Army Guy

Yes it would mean that we would have to make major changes , in all the forms we do business in and at all levels. But our current method has already proven to be very wasteful...Now what new system could be adopted i'm not sure, i'm not a bean counter, but i do know the current system does not work very well. And if a new method can not be found, then the current one needs to be changed....perhaps taking budget controls away from unit, and brigade levels and return them to Army level, and National level.....where it use to be....returning to things like Department of supply and services, which use to provide the entire federal government with things like PP&S, General goods,office furniture, which it purchased in massive bulk orders.....then distributed to depts on a "as needed basis", i know thats going back awhile...Returning to national or regional contracts for items such as POL products, fuels etc.... and the examples go on....The original intent of dismantling these national contracts was to open the DND market up to the small guy or business, and while it does a great job putting tax payers dollars into small business there is no economy of scale, no savings, no standards are kept, it is an example of using DND funding to help our economy grow at the cost of doing business effectively and getting more bang for our dollar.... Sorry i did not clarify, those type of purchases would have to be directed by the elements command, however at the base level, or brigade level, some of these unused unit budgets could be redirected to from army level, or element level back down to Base commanders for infra structure improvement...A good example of this is CFB Gagetown has been planning to do a major expansion of the Base hospital, well as long as i've been here, it is planned, but the funding approval has yet to be approved by NDHQ.....the base has side stepped a lttle bit by using it's surpluses and purchasing ATCO trailers for hospital staff to work out of.... Now the new building has a deign, it has been planned over and over, all it is waiting for is funding.....By allowing say Army element to stuff surplus funding in a couch it would be able to use a brand new fiscal year to launch this type of construction.... I agree with you 100% over the years 6 plus bil is a huge amount, but we both know infra struture investments are not very sexy....if they were would we really have WWII hangers....I guess my piont is there must be something that can be done, to tighten the purse strings so smart purchases can be made....so one day infra structure improvements are done across the board....so funding is not turned in, or wasted in a use it or loss it system.... Part of the problem is that when a surplus is realized and all efforts to spend that surplus fails.....it is often to late to spend that surplus else where....Becuase it a must be spent in that fiscal year, or the time to put in place a contract from PWSG takes months....they are then forced to turn it in up the chain , brigade then starts pushing units to spend, and when they fail up it goes until the very last day then it hands bils back into the government.....And this happens year after year after year....like clock work.... Thats the point perhaps budgets are to large or they are not controlled very well. so with out changing the whole accounting structure, and all the chaos that would create, slash the budgets at the start of the year, use this new found funding some where else...which will force unit commanders to be more vigilant with their funding, and allow national or element commands to fund other projects like infra structure , buying a new plane, tank, or upgrades to that equipment.....I know this is a temp solution at best , but maybe it will give us the time to find a better solution... Yes there is always the images of the Col and the temptation to use that funding for less than legal actions....but other the other side having 5 years of shit paper on a shelve for 5 or more years just shows the lack of imagination, and wastefulness of this current system....when it could of gone to things like putting in new heating systems in the barracks....or a new hospital....

I was going to point that out, but got distracted, The entire Federal and provincial government use the same system....which if misused leads to nothing but waste....The system has been proven to be wasteful a thousand times....But what if some form of leadership took the bull by the horns....and offered solutions....one could cut DND budget by billions, and rather than using that in say OEM budgets, give it to those existing projects at the start of the year, forcing units to spend wisely..... Or with some foresight as all budgets are monitored throughout the year , use those surplus to purchase items such as spare parts, or smaller purchases such as Ammo, small arms, upgrades, i could list thousands of items that have already have a sole source, or previous contract.....as you quoted with the C-17.....But the time the surplus are realized it's to late ....once again funding has to be spent and delivered before 31 March, changing some of our purchase policies, would in my opinion bring about wiser expenditures, done for the greater good of DND and not because some commander wanted to save face and spend all his funding or face losing that funding later..... As for construction or upgrades to infra structure very little can be built in what remains in the year, but if our policies were to be changed so those funds could be used in another year, then perhaps commanders would spend wisely, save for these types of purchases, rather than waiting for DND to fund them which as we both know is a very long process..... I would agree if, we were purchasing a new to the forces item.....and for those i agree should be run at the national procurement level.....However what if we wanted to buy C-17 spares, like new engines or expand national inventory, we both know you can't have enough spares.....there is already a contract in place or was one at one time, most spares can be soled sourced, after all we want them to be the same as what we are currently using....Ammo is perhaps a better example than spares because it is sole sourced for the most part..... Another solution would be to allow the depts to put cash in the couches , with some over sight of course so it could expand on tactical equipment or with approval strategic equipment such as C-17's... That and a shit load of other projects.....

And yet, millions of Canadians have fallen for that liberal crap....and they are once again in the running for office....just how short are Canadians memories....

And while the government ultimately will hold the blame bag for these failures, and we continue to run with a financial accounting system that not only encourages waste, but is based on wasting tax payers dollars....It takes leadership to make changes that makes sense. The current system is based on a use it or loss it method, and does not encourage any Federal dept to be spend it funding wisely.....in fact it encourages waste, the all " famous" end year rush to spend surplus funding from the 1 st line Unit right up to the top....it had come down from the top chain of command "make sure your budgets are zero'd or over spent by 10 %"....In this rush there is little thought put into these purchases, i remember one year the RQ shop spent 100,000 on toilet paper, to name a few unless items, that was 5 years ago, and the shelves are still full.....OK i know what your thinking how could that be possible the ARMY is full of shit" .....there would be thousands of examples of this type of spending just to get rid of funding..... This type of spending requires a lot of thought to be put into it, it needs a small army of workers to plan and manage , within the Army at the 1 line unit level there is the DCO, who can be any trade , and only has minimal financial training, the rules are laid out and he is expected to follow them....no other training provided.....the next guy on the list is the Unit QM a logistical officer, who has the same training as the DCO, both manage the budget, and spend it.....This practice goes up the entire chain of command.....not one guy has the experience or qualifications to manage a multi million dollar budgets.....

I'm just curious what role DND played in these shortfalls failed or delayed projects....Reason i ask is there is a lot of ammo that points that way in numerous projects..... The handing back billions, in unspent funding , is criminal when considering the shape the forces is in now...Not changing the spending policies is criminal as well.....it leaves a black mark on the reputation of DND....

one could always hope things will be different next time.....As for Omar he's paid his debt, life will go on.....like you said them's the breaks....

Your comment has thrown me for a loop, Smallc , have you changed directions, there was a time in which you could not say enough about the cons military spending....why the change for the NDP ?

Do they not ask those questions on the immigration forms.....

that would be a great rumour....but we have all heard NDP say he was not going to run a deficit so where does the money come from.

If that was true, then why has the SCC struck down several bills, say like bill 51 and others......I ve read how the government is suppose to work, parliament has the authority to make or change any law, bill or constitution item it wants....please explain....

Watching her in the debates and on the media, she is good.....i may not like all of her policies, but she is always prepared, with details and facts.....far more than the other guys.....rarely does she wing it or spew the same pre programed answers over and over....i much rather see her than the NDP or Liberals in charge....to bad she was'nt more on the right.....

Sorry, no self identity crises here, your not interested in debating , giving short jokes for answers is not what i'm interested in.

Sad but true, but it is done to make killing easier, it also stirs the public into disliking them as well, making support for the cause easier....every nation that has gone to war has used this type of thinking....

Eyeball: That does not answer the question, you said he could not have been convicted in a Canadian court of law...... I get the fact young me Khadr was illegally conscripted ( another inter national law that has seen how many convicted of it again) that he had little control over his life......During the Nuremberg trails large numbers of NAZI soldiers had also tried the same defense, either i was following orders, or i had no choice.. and at the end of the war many of those soldiers were also under 15 years of age..... Inter national states that a combatant is responsible for their own actions, that includes the the right and wrong ones... not only combatants but everyone.....It does not give any mention of an age limit....todays laws state that special consideration should be given to children, but that it does not preclude punishing them for serious crimes.....Murder is one of those crimes.... I do get your point, i also get that you don't fully trust the government, and for me i don't fully trust the Canadian public and their abilities to make informed decisions on all topics....But like have have said numerous times, when this mission first started Canadians did not revile the mission they fully supported it.....Over time they grew upset over it.....not to the point they would do anything about it, just they no longer supported it..... From my boots, i and thousand of Canadian soldiers were left in the middle, with no support meant no more funding....funding for things like tanks, desert camouflage, harden vehs to name a few....i know what your thinking we got all of that....yes we did but in order to get it Canadian soldiers had to pay the cost in lives lost.....from my side of the fence that is not support that's contempt...... And while this went on Soldiers started thinking "fuck them " we can do this on our own, we can make a difference here....Ya thats a sobering thought, the very soldiers that represent our nation now thinking we were alone in a conflict , with bad guys on one side and Canadians that did not give a shit on the other......we made the Afghan conflict our own, hence why soldiers were not to happy to leave not because we are war mongers, because we had not completed the job the Canadian people had sent us there to do, the same people that left us there for 10 plus years.... Sorry for the rant, that is why i don't think a referendum idea would work that and many other different reason, Canadians don't give a shit...they can barely get out to vote every 4 years, how many do you think would come out to vote on any topic....then of course our government is slow enough when it comes to making decisions see Rwanda....took them 10 plus weeks or more to agree to send in some troops, the killing was done, crises over...i wonder how long it would it take to have a referendum, educate the people on the topic, get them to the polls, get the results , then have the government spring into its routine.....In theory i do like it, but in reality i don't think it would work.... Thats just it eyeball, to you he was a defenceless child. while in Afghanistan he was of military age....regardless of what the conventions or inter national law say's......Terrorists did not sign on to any rules, the Taliban did not give a rats ass about Inter national law, and they employed thousands of underaged males as combatants....And none of them will be brought before the courts to answer for that......they did their dirty work for an organization who's sole purpose in life was to bring terror to millions of Afghanis people, so they could live out their twisted version of the Koran... I seen these terrorist in action to many times to forget they're deeds, to many times to think of them as defenceless children.....Omar was just one of many, who would gladly collect the bounty on any western head, including yours..... If you really think that man kind is going to change over the morality of war.....i think your crazy.....if WWII and everything that went along with that, mass killings, fire bombings, death camps, and what did it change ....What makes you think a few small conflicts are going to do it.....i think the only ones that this will effect is those that have experienced it, not just vets but those that lived through it as well.....

I'd be curious to know how many of those Muslims were killed by Muslims.....Killed by their own countrymen, or Muslims from around the world just trying to get in on the killing because it was their right to fight Jihad.....Maybe we should just take responsibility for every muslim's life around the world throw them in the count as well, after all they must have died due to something the west did......

The current government has some issues...The claw back of long term medical pensions was one of them....some bean counter thought it would be a great way to save funding, and it was, and is on the backs of our vets....There are pros and cons to this issue, government policy is made to benefit the majority....But don't use it as an excuse " See what happens when you vote for Harper" ..... I'm sure if we laid it all out on the table the history of the military.....and what parties that have damaged the military, along with the rest of the security apparatus the liberal list would far exceed any other party in our history....search decade of darkness.....it's got liberal finger prints all over it.... I can hardly wait to see what damage the NDP will do, in the end vets should be allowed to punch voters in face and say "stick it" like the commercial says.....

I gave you 2 examples one from the Canadian government web site and one from Inter national law. Inter national law gives us the building bricks in which we can as a nation set up our own Sovereignty....it does not ensure you keep it, or grow upon it....that is the nation that does that... I gave you the perfect example , the one in ref to our 200 mile exclusive economic zone, this is unique to Canada normal inter national waters only cover 12.5 miles....If there was no way to enforce this, here in Canada this is done via our navy or coast guard.... other nations would disregard this law and do what ever it wanted....then would would have things like the turbot war, in which Spain and a few other nations, had told canada they would fish any where they liked.....It ws our navy that enforced those Canadian laws.....and many more when it comes down to our nations Sovereignty.... I never said that Canada needs a large military, what i indicated was our current strength is to small, and under equipped for our land mass. I get that, but there must be some buried deep inside your head, if there was'nt why all the whining, why does it bother you if you clearly have no feels for the country you reside in now.... there is always an airport open, and there will always be someone waiting in the wings to take your place,.... Grass is always greener on the other side.....until you cross the fence.....Not sure Americans want whiners , they after all represent everything you are again'st here.....I'm sorry i can not respond any more, you do not want to debate but instead make little jokes......if your not happy then take some action to change things , if you can't or won't then pack and leave.....maybe it will be me that saves a couple hundred bucks....

look i by no means am i an expert......but I think before Suicide becomes an option alot of things have already passed, but those i watch go through this process, there has always been a series of events.....trouble at work, good soldiers coming in late, missing key appointments, their performance dropping, as these pressures grow, so do other problems, trouble at home is now a major factor, hard for wives and kids to adjust to all these changes as well, that friction just grows until the relationship breaks down, adding another stressor.....drinking and drugs and getting into trouble with the law.....leading to perhaps dismissal from the job, which leads to self doubt over ones worth.... i have never understood the pain, either, nor could i imagine how powerful it is....but i have talked to a few guys that say it comes to a point it is all they can think off....ending it all .....is it a cowardly act, i used to think so....but not any more....nor do i believe it is a brave act.....just a person that has lost hope, and has run out of options, and is not thinking clearly...it takes time to heal, lots of time, and lots of people to make a difference.....hard to convince someone they are worth the effort when they don't believe they are themselves.

According to Websters :Terrorist..... the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal. : Freedom fighter......a person who is part of an organized group fighting against a cruel and unfair government or system. Pretty Clear to me, Omar was part of a known terrorist group, that happened to be in Afghanistan, the Taliban used them as their strong arm to terrorize the citizens of Afghanistan.....The Taliban although enjoyed the support of thousands of Afghan citizens, but for the majority of afghan citizens they were forced though the use of terror and punishment so the Taliban movement could live in a world of their dreams, their own take on Islam.....forcing millions to take part in this nightmare or face death....They were nobodies freedom fighters, just plain terrorist..... The rules of war although they are not many and they are simple they are important, to avoid needless killing of civilians or non combatants , and to govern those involved in a conflict with some dignity, and compassion....break those rules and those guilty are war criminals, and can be held accountable for their actions, or in case of the conventions would not be entitled to some of it's protections....SO ya it is again'st the rules for a civilian dressed in regular street cloths with no armband or marking to id them as combatants to engage soldiers....this rule is not to protect soldiers it is to protect civilians you are not combatants .....along with the other rules of war that terrorist break....And it's called warfare.... How did that work out, just before the invasion the taliban had refused US request to hand over Bin Ladin, and told the US they would defend him. i guess you can't talk to terrorists.....ISIS has got nothing to do with Afghanistan.....try Iraq or Syria...different war....another G Bush adventure.... No, the US took him POW, so they are responsible for his internment and safety....Handing him over to the Afghan government was not an option, Omar would have been buried in the desert long ago.....Legal or not the US government was going to hurt someone for 9/11 besides having a terrorist organization rule with force over millions was not illegal either.....but it was the right thing to do... Glad you brought it up, what implications are you talking about.....clearly your not saying that Children have not been held accountable for the crimes they have committed.....that we as a nation have never charged a child with adult crimes, such as murder....That we have never handed down a modified sentence to under age adults.....because maybe my inter net is different than yours....

Are you saying that with all the evidence again'st Omar , the tapes, etc they could not prove that he aided a terrorist group, spied again'st our allied in time of war, placed mines and IED's that took the lives of other NATO soldiers..... Soldiers do accept full responsibility, but as part of the rules of warfare they expect everyone to step up as well, terrorist do not follow any of the rules and kill without exception, and yet they expect to be treated fairly under the rules everyone else follows.....have the cake and eat it to.....what frustrates me is when they finally face the music.....and are punished for their crimes Canadians scream bloody murder his rights were violated.....Nobody once asked about the Afghan rights he violated.....planting mines and IEDs with out regards to whom set them off......ya nice guy....but we as Canadian shave to hold the high moral ground.....can't be violating a terrorist rights, he is a Canadian citizen....but no tears for the grief he and his comrades have caused the Afghan people..... I get it eyeball to you he was a child.....in Afghanistan he was of fighting age, and treated as an adult....but he was'nt an aghan was he he was a canadian citizen fighting with and for a terrorist organization, which under any law is treason including inter- national law....

Or use this That is about as clear as one can make it, So without a standing military how does a nation enforce any laws or policies regarding not just the defense of the nation and its borders internally as well as externally, How do you enforce these laws. Explain to me how any nation without a military would convince another nation to respect it's laws. Yes Canada is very lucky to be geographically placed on the map, but like many other Canadians you seem to think we are immune to threats from around the globe....today we live in a world were we can be any where in the world within 24 hours, we no longer need massive fleets of ships to project power or do amb landings...and it does not take a massive army to create complete chaos in any nation, the Terrorist in Afghanistan are proof of that..... I think someone once asked how a bunch of goat herders armed with small arms could hold back NATO for 10 plus years.....the threats to Canada are real, whether or not they happen is another question.....But we as a nation must be prepared for every threat, how would the PM explain to the people that it cost to much for defense so we no longer stand on guard for thee.....would you re elect a government if anything happend and they refused to react because they spent that insurance money on some other program.... Most major world events around the world have an impact on our nation one way or the other, some are small, such as handling a few refugees, to major such as sending Combat troops to Afghanistan.....I guess i'm saying we are not an island....The examples you provided are threats, and while you may brush them off your not in charge of 38 million lives, and every threat must be looked at in detail.... Threats to our nation does not mean they have to direct an attack on our nation, we also have foreign interests as well, on top of defensive agreements becuase i mean lets face it ...Our military and it's current condition if faced with a serious threat such as a major earth quake, dirty bomb, major hurricane would be quickly over whelmed and would need outside assistance. To say our military is offensive in nature is almost funny.. considering the size of most of our known enemies..... You may not be saying it directly, but that is what i'm hearing.....todays Canadian military is around 64,000 reg force members, of which maybe 20 % of them are Combat troops , and yet Canadians still complain on the size and the amount we spend on them....Name one country in the world that does not have some form of military force, para military, or security forces let alone with a population as large as ours or as much coast line as we do........ Our nation has rarely spent 2 % of GDP on defense even with a military friendly government. In fact DND only dreams of 2 %, http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/canadian-military-spending-by-the-numbers what do spend the other 98 % of GDP on, if you wanted to take on a crusade why not health care, is it worth the amount we spend on it , are we getting our money worth.....I don't about where you live but here in New Brunswick, waiting times can be as long as 6 to 8 hours.....i have on serveral occasions waited 4 hours to get a prescription fill, no family doctor, that waiting list is 2 or more years..... Perhaps you can explain to me how well diplomacy really works.....you blame the ukraine crisses on the west , i guess we forgot about russia role in that mess, how did diplomacy work in that case, tell me how it has worked in say conflicts in the last 10 years.....How effective has the UN been at diplomacy, Liberal minded thinkers have said diplomacy should be the only wpn in a politicians tool box......can you list some effective examples.....that have resolved issues without the need for military force...... Would you risk your life or the life of your families on that fact or the other 38 million citizens.....Canada without a standing military would be a very mouth watering target for anyone.....it would not be long before we lost our full sovereignty, It would not be in the US best interest to have Canada undefended....and in their own interest they would be force to act.....

Canada already has new defensive agreements with these countries, which include all those that are listed including the US.

Several terrorist organizations, who's goals were to enslave an entire nation through brute force and terror.....so they could preserve a perverted interpretation of the KORAN for their own gains. YA that sounds about right.....and Omar was a part of that, who believe in it so much he risked his own life to take part in it....His family also believed in it, so much they willing were to sacrifice their own sons for the cause..... and yet here we sit today, His family are still residing in Canada, living off the tit of our good will, our tax dollars.....and here is the kicker, we the people of Canada are considering paying Omar off because we violated his basic rights..... The same government that did intervene on his behalf, ensuring he did not receive a death sentence, that he could serve the rest of his sentence in Canada in a Canadian jail..... I just wonder how many Canadian citizens are sitting in foreign jails, serving sentences , did they receive the same treatment.....how many have been transferred to canadian jails....Have their rights been violated, can they sue.....I know lots of questions.... What frustrates me to no end is Canadians have agreed that the action of our government outweighs anything Omar has done....that and the fact that the treatment our soldiers get when killed or wounded fighting our enemies of our nation.....do not merit the time or effort that Omar has received....it sickens me to know that he may profit from his actions while many of my comrades in arms have to cope with handouts.....and Canadian citizens are good with that, and yet hope Omar may get millions for his trouble....

I guess i missed that in history class

In regards to the troops, i think your on the wrong track, going back was not the problem, many of those soldiers that have PTSD have completed multiple tours.....going back although not easy for anyone, was the easy part, after all soldiers have an image to portray as both mental , physically tough as steel....anything less than that, well would question your abilities as a soldier...and for a soldier this is the real beast of burden.....to live up to the recruiting posters.....not to let your comrades down ever.... Regardless of how much training a soldier gets , we still do not properly prepare our soldiers for the sights, smells, noises, and feel of war....we do not train our soldiers on the evil man is capable of....I do know that anyone that has been in a combat zone will come home changed, changes in personalities, moods, habits, different outlook on life, whats important whats not.... everyone handles the experience differently.....but everyone comes back different and will have to contend with all or a few of the above.....coming back to love ones is a special moment, however they are the first to notice the change, they either adjust to the changes, or reject them out right which cause a new external source of grief that a soldier needs to cope with. mental illness requires more than one person to combat....it takes the whole village....loaners normally don't make it.... Lets not forget, these guys were in a combat zone for 6 months or more, living breathing the craft of being a soldier doing so to survive.....then they are plucked out of combat , put on a plane if they are lucky they have some decompression time with their comrades.... normally 3 or 4 days, where we receive some lectures on how to act what to do when back in the real world....., they spend the rest of time getting drunk beyond your wildest imagination, recalling good times and bad times, laughing and crying.........then as if by some miracle your cured go to go..... pushed back on a plane and thrown back into society....where you are expected to be civilized once again....these are all added pressures that all add up, to an over load.....until they can not cope with the simple things in life..... For most we quickly adapt back to normal life, we learn to live with our dreams, accept responsibility for our actions we did , but this for me anyways can take awhile.....for some they can't cope.....they don't come back to normal....they will however put up a wall, hide their pain, live up to those recruiting posters as a tough guy.....until one day they can't live with the pain any more, and decide to leave us.....