Army Guy

Army Guy, I'm trying to make sense of your position. Children can be soldiers, if they follow the conventions and rules of war...even you can be a soldier...when you step outside the rules and conventions then you become an insurgent...anyone any age... Insurgents don't follow the rules of War, break those and yes you commit a crime.... He's 15 , considered a man in the AFghan culture , he already has 7 years training experience and atleast 3 or 4 in combat....he has been charged with some very seriuos crimes, murder, and attempted murder.... You tell me how many children in Canada have been charged with adult crimes and in Adult court...why does that make Omar any differnt and why were you not debating when they got charged or sentenced....

Forced into conflict , your shitting me right....his last 2 years of his life he was not even with a family member or relative...he could have walked away at any time...just as thousand do every day...He wanted to be there, or he's a very lazy escape artist....prove to all of us that like the child soldier from Africa he was forced to partake under threat of death....When has Omar told the courts or anyone that he was forced to fight....he looked scared when he recorded that little vidio of his YA that is one scared mother trucker....he wanted to be a terrorist, yes his parents forced him to take the training...but he wanted to be a terrorist and now we should be nice pat him on the head stop villifing him...he is what he is a terrorist...coming to live in a town near you...

Are you saying Omar is mentally unstable, because that is not what his defence team has been saying... Really justice, spent many hours driving the country side waiting for your veh to blow up, almost every convoy we went out on got blown up atleast once...i can't count how many people i know that have gone through that serveral times...all because little kids like your pal Omar liked planting IED's so ya i have a vested interest in Justice... serving 8 years out of a 40 year sentence is not justice it's a joke... 8 years old. he was 15, he had become a man in Afghan culture 4 years before that, he was a vetern soldier...in Afghan he was a terrorist, he worked for one of the most feared terrorist groups on the planet...and he had been doing it for years, according to since he was 8....Here in Canada he is consider a sweet young boy gone wrong...in Afghan he's a target, a high valued one at that, because he was a bomber...don't tell me i not going to shed any tears over a terroist...tell the widows... ask them what they think of young Omar. Let me ask you this would you have them over for supper, to share a meal with your family...would you leave them alone with your kids...the child soldiers of africa are broken they can't be fixed....Omar is not the same, he did what he did to impress his family...and when he gets out will be the tale of the tape...my money is he is going to want pay back and is waiting and watching....

It may sound like propaganda but it is not, Most medic's while on patrol will not wear Red crosses because it makes them a high valued target remember that at the time that the Taliban and other terrorist org did not sign or agree to follow the rules of war, to them it was a win to kill any high value target becuase of the terror it would create.. The only time i saw medical staff wear their stuff is when they were providing clinics in the villages. hence why they stopped wearing the red cross, they do however carry medical kits which do have the red cross on them, everyone going outside the wire has to be armed with a long barrel, and thinking back even our padre carried one, he never used it but he carried it...So one has to mule this over, a medic could wear all the red and white red crosses , and risk being a high valued target, and be covered under the convention...which is not followed if captured anyways and if the kill the medic just makes whom ever a war criminal if caught....not wear it , not covered , but your armed and can defend yourself....which one would you choose...

I think the government thought if we waited long enough it would blow away and be forgotten I think they should, but i highly doubt they will... In his case it is illegal to kill anyone as he was an insurgent, No it should not and was not be considered any different....Omar changed alot of things for alot of soldiers including Canadians, Soldier are not stupid and watch TV just like the rest of the world...Omar was an insurgent through and through, and the treatment and following he was developing pissed alot of people off.... Aghan is full of very young insurgents "coming of age in Afghan happens at age 11 he becomes a man...by then they have already handled wpns for a few years and know how to handle them...I've always asked why after Omar no other Canadian or US prisoners were taken, i mean there are hundreds over there...but young Omar was the last one to be splashed over the TV...like i said Omar changed things for everyone...

Omar Ahmed Khadr (Canadian) Khadr pleaded guilty to murder in violation of the law of war, attempted murder in violation of the law of war, conspiracy, providing material support for terrorism, and spying for killing a U.S. Army Special Forces Sergeant First Class, for attempting to kill other coalition forces, for building and laying landmines targeting coalition forces, and for spying on coalition forces. He was sentenced to 40 years confinement. Khadr’s pretrial agreement provides for a maximum sentence of 8 years’ confinement. The Convening Authority also agreed to support Khadr’s transfer to Canada to serve the remaining portion of his sentence once he serves an additional year in U.S. custody. I stand corrected he was not charged with killing a medic, but rather Murder of a US soldier.

Nither was the FLQ however the military was called in and martial law imposed. And this is were our laws are not very clear, however that being said there must be a legal piont that the UN invoked as they authorized the use of force, not only Again'st the Taliban and Afghan regime at the time but to all the terrorist organizations within it...Not sure on the number today but well over 15 different groups with different ties. The US used it's many defence pacts to invoke a coalition, such as NATO, etc...an attack on one is an attck on all.. I think this is covered on the War with Terror, and Canada must have agreed to the conditions set by the US/ UN because these terrorist were given high target values in Afghanistan...meaning they wanted them out of the picture quickly and Canadian forces did partake in most of these op's. The UN's rules are still being updated as are our's in regards to stateless targets or declarations....and are under the micro scope as the US attacks more of them in different countries without any agreements with the host countries...

well , Khadr is an insurgent, who does not have the same rules applied to a soldier which is protected under the convention, as they bear arms openily, and wear a uniform which separates them from the rest of the population...however that being said he is covered under almost all the conventions dealing with treatment and care... Aside from that he killed a Army medic who was performing his medical duties at the time....which i mentioned before therefore he is charged with murder.

link

Look at the 6 day war for an example. History is full of them countries doing preemptive attacks becasue the other side was building up.... And while it may be illigal to make the first move, not many countries are going to sit on a war footing for long, some where some how something is going to spark and set the whole thing in flames...

I stand corrected there are 3 types of murder and all 3 are the same as a soldier or a civilian... there is no double standard, a soldier killing another soldier within Canadian laws, international laws, and the conventions is legal...take as many lifes as you want, government will provide the ammo, the other government the targets....It is murder when you fall outside the laws, for instance taking a Civilian life that is involved in the actions of the Battle field...that is murder...take a life of a soldier that is surrendering that is murder...which murder you pick... There is a big difference when a soldier intentionally fires upon a priest or medic carrying out his duties that is murder...as they are protected under the laws and conventions and you can be charged and tried ...be it in Canada, inter national court or a UN sanction court... If your going to play soldier then you got to know the rules, or find yourself in front of a court...

I think your getting confused to whom is AN ARMED FORCE,( AQ is clearly an ARMED FORCE with a clear chain of command and they are engaged with the CF)( 2 rednecks in Alberta could be an amred force.).....Besides A state of war does not need to exist it states so on the bottom line... AQ declared thier intentions by slamming into the towers, that action is a stae of war if done intentionally... Japan attacking pearl Harbour, Germany moving on Russia...Just the act of Building up of troops is an act of war, the act it self carried out in surpriase also an act of war. The US also that day announced the War on Terror....with the AQ having front row seats....

Those are still pretty tight numbers, As i'm sure there are alot more missions that are not accounted for ....Like they don't include training any army guys on things like army FAC course or the basic fast air course....Currently the army is renting Aircraft, A-4 from a Civilian company can't recall from where.

There is discretion, but it has it's limits it's not a free ticket to massicre people because they have a great desire to live, and fear their masters...(And while these African kids to whom the Child soldier laws were designed to protect) look pretty harmless in front of the TV, while in the play ground or at school lets not forget they have raped,tortured, extingished life on a whim....and are very capable of doing it again...you can't turn it off nor can you wash it off...They need to be reeducated , for long periods of time...they are mentally unstable for the lack of better words... And accounting for all that they still need to be held accountable for their actions it is part of the healing process, plus acts as a deterent for others the same age... I don't know why you continue down this road, when our own Canadian children have commited adult crimes and have been treid in an adult court and recieved adult sentences...what makes Omar any different because he was a soldier BS he is a Canadian citizen who stepeed on his dick, and now needs to pay for that mistake...nobody gets a free ride...Murder is Murder be it as a soldier or a civilian...

The AQ actions alone are a formal declaration of war, if i punch you in the face, you don't have to wait until i announce my intentions, it's "game on", you can kick my ass. The US is free to strike back with out inter national agreements, or UN approval, all nations are entitled to defend themselfs...in this case the US took the fight to them...

[quote]© assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are. Assisting an enemy can mean anything from Spying and reporting our movements , convoys, routes ETC this is what Omar did before he got into planting IED's...Offering any assistance that may be helpful to their war efforts... Being a minor means squat on the battlefield if your armed then you are a legal target, it only comes into play after capture and how your treated. Even the new child soldier laws change very little on how they are treated... I want to make this clear a state of war does not have to exist as long as they (a nation or any armed group)are engaged with Canadian forces or their allieds...Although not specifically mentioned they are assumed to be one in the same , if our Nation is part of a coalition or allieds...when these coalitions are formed each country has to agree on basic principles so that they are fighting from the same page, not 15 different types of law, but rather one blended rules of operations manual. the AQ is certianly defined as a group of armed people with a clear chain of command who operate across the planet... Canada did agree to enter the war on terror in this specific mission area...and others.

whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

But he did go to an AL-Qaeda training camp, and he was with other members of AL Qaeda during the fire fight...And the Canadian military was engage with elements of AL Qaeda at the time...

Peter F What are you trying to say that he could not be held accountable as a minor, as our history is full of minors being charged as Adults in Adult courts for serious crimes...which i think treason is pretty serious.... Or is there a clause that states other wise....Even under inter national law it states that children that are deemed child soldiers can be held accountable in court for their actions...it also states to be fair it is not the prefered course of action, but it remains one.

I think the reasons are better discribed below. My link On the surface, that’s a fair analysis. However, it could also be argued that the legal definition of treason is also narrowly based. Our legal parameters simply haven’t included nominal instances of modern treason, such as the FLQ crisis. Instead, there is more focus in modern Canadian law on the lighter charge of sedition, or the rebelling against and/or opposition to an existing order – which is what the FLQ faced as one of its charges. This could ultimately mean that previously understood cases of treason in the past won’t fall (and aren’t falling) under the same legal definition in the present and future. Second, when it comes to punishing those people, our country’s legal and judicial system falls far short of expectations. Activist judges on the Supreme Court of Canada are, as London Free Press columnist Rory Leishman writes, “not loathe to commit major breaks with precedent for the purpose of changing the law to accord with their personal ideological preferences.” With this in mind, it’s unlikely that a future accusation of treason would last long enough to survive the claws of judicial activism in Canada. And if politicians and judges are unwilling to enact proper amounts of punishment for certain crimes, treasonous behaviour will most certainly not be properly punished, either. Third, Canada has a minor role in international affairs and this has arguably led to fewer instances of what be generally agreed on to be treason. While our country is now willing to take the lead in military missions like Afghanistan, support forceful stands against terrorist groups like Hamas, and walk out on UN speeches from vicious tyrants such as Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in spite of this, Canada is still regarded as a middle power (at best) on the international scene. Therefore, it’s a less valuable resource for potential treasonous acts than in larger countries like Britain, Germany, and the U.S. due to a lack of power, influence, key stakeholders and available information. This perception could change in time depending on Canada’s willingness to get involved in world affairs in a post-Harper government. But at this moment, our country’s influence is more associated with strong words rather than brute force – meaning that we are still seen as being a minor player. Fourth, Canada has not suffered Western Europe’s fate with terrorist cells and immigration problems…yet. To date, Canada’s experience with terrorist groups and third world immigration has not reached Western European levels. For instance, it’s true that terrorist groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and Egyptian Islamic Jihad previously established small bases on our soil. But Canada has still not faced France’s 2005 race-based riots, or Denmark’s 2006 cartoon controversy, or wide-ranging concerns that the growth of radical Islamic thought in Western Europe is well underway. It’s possible that Canada could face some of these problems – and more – in due course, which could lead to a surge in treasonous-like activity. For now, this is not the case. This does not mean Canadians should have a lax attitude about treason. Far from it. We should always be on guard to prevent this type of behavioural pattern from spreading, and our laws should become stronger and tougher to make our citizens safer and more secure. But as things currently stand, it appears treason as a common occurrence and a crime actively prosecuted may have run its course in Canadian society.

In lawyer Bob Tarantino’s view, Canada’s definition of treason is rather broad. He wrote, “you do not need to be a Canadian citizen to commit treason, and if you are a Canadian citizen or a ‘person who owes allegiance to Her Majesty,’ any treasonable acts are prosecutable whether they were committed in Canada or outside of the country.” treason ... new admendment proposeal.

Us was still part of the coaltion, and considered an allied, treason still holds, however what the government has quoted is a conviction is unlikely therefore they won't press charges as this would be a political football. My piont is this if we are going to apply justice then it should be done to the fullest extent, not some here some there we don't want to look bad etc, etc... I did not apply that you did, however it is an emotional topic for me. Yes returning soldiers do get some media however how many average Canadians can name 1 Soldier killed in combat, and yet Omar is a house hold name that is the media coverage i'm talking about. They've been rocking the boat since the inception of this thing, what is our government going to do, they can't even find the others that have been deported legally...the whole thing does not leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling. Last time i checked Mom was not a citizen, send her packing the kiddies will follow...

Are you saying that he and his family have not become icons for other terrorists around the globe...including Canada...Sort of how the underdog wins again'st big government....how they used there citizenship of convience again'st us.... I'll give you that, but we still have one with the US in which Omar is in Custody now, where he did not recieve the death sentence, so he should remain to finsih out his sentence. There is more to treason than trying to over throw the government, treason is also classified as partaking in combat again'st Canadian troops or thier allies.... Ya alot of emotion, over many things, seeing comrads killed or wounded, watching your country loss it's interest in the mission, The Khadrs getting more media attention than any Soldier, Canadians ensuring his rights are looked after, while our own get paid out peanuts...No, no emotion there SO we will keep to the facts, -He has been found guilty of most of the charges the US filed again'st him...Talk here in Canada is that he will be released early...Because we think he has been through enough...screw justice and the required sentence, were Canadians we love getting played by terrorists..... Canada has no plans to file other charges again'st him, the treason Charge has been thrown out as unlikely to get a conviction. "Unlikely not impossiable".... - No charges again'st the rest of his family are planed, IE his mother for abuse,neglect ETC as it would not be in Canada's best interest...But then again it's alright to charge real Canadians....thier not part of the terrorist family... - How about his brothers, shit one a signed a contract for money and protection for some info...one got shot with his father, then returned to be treated in Canadian hospitals on OUR dime...the other is still at large Charges pending for wpns smuggling ETC....i wonder were he is....his sister who slams this country ever chance he gets....and was also wanted for the same crimes as the older brother...never been charged.... - Shit, the Canadian government even went out on a limb to bring them back into the country when his father was first arrested....No thats not embrassing, we are Canadians we shrug that shit off. My ass it is a legal stance it is a political stance...if it was a legal stance the full weight should have been applied not just bits and pieces.

This entire Omar thing is an embrassment to our entire country, to all those that died that day including the almost 30 Canadians when the towers came down, to all our soldiers who served in Afghan in fact to everyone concerned...including those Canadians advocating or shedding tears for small defenceless Omar...The same 15 year old who already had as much Military training as most 18 year old Canadian soldiers that served over there.... The same little terrorist that was filmed planting mines, and making IED's...The same 15 year old insurgent that bragged he was going to collect the bounty posted for every NATO soldier he would kill, The same kid who was involved in shooting 3 Afghani army pers ( in Cold blood)as they knocked at the front door of the complex that Omar was in......Nice kid you got there...nice cause your championing...He has not even begun repaying his debt for his deeds... Perhaps you should do some research on his little gang he was apart of, see first hand the pictures of what they have done in the name of Islam, read the deeds they have carried out on the local Afghan people and tell me you don't think that just over 20 dollars of your total tax bill was'nt worth trying to change or stop it.... Because some Canadians have paid alot more, they have paid with their lifes, willingly, of their own free will...there is other Canadians who have come back suffering from mental and physical conditions only to have to fight with veterns affairs for a max 250 k pay out which is extremily rare...want to shed tears or champion a cause there is one... Piss on Omar and his family, and tell me why he should not be sent back to Afghanisatn to face an Afghani court for the crimes he has commited in that country....Why he should not be tried for treason regardless of how it sounds to you, better yet don't tell, me tell those widows who's husbands are not coming back, tell those widows that have to deal not only with the there loss of a spouse but how little our government paid them out....

Why, because our government did not have the will(balls) to act, and instead wanted this to play out on the floor of the UN. and yet we as a Nation sent our Gen down there, infact the Military Advisor was an EX Canadian CDS so WHy we'll never know, except it was our government decission not to act... Another piont we could have sent 2000 fully equiped soldiers down without blinking an eye..Ya they would have been dismounted, and could have gathered up vehs along the way... the APC question well we could have moved them Via hercs, but it would have taken a shit load of trips...and been expensive...remember lives have a value on them , what the general public does not know is just how little they are really worth...