Army Guy

Rue: These units already operate in Afgan, made up of spec ops units from across the globe, Thier exploits are not made public because of thier nature, but they do happen around the clock 365 days a year. Conventional forces are used to promote a presence, handle much larger operations, and do the PRT side of the house. both are needed side by side if we are to effectively put these guys out of bussiness. Yes it does make them sitting ducks, as it is almost imposiable to stop someone determined enough to blow themselfs up, or from digging huge holes and filling them with explosives for us to run over... but on the other side of the coin if they are concentrating on hurting us then they are leaving the Afgan population. alone. But thats not all we are doing standing around and waving our flag or handing out maple leaf pins. Coventional forces are very active in hunting these scum bags down, modern tech is a wonderful thing and you'll have to trust me when i say thier cas list is alot longer than ours... These guys over thier a not just a bunch of goat herders, most have been fighting since they could pick-up a wpn, and they are good at what they do. They are very adaptable, changing thier tactics daily...but thier are not 10 ft tall and bullet proof, they can be killed and are being killed. we are making progress and flushing them out of the country...just this winter they were bragging about having 10,000 men and a 1000 sucide bombers ready for the spring offensive...well spring has come and gone in Afgan, and nothing but a few IED's. Why is it that the soldiers know exactly what is going on in Afgan, they are very clear about what we are doing over there. and all of them support this mission....i mean they are the ones with clearly the most to gain from pulling out of Afgan, but they are the ones that want to stay, they are the ones that come back over and over again, they are the ones that shoulder thier comrads lifeless bodies and carry them one last time to an awaiting herc. They are the ones who's voices go unheard... It's very frustrating for soldiers to hear in our media that there still Canadians out there that don't know why or what we are doing in Afgan. and it's frustrating to find out that more than half of Canadians don't agree with the mission....It's not like our military woke up one day and said lets ship out our troops to some pissed off country and make a name for ourselfs. It was the people of Canada who done that in fact a majority of Canadians decided "what a noble mission", and now they hide behind that famous statement "things have changed,or we were suppose to be just handing out teddy bears, and candy, not fighting....who in the frig hands needs an armoured fighting veh to hand out candies ... I don't know how many times i heard soldiers stand up and shout " when are these people going to wake the fuke up "at our TV in our mess.

Fat Freddie: These guys are legal targets " meaning they are known terrorist that it has been proven they are guilty of terrorism".... and can be engaged with military force as per the genva convention, and Canadian law within the confines of the operations area, meaning Afgan. That being said they are given every oportunity to surrender with out incident. if they do not then deadly force is used. our soldiers do not wantonly kill taliban suspects every shooting or killing is investagated. Those terrorist in Canada can be engaged by RCMP or military anti terror pers, however under Canadian laws. And like any other arrest of any criminal , that is made in Canada if they choose to fight with deadly force then there is a good chance they will die. Again they don't wontonly kill any terrorist muslim or other wise. deadly force is always a last resort.

Yes, sometimes the use of force or violence is necessary to solve some of our every day problems, but when a government or nation decides to use force to solve it's problems the results are never good and come at a cost that far out wiegh the benifits. That being said there are plenty of reasons that we deem worth using force and are willing to pay a cost for...but the cost has always been higher than we expect, and in most cases the cost is piontless after a certain piont has been reached. A good example of this is the allied bombing of cities during WWII, it will be discussed forever if these actions did contribute to bringing the war to an early end. If they did not then it was a needless slaughter of many thousands. I guess your statement of "all wars are not piontless slaughters" depends on who you ask, and what cost they have paided. As a soldier that has seen war up close, i've struggled with this question every minute of everyday when i was in Afgan,and continue to struggle with it at home..Were my actions and use of force contributing to end the Afgan's struggle in search of peace...Yes they were...But was there piontless slaughters, again Yes there were, operation Mudusa piont in fact, hundards of taliban died, did it make a difference, i hope it did, but i'm not sure it did have an effect, only time and history will say.

One can not compare the two, yes both are worth mention in our history but one is a major event with a great cost to the nation, and the other a minor event. Yes alot of those that enlisted were british born, and they do make up the majority, but lets not forget the others that contributed to our nations role in WWI. Such as the many Scottish, Irish, that provided countless of Bn's along with Bn's raised from the Danes, hugarians, poles, italians and many others. Bn's were formed for many different reasons, such as the Bantam BN's made up of men under 5' 2'', or the Bn from winnipeg made up of men abstaining from alchol. Not to mention the 13 Bn's made up of french Canadians. One important note that should be present although Canada did not have much say in going to war, it did have control over it's contribution to the war. One has to also has to remember that most Canadians had come to Canada some 15 years prior during the great migration. to say that they were not Canadian is making a big leap, i will agree that most did feel an alligance to britian The main reason that vimy battle is so important to our history, is prior to the battle Canadian units, divs, were always fighting under direct command of other nations, such as the france and britain. It was these actions that upset alot of Canadian volunteers, being used peicemeal to reinforce other nations armies, being lead by british officers and Senior NCO's, but as the war progressed this started to change. And by the time Vimy came around alot (not all) but most were Canadian...It is here on the battle field that these men stop being British,scottish,irish, etc and started being Canadian. Vimy ridge is the first time Canadians were to fight as a whole formation, using tactics designed and invented by Canadians for the first time. The battle represented alot of first times for Canada. There are a lot of reasons why this one battle is a turning piont in our history. The allieds had tried so many times to take this piece of ground at the cost of more than 600,000 cas. It was deemed imposable to take.. it took canada just 3 days of battle so the event it self is important...The tactics that were used to take the hill were state of the art for the day, rolling barages, counter bat fire, sound ranging, arial recon, arial photography, the list is long most of these tactics are still used today in modern warfare, and they were invented and used effectivily by Canadians....The battle of vimy is marked as the beginning of the end, for the germans and would bring the war to an end that much quicker....Lets not also forget that many Canadians still had families in these countries that were effected by this war, a big incentive not only for recruitment but for ending the war quickly.... And the most important piont although we forced into war by being a colony we still had the final say as a nation as to what our contribution would be, a nation of under 8 mil manged to supply over 600,000 troops over the course of the war, that has got to speak volumes to our character, and who we are as a people. Yes it does , but then again so do most nations in the new world. the battle of vimy is marked as the turning piont in which Canada was on the road to becoming it's own nation. No longer made up of mostly brits, but made up of Canadians. Who indentified themselfs as Canadians. The perlude to the vimy attack, I would not say naive, but rather that event shows the importance of having ones own government, a vioce in how your people or soldiers are used on the battle field. I think the conscription crisses is over blown, of the 620,000 Canadians that served during WWI only 108,000 were concripted, of that number only 48,000 were sent to europe and of that number only 24,000 actually seen combat. Yes it did divide english Canada and french Canada, as thier two sets of values clashed, the french refused to fight for the british, and felt betrayed or atleast thinking they owed france nothing. it was thier refusal to contribute to the war that divided this country, unless you can prove other wise. at the time French speaking population made up over 30 % of Canada's total population, To which they provided only 4 % of Canada's entire war contribution. We were a british colony after all, and by law once Britian declared war so had we, although we did maintain control on what our contribution was going to be, Quebec had an oppurtunity to prove it was part of this nation, and not just a separate part of it with an entirily different culture. But they missed that boat, and by doing so refused to take that step to being Canadian instead they opted for something different. To these pionts i agree, i would go on step further and state all wars are piontless slaughters, to which we suffer more than what is gained. But that is mans history is it not. It is a part of our history, nothing can change that, celebrating it serves 2 purposes it reminds us of who we are and what sacrifice we paid to get there. Vimy monument was not built to glorify war, but to remind us of it's cost, perhaps to make us all pause and reflect, before we jump on that band wagon of war again. They are all the same, it all comes down to Canadians answering someone elses call for help, and doing what we think is right for all of us.

Thats a good question, we can live our lives enjoying the freedoms and rights that they can not or have not been able to do for themselfs. I think for as many faults that Canada has we are one of the few countries that still allow us to do that. I think more than anything else we need to do that, not an easy task considering todays world. They've pass the torch to many generations , and although we have not fought, or contributed anything to the actual battles, we have picked up the torch and carried it. ensuring that Canada remains a nation with the freedoms and rights they fought for...thats something to be proud of. I understand what your saying,you feel if you have not contributed then you can't be proud, or take the moment as your own. But thats part of the soldiers contribution to the nation, to fight so others do not have to, to uphold our rights and freedoms so others may enjoy them, to pass the torch on to the next generation. Because if Canadians abandon all that it will have been for nothing. and thier sacrafice will mean nothing...I don't know many soldiers that would mind us sharing thier moment, and being proud of them and our nation.

hiti: Not true, defense has never been a minor let alone major issue for Canadians. Our soldiers have older equipment because that is what Canadians where willing to give them, end of story... As for the cold war ending , give me a break, even at the hieght of the cold war we only had 4 small brigades, a comparable airforce and navy, shit even luxenburg had a larger military than we did, exactly where is luxenburg anyways....4 small brigades to defend the 2 and largest nation in the world... To put that in prespective, we are having problems suppling troops and equipment to Afgan and we now have 3 under manned brigades... We are they way we are because Canadians wanted it that way...although that is slowly changing today, we as a nation can only piont the finger at our selfs. As for the Budget deficit did you mean deficit, or net federal debt, as they are two differnet animals? OK ...you must be a liberal, yes they did purchase the LAV III for the military, what you forgot to mention was they did not purchase enough of the vehs, or enough of the add on armour kits, or enough parts, Ammo, etc etc and the LAV's were only one of many much needed pieces of equipment needed for the Afgan mission let alone the defence of Canada.... but you should check the TO&E that the liberals did send us over to Afgan with, it includes the Ilitis jeep, the LSVW, MLVW, all light vehs, and not enough extra amour kits for Lavs or HLVW's.... Don't climb to high on that liberal horse, inregards to our nations military. The liberals had 12 or more years to look after DND and chose not to. the Conv have done more in one year for the military than the liberals entire reign. Thats what truely pisses the liberals off.... Your not interested in hearing about the mission, you've already made up your mind, along with most of the liberals, the DND web site has dozens of examples, along with most of the major media outlets. All it takes is a little effort to find.

geoffrey: Why we should be proud, not just of the accomplishments at vimy, but our entire sacrafice in WWI, which is why the Vimy monument was erected. We started the War as a dominon of the British empire, our policical masters had little say in how our own war effort was to be used. We ended the War,strenghtened ,united, as Canadians instead just immigrants from other nations...fighting under the dominon of Canada ensign as Canadians, our polictical masters had a seat at the table of global polictics, and thier voices were being heard....Thats something to be proud of. At the time Canadians were made up of people from across the globe, having left thier parent countries for a better life, coming to Canada to carve a better future for thier families. They risked all of this, including thier lives to fight for king and country and ideals they believe in at the time...To risk all that is something to be proud of... Although we did not have a hand in it we can still be proud of the event and those that did take part, just as we are proud of the famous Russian/ Canada hockey seris in 1972. The event still shaped our nation, and defines us as Canadians. Your right people don't have to die to define our nation or who we are, but in this instance they did and we should stand tall, and honour those that were involved and be proud that they called themselfs Canadians. I think you are confusing the issue, Taking a life of another being is never a proud moment, but in combat it is neccessary to achieve the end result, be it peace or an end to hostile actions of another nation.. Anybody how has been or seen war up close will be changed forever, it's mans own recreation of hell, and what it will be like. Depending on how you are looking at it, What Canadians did that day was end the continual allied losses trying to break this strong hold, no longer will thousands of allied soldiers need to perish in taking this stratigic ground...Thier sacrafice marked the beginning of the end of the war...And anything that would stop the slaughter of millions is something to be proud of...Film footage of soldiers on top of the ridge show them as jublant, proud of what they had done, why can't the rest of Canada be proud of them and what they accomplished. I know as a soldier, these brave men of vimy have set the bar and standards of most of my training i do today. I'm proud of them, i have nothing but respect for thier bravery,courage,thier fortitude..Ya i'm proud of them and what they did for our nation. And i think in your own way so are you.

Yes I'm aware of what it is, but it is also part of our history, and would help put into Canadian context just what and whom is classified as insurgents, and what tactics are to be employed on them. The info that was provided was not done so to profile a race, or religion etc but to provide a canadian example. There are lots of government publications that do this to explain context or meaning of what is written... as for polictically smart , just how much weight does the mohawk warriors have anyways, i'm guessing but i'd say next to none...So what is the problem, perhaps it's canadians not being able to handle the fact there is a canadian group mentioned in the manual. I'd did not say that. The mention of the mohawk warriors is not PC because of what exactly? And by the same token, i have not heard a clear reason why it should be removed, other than it pissed off a few mohawk warriors...Do we alter all our publications , or for that matter any federal documents where do we draw the line.

Apparently you can't stand the fact that soldiers do contribute more to this nation than the ordinary citizen. And it pisses you off that soldiers are respected more for doing it. I guess since your paying the bills i should ask you why most of the military equipment is older than both of us together. That i should be pionting the finger at the taxpayer and asking why ? is the military in the state it is today....Or perhaps you should stop taking credit for something you have no control over....that includes paying my wages, new equipment etc... Everyone in Canada pays taxes including soldiers, it's all used in the common good of the nation, and only a small portion of those taxes collected are used to pay our wages, purchases new equipment. So before you fall off that high horse your on, take 2 seconds out of your busy day, and let this sink in, Our nations military provides more to this nation than this nation has provided the military...think about that next time some SAR tech risks his life dragging your ass out of the ocean, or our soldiers fight forest fires , floods, Ice storms, let alone carring out our nations forgien policy thru out the globe....Our nations soldiers don't ask for much... just your respect, something they have earned many times over...don't worry it won't cost you a dime...

Peter F: No the manual is still very useful. But will not contain all the useful referances. Perhaps you can explain to me why government publications need to be censored, and sanitized, and publications made for public consumption are not. But it is the Canadian way not to piss anyone off, to bend and please every one. Don't like being mentioned in a counter insurgent manual then don't practice insurgent warfare. Mad_Michael: Now you gone and done it , uncovered a secret government /military plot to get rid of peace protesters and native protesters. Perhaps you can give us a list of lawful protests in the last 20 years that the government has ordered the military in to bust up...shit give us a list of unlawful ones lets see if there is a pattern here.

The piont is giving the soldiers a ref piont or example of what cion ops are. The tactics are the same wether your black,white or purple with warts on your dick. It is sanitization, the manaul was written by soldiers for soldiers to give them a better understanding of Coin ops, it was not made for public consumption, they used a good "canadian" example something soldiers could relate to or have some knowledge of ...Now that is has been made public it has a few people panties in a knot. and now it's going to be changed, how is that not being sanitized...

Melanie: I just finsihed my tour in Afgan, the hardest part for me was not the combat, not the heat, or anything else, but missing my family and my kids. it would not be uncommon to shed a few tears after talking to them on the phone. So ya i would say your dad felt the same way.

According to the minister of National defense the new manual will not include any ref to mohawk warriors or any group. Once again the military has been sanitized for polictical correctness. This is a manual that prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more. And if our government decides that your form of protest, requires direct military intervention then one could expect the military to use tactics and doctrine out of this manual. It is not designed to stop all forms of protest, it's designed to prepare our troops for protests that get out of control, such as OKA for instance....when you pick up arms ,kill a officer of the law, there is a problem, and you've taken it from a protest allowed by law to an unlawful one that endangers canadian citizens and needs to be dealt with.

It is a good read, It brings back alot of memories, good and bad.

Whats so hard to believe is that a warship,designed and crewed not to get surprised ... should have been on a higher alert status, ensuring that this thing did not happen, got surprised by a bunch of amatures. hence why i said sleeping at the switch....

Your right i do not know exactly what happened, but lets face some reality here, the brits have already proven twice thier exact location, once by sat, and once by photo of GPS. which would cross out the brits being in Iranian waters... so thier either fell as sleep at the switch or willing gave the iranians the sailors, or the brits are lying ..you pick.. So now you are speculating now as well

over a mile inside Iraqi waters, at that distance nothing happens in seconds, atleast not on the water. And if the Iranians regularily are operating in Iraqi waters there is a problem. I'm just finding it difficult to believe it was that easy to snatch those sailors right under a modern frigs nose and nothing happen.

DogOnPorch: Actually going to or coming back from does not change anything, The alert level does not change until all are back on board. IE everyone is still tracking contacts, helo still in the air, the entire crew still at thier stations. How is that speculating ? someone fell asleep at the switch and now iran has hostages...

I think the below quote describes best describes how a majority of Canadians feel. How i feel, is another matter being in the military i've traveled alot, not just the shit holes of the world, but most Europe, and some of africa...To me what it means to be Canadian, it means living in a nation that has more freedom, more basic human rights than most nations. It means i have access to oportunities that most do not, it means raising a family in a diverse enviroment, It means i can walk any where in the world with my head held up high and never having to say sorry. It means hearing our national athem at a hockey game and feeling my chest swell with pride. it means alot of things.... But it also means being part of a nation that has a proud and colorful history, It means i have the chance to wear our countries flag on my shoulder everyday, and be respected for doing it every where i go... Like i said i've seen alot of differnet countries and i'm always glad to come home to Canada.

Argus: No, i'm aware of the restrictive nature of the waterway, i've seen the maps and pictures supplied by another poster. What i was saying was ... That As a skipper of a frig, one would assume , i know thats a bad thing but in this case almost SOP, that prior to launching the Boarding party, his combat center is at a higher alert status...the combat center has indentified all surface contacts, and classified them ie friendly, hostile, Iranian etc etc...ensured his boarding party was armed and had good comms, before leaving the boat, as an extra measure he launches a armed lynx to act as over watch.... Now if those already indentified contacts marked as Iranian started to move pick up speed, thier course could be plotted and indentified well in advance...I guess the piont is nothing could happen on that water way that the frig did not know of within seconds of it happening...plenty of time to have ordered the helo into a blocking postion, and have the boarding party disembark for the frig.... An armed naval Lynx could have sent a clear message, be it by over the radio, or by hovering directly in front of the lead boat, or by a machine gun burst in front of the ship...anything to let them know that they were serious about defending the boarding party...As it sounds they watched the whole thing, and did nothing....It is not clear wether the skipper just failed in his duty to protect his crew, or clearly did not want to provoke the incident further and risk his boat... NATO roe's for the area have not changed self defense is clearly a no brainer , no permission is needed to open fire. And he clearly had the upper hand in regards to fire power...It only takes less than a minute for the combat center to track and engage numerous targets at the same time...That being said both parties knew exactly where they were, the ships nav sys requires it, and in waters like that try explaining that to your boss, how you grounded a multi mil dollar gun boat on the flats, or sand bar.... But you are right about the lynx, i'm sure they won't being caught with thier pants down a second time...

Something still stinks here, even with the frig a few klicks away, i'm sure it's combat center had a clear picture of all surface contacts, including those Iranian gunboats, and were plotting thier courses. And knew ahead of time they were headed towards thier boarding party... Knowing all that where they lacks in thier security measures, "thinking the Iranians don't have the nuts to carry outthis" although i was not there... as a skipper i would have atleast notified the boarding party of possiable threats in the area, and would have had the Lynx check out the contacts...atleast have the helo inform the iranians that they were now in Iraqis waters...and when they got to close to the boarding party inform the gunboats of the operation underway"boarding party" and warn them to keep thier distance... ROE's have been mentioned here, And i bet a weeks pay that at the very minimum it includes the right to self defense...Siezing a rib full of sailors would definatly fall into that catagory... So yes the skipper is going to have to answer some tough questions, why did he not have the Lynx move into an aggresive posture until boarding party could withdraw ? and yes that would include a warning shot if the situation escalated... that could have also included the use of the frigs wpns systems...I'm glad i'm not in his shoes...

My only question about this whole affair, is what was the skipper of the frig thinking about letting his boarding party be siezed by a few Iranian gunboats. I'm not a naval boarding party expert, but the frig should have not been more than 500 meters from the boarding party in the first place....and they should have known well head of time that the iranians gunboats were on route to intercept them... And why did he not inform the iranian gunboats to keep thier distance or be fire upon...i mean a modern frigate could have easily handled the gunboats....Can someone out there with a navy back ground explain this to us...

AshNazg: One can not make up excuses for countries ruled by brute force, as there are plenty of made up middle eastern countries whom have chosen a different path. i might add made up around the same time as Iraq that did not rule with the same brutality as sadam did. So your saying that it's OK for sadam to beat his kids,or it was nessicary for this brutality because iraqis can not live with each other... it's ok that the desert is full of unmarked grave sites victims of these so called beatings, all done in the name of keeping his kids in line...But he did provide basic education and his jails were free from criminals.. Come on...lets tell the whole story here ....siezing another country thru military force does not call for someone to get thier thier hands slapped.... Yes he did keep them in check in fact he used chemical warfare wiping out entire villages, and when not using poison gas, he used modern military eqipment such as attack helos ,tanks, and arty. You've made it very clear, that until every Iraqis is willing to embrace democracy we in the west should leave them to thier own devices, bury our heads in the sand and wait to see what becomes of it. Much like Britian is dealing with Iran.... This statement says volumes about your postion in ref to the whole middle east problem.

AshNazg: Then your orginal post should have placed the blame on the American people and not just it's government and it's soldiers. So i take it you've denouced your US citizenship, or you have dual citizenship, an act in itself is a form of protest or action...more than most have taken, That being said one would be hard pressed to find a country that finances or supports everything that everyone of it's citizens believes in. unless one is willing to become global citizen. I want to be clear, i'm not judging you, your doing what you think is right for you and your family, much like those US soldiers you've talked about, painting them all with one brush is not for us to decide. Yes, he knew how to rule thru fear, and intimidation...but then again so can anyone..It takes a person with some leadership skills to run a democracy. Are you saying that all the Iraqis or for that matter most middle eastern countries are not capable of becoming or are ready to become democracies and need to be ruled with an iron fist enforced by threats of violence....if not then how should they be governed ? Even some of the middle eastern nations have admitted that Sadam and his band of thugs were not exactly a stabilizing force within the middle east...Kuwait, and iran would be examples of that... So how is the west or for that matter all democractic countries to deal with these countries, do we bury our heads in the sand and let them have free rein to do as they please....and hope that some form of humanity developes soon.

AshNazg: According to your reasoning, then every american citizen must bear the same responsibility, as they allowed thier government to carry out thier actions, just like each american soldier did..Why just pin this on two groups, the government and military, do they not serve the american people. or are you blaming them ( the Military) because they did not stand up and inform the government that this was an illegal action and they would not take part... I mean lets face it, how many out there thinks that the world would be a better place with Sadam in power in Iraq. "Your words not mine", my piont was rather that you hold those in the US military to a higher standard than you set for yourself, you blame them for following illegal orders, not being free thinking men, when you yourself are just as guilty on all pionts. Thats pretty serious when you've lost all faith in your country or it's people, i say that because i could not fathom denouncing my country because of one man, or one political party....take the liberals under critien for instance.... I'm curious to know why you've chosen this form of protest "left the country"? whats the next step in your protest ? For anything to change it must come from within, watching from the sidelines is not going to make that happen. And one person can make a difference