forum. I knowingly entered into a fallacy of Complexity.

I wasn't referencing Canada, I was referencing the United States. My main point of contention with ScottSA is his firm belief that those who don't support war somehow hate our society. If that attitude is prevalent persecution will surely follow, it's nothing more than hate monering. I don't think dissension about the war is a sign of hate of our society. I do have a problem with people who say things like "I don't support the war, but i support the troops" I believe thats Hippocratic. There are some people who post here that i truly do feel hate the USA from top to bottom. But I don't think thats everyone.

We? Sorry, Canada opted out of the neat BMD toys. It's not gonna matter now, the US is more likely then not going to go to war in some way with Iran in the near future in my opinion. I was hoping it would not happen for at least a year but its about to bust in my opinion.

Ill take the bait Canadian, A real man is a person who puts his family and friends before his own needs. A real man protects his family and the people he cares about at the risk of even his own life. A real man evaluates a situation and makes a judgment based on his best judgment. A real man can handle any situation that comes up in life and even if he cant he takes it on anyways. A real man takes responsibility for his own actions. A real man recognizes the need to protect his land from Domestic and Foreign attackers. A real man takes control of a situation through action and does not hide behind only words. To me, those are the signs and qualities that i feel a man should have. What made King Leonidas a man wasn't the Armor he wore, or the Strength of his arm. It was the principle's he wielded. They were his strength. The loyalty and recognition of other men. Do you think he would have been able to rally those men to defend that passed in designer jeans and a fancy hair doo? Because i don't and i wouldn't follow a man who cared more about his appearance then his abilities.

I think these problems are much more complex. I also doubt that Islam is the sole contributor as ScottSA seems to believe. We aren't involved in a civil war in the west, to say so would only give racists an excuse to spread hatred against a minority. As much as I dislike the Islamic religion for its Intolerance and Barbaric interpretation by a few of its members, I think it would be slightly far fetched to say a civil war in Europe is brewing. I think the poverty and lack of jobs issue is more the reason then Islamic fundamentalism, at least in Europe.