moderateamericain

Hey even a juggernaut has to fall sometimes, even if its trippin over its own two clutzy feet lol. Id hardly call this a pissing contest tho. But thanks for the correction on the medal counts. I just grabbed the first thing i could find about it and didnt check the source!

THe difference is the United states hasnt killed 28 million of its own citizens in the last century and 50 million total. The russians should not be the defend of anything but itself. They have proven they are the absolute last country we want using there military in any way. THe problem with what your proposing is not the 1 to 1 comparison its the total picture over the last 100 to 200 years. Using your own media source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War *I would not consider this reliable source* The Russians have no regard for human life

so i give you facts and figures and instead of attacking my post you attack my psychology? Ever heard of a fallacious argument? You say its not objective facts but yet your only FACTS you brought out were from wikipedia. which is a editable. No sir, with respect, my logic is in tact. And its a good thing because it takes people like me to defend this country.

I dont wanna go through and tag every page, I find this one to have the most convenient, Obviously you can make your own judgment onto the validity of it, But when you site wikipedia its like asking someone's best guess since almost anyone can go in there and edit that. Anyways, http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm I like this because it shows you where it gets its stats from. Now Keep in mind this is only one of the sites I looked at. If you want further research by all means knock yourself out. As for your question of is it disproportionate? I take it on a case by case basis. Lebanon, I would say the Israelis were excessive here, But again, outside of providing them with arms We had very little to do with what they did, I didnt look up the latest incursion that they made into Lebanon so i couldnt tell you death counts among civilian populations during that last fight. Kosovo, I would say the response was correct to stop genocide for sure. Palestine, again Israel, Not the US Iraq, I say this is, especially after watching a video documentary that follows 4 people around Iraq. A christian, a sunni, a shiite, and kurd) one of the kids moms says it best "i dont care if things are worse now or better, Saddam gone is the greatest thing that has ever happend, praise allah" Also keep in mind most of the civilian deaths now are civilian on civilian. Afghanistan, absolutely and by far the most "Legitimate" fight we could have gotten into next to Kosovo.

34 medals winter 2002 1st 25 medals winter 2006 2nd Both of which were better than Canada

So its your assesment that because we reward are athletes for being the fastest swimmer, fastest runner, etc. That we are catering to the elite? I wonder what the average income for Olympic athletes is? How much annual income do they give up? The choose to do something that few of us ever get the opportunity to. Be the best at something. If the US government wants to reward them for there efforts. I can think of far worse things for my tax dollars to go towards.

Actually Just to attack your list there, Palestine is soley a creation of the English annexation of the region, so if you want to blame anyone for this it should be Queen and country. The US has supported the Jews there. Guess what if they had not, the Arabs would have over run them in the 3 different wars that they started there. Easy to forget that. Kosovo my friends, 6200, 5000 of which were serb military. Thats actual nato bombing Lebanon According to Eckhardt (1975-1990) 162,000 dead, 62,000 by the Israeli vs PLO conflict Number of actual american kills I couldnt find. Afghanistan Actual combat Civilians 1135-1500 median tailiban (legitimate targets) 5,000 Iraq (1979-2003) Sadam era according to Iraqi politicians 1,000,000 dead (1990-present) Us Involvment puts the number dead at 350,000 thats do to combat, kidnappings, violence (does not include malnutrition) *Edit* did a little more research from 2003 to present, I checked with about 8 different sources and took there figures and did a little math. The average Body count of civilians related to violence in the last 5 years is around 100,000 deaths. thats 20,000 deaths a year average.

Russian says the west can forget about Territorial integrity of Georgia http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_russia

I was watching CNN today and they were showing a broadcast with BBC reporters, apparently the Russians are moving east on the main road. They same reporter drove down the road and found a Georgian military unit, most likely recon within 3 miles of the Russians. I have news for you people. Military armies that close to each other are like bugs to a zapper, get close enough and somebody is going to end up dead. Do you really think Russia gives a shit about south ossetia really? Not a fat chance, its just a convenient excuse for a bigger game. If Russia doesn't stop i am willing to bet that Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine are next.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558593.stm Russian troops on the move. BBC is not sure to where though.

If the russians hit the capital it will be within 3 days. Thats my guess. Got to get the job done before the rest of the world gets rolling and the cost of doing so politically is not worth it. Honestly they dont even need to hit it just control the center of the country and you essentially control the country.

sigh... Of course they arent going to move straight into the teeth of the Georgian Military, Its like chess, you move your troops into position and then you attack. Obviously they were not going to go straight from Gori into Tsibili. Moving out farther gives them two things, space to set up a camp and Plenty of warning if Georgia goes on the offensive. Thats just prudent military thinking. If reporters can confirm an influx of russian troops into that area. Trust me they are just building up to hit the capital.

I love the Olympics because the represent the very best in human achievement (regarding physical achievement). Also someone made the comment that Athletes are dumb. Its a proven fact that students who do extra curiccular activities (sports, music) Score much better than students who dont. IE sports are a great thing especially for young people. I still actively play Baseball, volleyball, shooting, Basketball (mostly pick up games in BB), and snowboarding. Not to mention canoeing and boating (far less then the others) Sports also is a very healthy social tool. Not to mention I served in the Military in the US, so seeing them dominate the games (most olympics) is satisfying to me to know that US dominance extends into other then politics and war.

A b-2 Bomber flying low over Moscow with 2 city busters on it.

The real danger of this situation is that everyone has something to lose in this situation. Russia loses face if it backs down to the combine might of Europe and the US. Something it cant do with the largest Army in the world to its south (china). The USA loses face because a freely elected Democracy is crushed under by the EVIL russians. The rest of the world notices that the US does nothing. Which also might encourage smaller groups like Islamic Fundametalist groups or even larger nations. Europe loses a large source of Oil (the BP pipeline) which it cant afford to. Its like 3 dogs fighting over a piece of meat. The meat by itself isnt important its the dominance which is, the problem is someone is going to get bite.

Why is everyone arguing about the politics of the United States when this topic is about Russia and Georgia. As far as I know, barring concrete evidence showing the USA gave the go ahead to the Georgians to take back THEIR territory, the most the US has done so far is fly Georgian troops home from Iraq. Other than that its just been a little talk. Arguing about the percieved "evils" of the US has nothing to do with Russian tanks moving within 30 miles of the capital of Georgia.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_russia Update 13 minutes ago Well Im going to be honest with you and say I believe that if Russia takes control of Georgia. The next 10 years are going to be very dangerous. Especially for those of you that live in Europe. If the US backs down from Russia, the whole ideal of defending democracy is dead. THe reason we fight in Iraq now is dead. Why? Because if we don't defend the ideals that we cherish then our word is meaningless. God forbid Russia decideds to get adventersome in Urkaine or latvia. If they do I trully believe we will all be strapping on helmets. or again for me.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_...gDaDB_sBboazJV4 Latest..

I know this is moral equivalence bullshit. But I honestly don't understand how a person on one hand can condemn the United States, a country with a fairly good human rights record, for invading Iraq (irregardless of the reasoning behind it) and then defend Russia (a country that has killed millions of people in its own country and committed atrocities on par with Hitler) for Invading Georgia. I'm not saying the USA is right for invading Iraq. But How can you compare that with an Invasion by Russia into Georgia and make that some sort of excuse for them to do it. Its sort of like saying because A took this action, which we don't believe was right, B, which we know will do more damage by degrees, is excused from its action.

I highly doubt we will come to the aid of Georgia. If the Russians do infact stop short of a full invasion of Georgia. I could see the Georgians inviting us to set up a Base there. IE, Providing a stopping block for further russian agression down the road. It would also be a great spot strategically to have a military presence. Proximity to Middle east, Russia, dare i say China.

How can you have enough of the human rights soap opera? I assure you theres nothing fake about 28 million killed by your own government. In case you dont know thats the best estimate ive seen in the number of RUSSIAN citizens killed by the RUSSIAN government. To casually toss that aside as a invalid argument is foolish and wrong. Also As of today the Russians Invaded Georga proper. They seized a military base and a police station. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_...a_south_ossetia My question to you all now is where do we draw the line in the sand and say to Russia. Cross this border and we fire a nuke up your ass. Poland? You know that Germany's excuse for invading Serbia in World war one and two was to "protect" its German speaking brethren in Northern Serbia from the rest of Serbia.

Personally i think its not a left or right issue, anyone who has to bully or force someone to see his point. Really only proves two things. 1) he cant articulate a point in an intelligent manner. Therefore has to resolve to force to solve the argument. 2) He can't articulate his/her point because its flat out wrong.

The problem I have with that argument is that the United states did invade those countries, but the difference is that we actually try to clean up what we break and if you want to compare US imperial tendencies with those of Russia pre revolution and USSR days. It doesn't even come close. Russia ranks right up there with China in human right violations. If you want any country to defend S Ossetia the last people you want is the ones that have proven over and over again for hundreds of years that they care little for there own people and even less for other countries. We can argue for hours about whether or not invading Iraq was correct. But one thing you cannot do is compare the US to Russia in its treatment of other countries. Doesn't even come close.

I agree with this Summary to an extent. I look at it like if Alaska decided to break off from the USA, we put troops there to prevent it and Russia came across the strait and started a war. Its roughly the same thing. Also, With Georgia being a fairly strong ally of the USA, 3rd most troop support in Iraq I believe. How do we handle the delicate task of protecting an ally and making sure world war 3 doesnt break loose.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_south_ossetia 1500+ killed