Army Guy

Here's the thing, training can only go so far, in training you know unless something goes very very wrong your going to live to see the next day....in combat after you see the effects of some of the wpns we use...it sinks in very quickly that this is for real....and everyone reacts very differently,...so to mask it soldiers put on this bravdo act.. in this case talk like some unprofessional newbie....and it works for some...but i want to add someone may be cool calm and collected in combat one day, and a total zombie the next...it depends on how much the mind can take before it says enough.....

Part of removing a government, is sticking around and assisting in replacing that government with something more stable... Everything changes, but our stragictic goal has remained as stated above. The Taliban is made up of a shit load of different groups, not all following the Taliban drum....The hard core Taliban guys are tribal related, and will always be Taliban....the others are working for money...or Muslims fighting for religious reasons, there is many different reasons....why they fight ....but the hard core members are becoming fewer....and will die out over time....generations.... And i won't lie to you Yes NATO's actions do drive some undecided to thier wings....just like thier actions drive some to our side....If you talk to the Average Afghan they all want the same thing PEACE....and after 30 years of war who ever can deliver it will get thier support....

Your right i am, and perhaps your not reading enough into my comments.... Many have said they have in the past nincluding yourself, and yet they've investagated it and you have found thier findings suspect, based on that fact you percieved....What makes you think that the UN is going to do a better job. Something that has been said before this is not CSI....this is a threater of war....and the level of proff is not the same... We all now by this stage the circumstances...US forces had been in the area all day conducting various operations, they had been engaged...meaning trading shots in anger...2 appache helos where assigned as over watch...thier job was to be on station provide direct fire and observation when required and also to fire up targets of oportunity....meaning they did not have to be requested to open fire, but could fire on targets they found on thier own.... Part of the ROE this is important although not explained in the report as it is assumed ....Any soldier that percieves his life or any other American or colaitions life, is in imediate danger may engage targets...This is made clear in the vidio...and vioce over....The key here is percieves....If a soldier thinks and believes there is a danger he may fire...One does not have to have 100 % proof that the camera is a wpn...but rather that in this case the gunner thought he was about to fire on US service persons an RPG....then he is free to engage...In this case an AKM and RPG where found at the scene along with serveral RPG rockets.... Yes there was unarmed civilians killed...but you do not have to be armed to be an insurgent....taking part in combat operations or being with those that that are not only places you at risk but also places you in the combatant catogory....The media guys...are also supposed to have thier persons clearly marked, for just this case in piont...and should have separated themselfs from the insurgents....sometimes that is not possiable...such as the Young Canadian media person killied in AN IED attack in Afghan ...my piont is they assume the same risk as the soldiers they are traveling with....and become a target as well....no special passes in combat ... Picking up the wounded....the only people that have any special protection under any laws are medical personal that are clearly marked with armbands or red cross or cresent and ministers , clerics etc ...everyone else touching a wounded comrad is a combatant....trying to save is buddy from being captured...and while it is illigal to deliberatly target wounded soldioers if they've been disarmed...it is not illegal to engage the veh trying to wisk them off the battle field to fight another day....the order was to disable it....once again hard to do with a 30mm cannon with out shreding most of the van....but that is what was done....the tragic thing here was the idiot in the van brought along his children into a live combat zone to save a few of his buddies...if he is alive today his wife is going to kill him... War has few rules....it is filled with death...civilians suffer more cas than the enemy does that is a fact of life...there are certain targets that are not to be engage ....targets that should be avoided...Civilians are one of them....key word here is SHOULD BE AVOIDED....it does not say avoided at all costs....just should be....Sound cold and heartless welcome to WAR baby ....leave your tissues and CSI kits , morals and values at the door, here you have split second to make decisions that will effect lifes around the globe....and it's done every second of everyday...and Man still loves to go to War....and people love to watch it on TV.... Is it an emotional response...tell me about human rights in a war zone...what rights do i have or for that matter civilians or the enemies....i can tell you there are few, and that is the reality of war...And it's not because of my long service or seeing my comrads die on the battlefield... Canada is not on a humanitarian mission in Afghan , i want to make this very clear...it's a combat mission, Canadian soldier are activily seeking out and destroying the enemy as dictated by our government...and while there be be some humanitarian programs ongoing with this function it is not our prime objective....As for the allegations i have the utmost confidence that our soldiers have conducted themselfs well within the rules and laws our nation has signed up for. No i'm a soldier that had recieved his marching orders from our government, and did his job, hoping that our government and it's people thought this mission through from beginning to end....and made the right decision before risking our lifes.... I want to explain some of the gung ho ness displayed on the video...It's a cover up...meant to cover thier own fear...the fear of dieing, not seeing your love ones , not being able to see the rest of the day with your comrads....fear of pissing your pants...fear of letting FEAR over come you and taking over your entire thought process....which if this happens you can kiss all that training goodbye...and fight or flight takes over....Watch a couple of you tube video's of our troops in action...and you'll see what i'm talking about...watch and look for fear, you'll see it in their eyes, you'll be able to see who has control and who is scared shitless...and who's pissed thier pants....remeber the bad guys want to kill us just as bad as we want them ....Combine this with dozens of other emotions, feelings, actions, adrinalin and you might be able to see exactly what these soldiers are thinking and why they are doing it... As for the WE part i do have a problem with it...And this is not just my opinion but shared by many soldiers....we feel abandoned on this mission, most Canadians could not give a rats ass about the entire thing until a soldier screws up, or a detainee complains....or how much the mission costs....Canadians dropped the mission long ago....they don't want anything to do with it....and yet this entire conflict can not be won without thier support....they know that or atleast should know that...It is our Nations soldiers that picked up the ball, really because we had no choice....Canadians don't support it, and yet will not or choose not to press our government into anything other action....they are happy with our close out date....and will life with that .... I'm Paraniod....really let we ask you this, How many schools have been built by Canadain military personal, how many wells, how many firehalls, hospitals....how many fire trucks and Abulances have been donated to Afghan communites out of funds collected by troops...how many dam projects have we completed...how many miles of hyway have we laid... I'll bet everyone can tell you how many soldiers have died.....How many detainees have filed complaints, how many have been tortured.... No not paraniod, just used to attend alot of the press briefs...then watch the news...and shake my head how they spun the story that way...maybe tainted is a better word...

I will admit that i have run into a few journalist's who are there to report the news good and bad, as it happened without the personal or policitcal twist...And these people have perhaps done more for the war or mission than most of our polictical masters have . And i respect them for that, as it is important to get that story out to the public ensuring they have the info required to make informed decisions on world events... Thanks for this one...it explains it much better than i could, Reporting the news is one thing, getting the general public to understand what they are seeing is another....it's this misunderstanding that gives the Military the grief in war....Such as this incident at hand...There has to be some common ground where both sides can meet in the middle to discuss...not argue...this situation...to explain it...Maybe if we educated the gerenal public about war...would be the answer...

SO everyone in the US army has lied to you in the past, no one is to be trusted....including this report...what about the dozens of court cases now before the US courts chargeing us service personal of crimes of some sort or another....are they to be believed...or are they the exception..... Let me make this clear to you this shooting was no accident...it was a military operation which ended with the killing of minimum 2 insurgents....Can you say that those that were not armed with 100 certainity where not insurgents...would not have assisted in some way in the deaths of americans....but you've made up your mind anyways... Ya, what ever....We are payed very well, where did i park my Cady again.... ever been to a war zone Billy.....step on to the battle field and the clock starts ticking....and when your time is up....it does not care if your black, brown, white, or pink with warts on your dick...or if your a warrior or civilian, firefighter, or journalist...something is going to find you and kill you sure as shit....there is very few rules, no honor, no glory , nothing but death and more death....step on to the battle field and you pay the price.... Another first someone from BC lecturing me about human rights....OK , i'd like to clearify some thing first....when you say "we" in the sentence "we dont have a clean record either" are you refering to me and you or just Canadian soldiers, because i don't want to taint you with any of "our" bad deeds, or suposed bad deeds becuase unless i'm wrong those very same rights you gave me a lecture on ...well those also refer to those accused of those very crimes....and as of yet nothing has been proven in court ...so until they do i would say our record is clean....unless you have other examples.... I love the media, i love how the same story can be given out at the same time at the same place, and spin in dozens of directions....and have nothing to do with the orginal briefing.....I hate the fact that very few will report the news , and not twist it to sell papers....i hate the fact that blood sells and good will does not rate....

I think you'd be surprised how many Canadians attend some type of rememberance ceremony....But thats not the piont...rememberance day is really not about all Canadians....it's about the Vets and military to gather and salute fallen comrads, then latter over some beers shot the shit, tell stories....and hey if you want to sleep in relax scratch your bag then good for you....I know where i'll be , and now i know where you'll be....it's why we do the things we do ...so you have choices, in your case scratching your bag...in my case remembering those of my comrads who where lost in combat....and to celbrate thier lives...

All you have to do is the math....Last year there was 3.5 bil out of the Ann Budget for new aquisitions....this year there is alot less...most of those projects i've listed are well over 5 bil....with some as much as 10 or more....so tell me how is it we can amke all this purchases without outside funding.....maybe it's the new math... The C-17 would have been able to do what....take more people out of cyprus....what would of made the difference would have been a big honkin ship with limited amphb capabilities....but hey who i'm i ... lebanon was not a DND mission....who's mission was it....and why is it now the military has a a tasking called NEO, which trains just for these type of occasions....retrieval of civilians from a hostile country... It's going to Afghan it's a secure airfield....besides it's arental, and the russians will fly any where for a price.... You also know that we have the 2 and largest continent and it comes with a price as we are seeing in the north don't use it loss it....can't defend it loss it....So yes i am aware of what our status is....but how can you sit here and tell me that we can not afford it when in 2009 we pissed away 20 bil in Indiv tax relief, and 75 bil into protecting our banking systems....and thenm bark about the military is spending to much back under the table....Sorry i don't buy it....take a look at the entire budget and tell me right now there is not things we can live without....then tell me there is no money sit down.... Are you saying david is full of shit....i mean he does confer with DND on a daily basises ....he's getting his sources form within DND....I say that because we have been told at the unit level that the CCV and the APV and other veh programs have been canceled....as we where suppose to be one of the units testing them....but that is here say, i understand.

I think Dizzy's pionts are bang on, he's done some reporting in Afghan .

So you did'nt read it....Thanks for coming out...you've made up your mind and thats that...nothing anyone says or does will change that...for you it was all about holding someone accountable....right and wrong....appling the same standards we have here at home in our towns and cities to over there in combat...the two do not compute, are not compatiable...are not the same...In combat you have split second decisions to make, the gunner thought they were going to fire so he did and the right people died... ...end of story....and now he will live with that the rest of his life...his government investagated and found nothing it was a good shooting....but this soldier will live with this the rest of his life..... Thats not what i said i said thats what you get when you don't do it for the cover of a bradleys .... And thats what these reporters died for so you could have your news....from a different prespective...had they down it from a US bradlys think the story would have changed....

Read the US army report....and you'll find it was not a accident it was a legit shooting....If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quakes like a duck odds are it's a FUUUking duck... There was a military operation on going....as for the chooper they like to strike at a distance, so they may have heard it or got a glance at it....but thats was it.... Ya, i'm complete clueless about the dangers in a war zone...and about the money if it was all about the money ....i'd of never served 3 tours in Afghan....but a million dollars...i'd do a 4 th tour.... Been reading the papers again i see....Ya your nations military are brutes, who spit on the conventions that this great nation signed on to....is that the speach you read....or was it that our soldiers have kept thier end up of the conventions, and it was alittle higher up the chain of command your shooting at....

I'm a big fan of her as well....

DId you even read the report the US army filed on this incident ...someone provided for your veiwing pleasure in this topic....read it...but first let me ask you this...All day the Americans had been conducting operations within the area....lots of shooting, troops all over the place....I know my first reaction would be call up a buddy grab my RPG and go take a look...better yet answer this for me...During hunting season do you dress up like a deer and talk walks in the woods....Why is that...because someone will pop a cap in your ass...shit we even wear bright orange just so we can see the other hunters....so in this case this civilians as you called them dress up and look like deer and in a war zone thats not a really good idea...in dact in borders on retarded.... I did'nt say anything about censership....i said shit happens in combat...we already covered the civilian aspect i think....in a combat zone YOU CARRY A WPN openly your a target read the genva convention....You stop being a civilian and become a combantant play with the big boys and you'll get dead.... Don't tell me that shit....they are human just like the rest of us....sure it is thier job to report the news...but what will pay more sitting in a Bradly thats gets an IED strike....or filming an maerican unit getting shot up by insurgents....they're after the peice of news that will be shown world wide....or they would of all been home doing special interest stories....I've been in combat and seen these guys in action...we call them bullet magnets...nobody wants to be the guy next to the film guy....becuase at 300 meters it looks like a huge sniper scope...

He can't becuase history is only for making his pionts, and can't be used again'st him...

I don't think your understanding what i'm saying...With ONLY a 20 bil dollar budget and NO outside funding DND can not meet it's purcurment goals....All one has to do is take alook at the small slice DND has left for projects each year. and then cost each of the projects we have currently on the books... It would take decades just to replace the capabilities we currently have... Thats Bull crap and you know it, we have not recieved any more new equipment since Lebanon with exception of the C-17's....Our Navy had to rent borrow, and steal....to get the equipment it needed to evac those people to cyprus where they bordered Civiy flights home to Canada.... C-17 Are stragic aircraft...meaning you don't risk them in a med intensity conflict, by landing them on an unsecured airfield...thats what we have Hercs for....and that option was struck of the list as it would have been to costly in regards to lifes lost...soldiers lives and civilians lives....we also had that rented RO RO ship you've talked about...but it could not get there in time , nor was it cleared for a combat zone as it's crew is civilian....So what did Haiti show us...I'm confused... In time of conflict here is what NATO looks for.....Combat troops, yes we have them very good ones...but if we add up all our combat arms personel it's 12,500 that includes Inf ,Armoured, Arty, and Cbt Engs.... you do the math.... It looks for modern tanks....We do have 60 Leo IIA4's sitting in a warehouse waiting to be upgraded, we also have leo A4 about 40 sitting in Edmonton....but they were made in the 70's.... Looking for mordern CCV....we have LAVIII made for Med intensity combat at best....but ours are worn out Looking for Heavy Arty...got none , sitting in a warehouse there to old We do have up graded CF-18....but when your looking for mordern equipment CF-18 comes up at the bottom of the list.... We do have a Navy that performs very well with US fleets...Thats is a bonous for now... We have x 4 C-17 excellent aircraft...but to few.... So what is it that we have to offer....i meqan when you put it into context we are a G-8 nation we are 7 th in spending in NATO.... That is right.... the orginal project was to replace the LAV III with New built LAV H "built in Canada" and supplement that fleet with Rebuilt LAV III to the same standard....so there would be enough vehs in the forces for all that use them to have them....The Bn i'm in now is lucky we have 2 companies worth of LAV's out of 3 and a few support vehs ...other Bn are running one 1 companies worth vice 3..... So the projects has been changed Now we will recieve rebuilt ones, have have to make do once again...with even less...as there is no vehs to replace the Battle losses in Afghan.... On scedule, contract was signed in 2009, they were suppose to make 100 vehs a day according to the contract....well sir it's 2010 and still no sign of this veh at any of the Brigade units....must be stuck in traffic...What i will give you is that we have recieved the Milcot version, or should i say the reserves have, but those can not be used as they burst into flames every once in while.... CCV My link New Patrol veh,: Entire program has been shelved, postphoned until when ever.... New Recce Veh,: This program has been postphoned as well No fuinding available... Not according to this article these projects have been canceled twice before already....and this veh is once again on the chopping block.... Tpav My link Really have you read this.... FWSAR My link Not according to this article, JSS has been around for years, still no firm design nor, contractor.... JSS My link Here is a funney article , most of what have been said i've heard from navy guys as well Navy My link Apparnetly some airfoerce officails are worring now.... F-35 My link All very much needed equipment, and all of it was required yesterday....most of it was pushed through , but you know as well as i do our purcurement sys is broken....and unless there is some policitcal edge to be had most of it will sit in limbo.... AN225 My link Having some big aircraft is not sucking , but it hardly puts us on the prower projection scale you think it does....like i said 4 c-17 might be able to get a company worth of men , supplies and vehs into battle hardly enough to scare any nation into action....but as a G-8 nation we should be able to do more than we can... Says NATO, says i don't remember how many US presidents, Govenors, shit even european coutries....have express thier opinions that Canada's military is under manned, under equiped, and in danger of become obsolete... I don't think the sky is falling i know it is ...I see it every time we go on exericise, and combat troops in a mech out are trucked or bused out because we don't have enough LAV's....that is just the start of the ice burg....the list of examples is huge...

Sorry Wyle, but they are not forgotten, I've been approached dozens of times by Afghan civilians who thank me and my comrads for thier service, and our sacrifices....as for Canadians we will remember them during the many rememberance day ceremonies....And at the Unit level thier Names will be scribed in our Units history, and read aloud on serveral occassions through out the year....Soldiers will sit down over some beers and tell stories of the fallen, the funney shit, the sad shit, NO sir they will not be forgotten...

based on what evidence ? No but the living sure appricate it....and as for the rest is your opinion....

What did you think combat was going to be like....a clean surgical enviroment...full of sane men taking thier time and making sane decisions ....you got a small visual sample of combat....Murphys law says anything that can go wrong will go wrong.... in the bad guys case thier entire day went to shit....in the medias case should have picked the winning side to film....Bad guys were out to kill some americans....the media guys were there to cash in on that film....both paid a heavy price... And to answer your question, Canadian ROE's are alot tighter but this scene would be a lawful shoot...

Murder....how so....tell me those armed insurgents were not out to engage american forces....as they had been doing all day.... does anyone not take an RPG out to the market....or go bird hunting with....Heres the rules of engagement...if your in a known conmbat zone and carry a wpn openly your a target period....those that were unarmed....well shit mister what do you think they were there for...they wanted to see thier boys get some....and while ROE have them as still civilians to be aviod if possiable.....the gunner did think key word here is think or percieved that they where going to fire an RPG on american forces....i guess those poor inocent civilains that came out to see some american get waxed....got more than his money worth ....The media crew where out to film the same event they knew the risk...and paid the price...guess they should have been in those Bradlys instead....

Then you don't understand the Taliban, or the other terrorist gangsters in this tragic event...sometime the only way to fight fire is with fire....and in this case the biggest stick wins.... Our losses as tragic as they are, have been light, compared to other conflicts this nation has been in....what you have lost sight of is everyone of those soldiers volunteered, they saw something about Afghan that they thought the risk would be worth it....let me ask you this every had that feeling....every sat down and thought if i accept this mission it could cost me my life.....Our soldiers are doing that everyday for years....Canadians think they know what freedom is all about....when really everyone needs to see what absolute caus looks like, smells like, tastes like....and once you see it...then you'll know what a great gift we could provide them with just a little peace....This is what our soldiers are providing and why they risk thier lives for.... The Civilians caught up in this conflict are what personally got me to come back 3 tours....each time i left i had to look them in the eyes and tell them i had to return to my family , friends and way of life...knowing full well life for them was going to be a day to day struggle, for food, shelter, water...who was going to keep the bad guys away in the middle of the night....the end of each tour was the worse for me....it ripped my guts out knowing in less than 12 hours i'd be home eating steak drinking beer, listening to my kids giggle and laugh....and while we might not be loved or even liked by all the population....those we did help are freinds for life....and trust me for every horror story you read about in the media there is 10 good will stories that did not get reported....because blood sells papers.... Down kanadar looks like any other middle east city, cars , trucks commerence, cell phones, lap tops in cafes ....everyone chasing a buck.....and while they are not all university educated do not sell them short...most of the men have good educations....doctors, engineers, etc etc... SO as most Canadians are letting out thier breath with our new reployment date in 2011, it's not something we should be proud of....it is what most Canadians want....it's not what our soldiers want...yes we are tired of this war, but we want to finish it, to be able to look our allieds in the face , shake hands , and say thanks for coming out....i want to be able to give those Afghan civilians the same .... a fighting chance at a stable life, without war and all of what it brings.... Nobody really knows what they have until they loss it...or see the consquences of lossing it....the gifts and freedoms we have here in this nation are plentyful....and i can not for the life of me know why we can not share them.... every time i land in Canada i kiss the ground and thank god for being Canadian...because i've seen the worse...and i know what a great gift we all have....

Some of the basic capital aquisitions have been listed for you , 20 bil a year will not allow any of that to be purchased..... I'm sure those Canadians stuck in Lebanon did'nt give a rats ass either until they had to be rescued by our military forces in rented, borrowed , stolen equipment.... Having the right equipment is more than being able to project power, having grand schemes of conquoring the world, it's about defending Canada as a nation here at home and abroad....it's about giving those soldiers who have decided this is what they want to do...the tools to do it with.... In order to be part of any alliance you must have something to offer, if our equipment is outdated or incompatable we are not going to be able to function as a team....your going to be sitting on the bench... Not even close....

Sorry above quote was for 2009, in 2010 tax breaks amount to 3.5 bil..... My linkwww.budget.gc.ca/2009 Tax Relief for Canadians Budget 2009 will deliver $20 billion in personal income tax relief over 2008–09 and the next five fiscal years. Effective January 1, 2009, this includes: Increasing the basic personal amount and the top of the two lowest personal income tax brackets by 7.5 per cent above their 2008 levels, so that Canadians can earn more income before paying federal income taxes or before being subject to higher tax rates. Raising the level at which the National Child Benefit supplement for low-income families and the Canada Child Tax Benefit are phased out, providing a benefit of up to $436 for a family with two children. Effectively doubling the tax relief provided by the Working Income Tax Benefit to encourage low-income Canadians to find and retain a job. Providing up to an additional $150 of annual tax savings for low- and middle-income seniors through a $1,000 increase to the Age Credit amount. Introduction and Overview No, i'm not about raising taxes, i'm about the even distribution of taxes, and not neglecting our military as i've grown qiut fond of my ass and would like to keep it....atleast for now... None, the link i provided you has plenty of excess if you look are you aware our government in 2009 spent over 85 bil in Improving Access to Financing and Strengthening Canada’s Financial System....if we can throw this amount around without blinking and yet choke when we talk about 5 extra bil for the military i think we have a problem.... Have you read the budget reports , are you telling me everyone is chipping in to pay down this deficit we are in...if it is such a big deal then everyone should be touched....does that mean they can cancel our 3.5 bil in tax breaks this year....i'm good with that....but thats not what is happening the first place everyone looks is DND to suck it up....and what i'm saying what little meat is on the bone will be gone after we pull out of this event....

What a crook of shit... Just a while back the Majority of Canadians wanted Canadian soldiers to go over a kick the guts out of the taliban....can we say now that was based on emotion....because we had a hard on for womens and childrens rights....we are the Canadians... warriors of basic human rights....were we thinking clearly when we decided to send our boys into battle.....who's kids were we thinking of then...when the first combat cas came home....I know you've been again'st this war since the start, so your off the hook, you hold no responsabilty for anyone actions....Yes. yes ....you've done your part to return the troops, you've attended rallys , joined a forum, to voice your displeasure....you've done your job as a citizen...If we where all thinking clearly we would have done things differently... Thier vioce needs to be heard, we all owe them that much.... Those other kids you talk about are currently soldiers in our nations Military....an armed force that has signed up to put thier lifes at risk in order to defend this nation.....we knew the risks before we got involved....same as most Canadians should have.... As for the Game....NATO will decide when the game is over....and as long as our allieds are over there risking thier lives we should be as well...our soldiers have recarved out our fighting abilities, regained our allieds trust in regards to dependabilty as soldiers....our soldiers have made this mission thiers because most Canadians dropped that ball long ago....this mission is almost at an end....we need to show the world we can and will stick by until then....anything else would be embrassing, and undo some of the work we've paided for in blood sweat, and tears....

Well this year alone Canadians recieved 20 Bil in tax cuts....That in itself would go along way to reducing our debt and fund some more depts....all without increaseing taxes....and if you look at the national Budget there are dozens of programs in there that could be trimed or taken out completely...So ya there are funds, out there we just need to look at all these programs and ask ourselfs do we really need them.... LAV veh fleet: Currently being modified to rebuild current fleet....no new vehs in the forecast... ,New Patrol veh,: Entire program has been shelved, postphoned until when ever.... New Recce Veh,: This program has been postphoned as well No fuinding available.... new Logistic wheeled vehs,: In the works, still no funding or contract.... New AOR's : This program of JSS has been shelved,no funding ,no contract, no design, not even a builder interested.... New destroyers : Come on nothing is even on the screens , sure we have a few guys doing some research, but nothing planned , New SAR aircraft: Sole sourceing has this program stuck in limbo, last i read we could expect something operational near 2017....and yet no funding or contract in place... replacement for F-18,....Yes we've put funding away for this to pay for our access to tech , but we've yet to indicate or even sign onto the F-35 yet...so really this project is in limbo.... So my question is were is the funding...and if funding was available we should atleast have a project reporting everything is fine on scedule, contractors picked out.... Power projection (or force projection) is a term used in military and political science to refer to the capacity of a state to conduct expeditionary warfare, i.e. to intimidate other nations and implement policy by means of force, or the threat thereof, in an area distant from its own territory. This ability is a crucial element of a state's power in international relations. Any state able to direct its military forces outside the limited bounds of its territory might be said to have some level of power projection capability, but the term itself is used most frequently in reference to militaries with a worldwide reach (or at least significantly broader than a state's immediate area). Even states with sizable hard power assets (such as a large standing army) may only be able to exert limited regional influence so long as they lack the means of effectively projecting their power on a global scale. Generally, only a select few states are able to overcome the logistical difficulties inherent in the deployment and direction of a modern, mechanized military force. While traditional measures of power projection typically focus on hard power assets (tanks, soldiers, aircraft, naval vessels, etc.), the developing theory of soft power notes that power projection does not necessarily have to involve the active use of military forces in combat. Assets for power projection can often serve dual uses, as the deployment of various countries' militaries during the humanitarian response to the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake illustrates. The ability of a state to project its forces into an area may serve as an effective diplomatic lever, influencing the decision-making process and acting as a potential deterrent on other states' behavior. My linken.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Tanks for one, Heavy armoured support vehs, and while yes we can carry more than one lav in a C-17 , it is a stratigic asset, these aircraft are not flown into a hostile airspace, thats what the hercs are for...and they only carry one stripped down lav at a time....So really any load wieghing over 50 tones is a no go... Haiti what was needed in Haiti troops and supplies...nothing heavy...so ya haiti was a breeze.... From what your saying all you need is a few C-17 type aircraft to project power then there is alot of nations that can...The France,Italy,Spain,China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Germany,Qutar, UAE, most of the old russian warsaw pact countries...to name a few...in fact there is alot more if you want to include Amphb forces.... Having some big aircraft is not sucking , but it hardly puts us on the prower projection scale you think it does....like i said 4 c-17 might be able to get a company worth of men , supplies and vehs into battle hardly enough to scare any nation into action....but as a G-8 nation we should be able to do more than we can... Right now we are still in recover mode, with alot of ground to cover just to maintain our current capabilities....there is room in our budget to make some major changes,aas little as 5 additional billion every year would allow us to knock off some of these major projects , lets not forget, alot of these projects we've have already lost or will lose those capabilities shortly....SAR aircraft i mean come on....how old are they....Destroyers, not to mention many capabilites we no longer have such as Amoured Self propelled Arty, a modern air defense sys, a 120mm motar platform, and each element has it's long list of problems...

For what it matters i think Dizzy's theory is right on the money, for a couple of reasons, The lack of any roto assets did infact reflect on the death toll, you don't have to be a rocket sciencetist to figure out more road traffic will increase the IED threat...Deaths have been down by a huge margin since our current roto assets hit the ground....It should be noted that during our orginal order of CH-47F helos, the US offered to give us a prioty buy on used CH=47D models, we declined and stated we would wait....thats after the military briefing the government , screaming at the government that these machines would save lives....the following year we ended up buying those Ch-47D anyways....And the proof of all that is reduced cas figures...Helo's save lives...but then again what is a soldier worth? As for working from the Air, we are doing it all the time, chinooks give us the speed and mobility we lacked, it puts troops in any grid square at any time, with surprise....it gives us another tool in the box, and for soldiers in combat we need all the tools you can get...

You paint a pretty rosey picture, going back almost 10 years, your right the Forces budget has almost doubled in 10 years going from 10.6 in 2000, to almost 19.2 in 2009. keeping well above the inflation factor.... And yet even with staying ahead of inflation increases, the price of new equipment has more than doubled, in fact it has almost tripled in alot of cases. take alook at our orginal Leopard tank purchase each tank was est at 250 k per unit...our used Leapard II A4 ran close to 1 mil per, the cost of a brand new Leopard II A6 is over 2.5 mil per unit...So keeping ahead of inflation is a mout piont when talking about the way it effects the entire Forces budget...and how much new tech costs... But let me ask you this how many of those years did DND go into the red, actually over spending it's budget to get all the jobs it was assigned ? The first years of the Afghan mission ran DND into the whole, and while the goverment did extend it's budget , it came at a cost to DND as well with cuts to training, equipment purchases etc etc.... How much more funding good question, one can not really answer that until Canadians tell DND what it is they want us to do...A new white paper would be nice, but then again white papers cost governments funding....without a white paper, or going off the old white paper then we will need more, how much more would depned on what major projects they want to fund, such as replacement LAV veh fleet,New Patrol veh, New Recce Veh, new Logistic wheeled vehs, New AOR's for the Navy, New destroyers , New SAR aircraft for the Airforce, replacement for F-18, That is what is needed today in order for them to come in on time ....There is dozens of other projects that need to be looked at as well....just to allow us to maintain what capabilites we have.. Power projection is the abilty to land troops via the shore or via airbourne means and sutain them until further assets can be brought to bear or the mission is completed....normally equated with say an Aircraft carrier group, or a marine Amph Group, Having a few transport aircraft does not give you these capaibilites...it does give you the ability to drop troops any where, but getting them back is the hard part if things turn hostile....And our Navy is not large enough or have the firepower to support any landings for any great of time...let alone supply a ground force in combat. Keep in mind our C-17 are not the only aircraft keeping Afghan in business, our airbuses and Herc fleets run steady to keep our force of 3500 troops equiped....we still rely on other Nations to bring in the heavy stuff.. Yes the CF has been busy everyone of us had some role to play in those taskings, but to maintain that pace we just can't without high rates of burn out....But to accomplish that it took almost all of the CF...had anything else come up we'd been Screwed.... That big honkin ship, would be a start something in an LSD -17 would fit the bill, seen how we've already taken it out for a test drive serveral times already...some new destroyers to protect it... C-17 owners is actually quit a few, The US , Britain, Austraia, Canada, NATO Straticgic airlift program, Qatar, UAE,India is looking along with South Korea....But there are many other coutries out there with simlar Stratigic aircraft of russian design... I did not say it was...but in a major event, DND is the biggest show in the country, and we have had a hard time dealing with small events such as the ice strom , or Winnipeg floods....and would be very much overhemled in a major even..such as katrina, or earth quake...and while thier overwhelmed people are going to at risk becuase of it....