PolyNewbie

Absolutely true.

Understanding why buildings might fall down and designing to stop that is not the same as understanding what happens during an actual collapse. The idea is to design so that an actual collapse never even gets started. Its like how much to boat designers know about what happens to a ship while its sitting at the bottom of the sea or how much a nutrionist knows about treating someone who is sick because of lack of nutrition. I'll answer the rest of that post when I hear why you are so in favour of sticking up for Bush,Rumsfeld and Cheney. Do you want to work for them torturing children or killing innocent people or plundering the American economy ?

Fires were not hot enough - they only made the steel half strength.

I've known about the camps and mass executions since 1990. It wasn't supposed to happen until 2020 - 2040 but the neocons (Harper/Bush/Martin/Clinton) wanted to speed it up. People that I haven't seen in years know about all of this too. I wonder why some people don't.

They want to kill everyone and all past knowledge which is why they are going after religion as well. Members of the CFR according to Alex Jones have been calling for 100 % eradication of everyone over 12 years old. Then all the knowledge of the past is gone and they can reshape society in entirety to suit their needs. You have heard the term "useless eater" haven't you ? Thats what most people are to them. They do not need such a large population to do what they want because of technology. This is going on all over the world. All the countries have concentration camps except the ones we are at war with.

The buildings were static after the crashes then all of a sudden just collapsed in 9 or 10 seconds several minutes after the crashes - static conditions - no wind.

Look up Jeff King or Stephen Jones, they have audio files of their presentations. You must have listened to these already to be going around and saying these guys are not qualified - or at least that is what I assumed. The best overlal source of info on 911 is the free google video: 911Mysteries : part1 You would best go to Judy Wood for energy specifics on 911. She is a Phd in civil and materials so she is probably the best one in your eyes. I don't think that the fact that she studies dentures is anything - I mean these people don't study sky scrapers because they are comparitively simple and its been done. I doubt that there will be new science in skyscrapers, although there may be new methods of construction, I'm sure the math is already done on these. How can you arguye your point of view when you don't even know what the truthioes are saying ?

All you need to know is a bit of basic physics. I'm certainly no expert but I have done courses in mechanics and a half course on material science + one on strength of materials & structures. I know a lot more about this than I need to know to see that 911 was an inside job. You don't need a mathemetician to tell you that 2+2=4 and not 5. Hoffman's bio is around somwhere - I'm sure you can find it. Why don't you educate me and tell me where you think Jones & Hoffman are wrong ? You are hardly in a position to assail someones character - being an annonymous poster on the web ! I only argue facts.

Whyat gaping holes in it ? The 911 truth movement has proven that the towers came down as a result of energy added that was not in the potential energy of the standing buildings therefore bombs were used. I didn't see any gaping holes, I just see you attacking people when you cannot attack the arguement - typical neoliberal fascists sycophant strategy. Hoffman didn't just write a few articles in some rags. It was Scientific American & Nature and he has invented new ways of looking at material science. You keep insisting that civil engineers are the ones to consult for building collapses. I went to school and hung out with civils - I never heard of any of them studying a building collapse. In fact they build buildings so that the collapse never happens. You go to a nutritionist and excersise at the gym to prevent getting sick, but you don't go to the gym or the nutritionist when you are sick - you go to the doctor. don't miss Jack Bauer tonight. I think tonight is TV night isn't it ? You should grab yourself a book sometime. Look up the Hagelian Dialect.

(wrt building strength after collision) Actually this is verifiable. One needs to know that the buyilding outside was overbuilt by 20 and the core overbuilt by a factor of six. The most damage that could have been done by the planes is 1/4 strength. Seee papers on st911.org. The top part of the building falling through the air through 1 story of height would not have the impulsive force - even if it actually collapsed from fires and the airplane. Of corse we all know the buildings were designed for such impacts and to remain standing. So Judy Wood, professor of civil engineering & material science is wrong then ? You just need to look at the videos. All these things are said by the 911 scholars for truth, not me. I don't conjecture anything about 911, there is lots of science to draw from. So tell me, instead of asking questions about the wars, the pilliaging of the economy and the lies, you prefer to stick up for these people, why is that ?

No, its quite a bit more than that. That count only is for soldiers that die on the ground in Iraq. If they die inside helicopters or airplanes they don't get added to the official body count. There are also 100,000 mercenaries over there that are also being killed. There are also many people from poor countries who are being used as cannon fodder in return for US green cards if they survive. The ass that is being kicked is that of the American people. The war is just part of the grand plan to destroy the US economy.

Riverwind, even if you believe that Osama Bin Laden did 911 you should be asking about the 2.3 trillion dollars that went missing from the Pentagon on Sept 10/2001 announced by Rumsfeld on mainstream TV. You may just assume that all the investigators of this fiasco except one was killed on 911 is another 911 coincidence. You may assume that the one that wasn't killed being promoted a few steps up on the ladder like Von Romero is just another oddity, so, If you are not interested in all of this why don't you start asking questions about all the wars and the "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq or why the heroine trade has increased as a result of us being in Afganistan. Or you may ask, "why are we invading Iran ? " How many times are we going to be fooled by the Rumsfeld/Cheney "weapons of mass destruction" hoaxes ? They did it in the 70's too to keep the money flowing for the cold war. What about the electronic voting boxes ? Why would the governement spend all that money to implement electronic voting when there was always plenty of volunteers to count votes ? Don't they know that no one has ever built a computer that could not be hacked or was hacking their intention ? Why have Bechtel not been investigated for child sex slave trading ? Who are all those detention centers really being made for ? If they are for foreigners then why is the USA/Mexico border open ? If there is a war on terror how come the Mexico/USA borders are open ? Why is the US locking refugees in these concentration camps rather than turning them away and sending them back home ? Why are there so many people in the White House that are closely tied with NAZI philosophy and supporting NAZI's ? Isn't Henry Kissinger recognised as a war criminal in most parts of the world ? Why is a war criminal in the White House ? What is so special about the USA that allows them to set the Geneva convention aside ? Are you sure that you want to defend people who think its OK to torture children in front of their parents by manipulating their genitalia with a set of pliars ? What would it take for you to stop defending these kinds of people and making excuses for them ? Are you with the secret police are are you really just this stupid ? Are you going to watch Jack Bauer tonight ?

This is because we live in what is known as a soft dictatorship. The banks control governments who in turn control the media and the corporations but the government wants people to believe that they live in a democracy. In a hard dictatorship people like this would be executed or imprisoned. In a soft dictatorship they allow this talk as long as its manageable. Of course the illusion of democracy is being shattered by the war in Iraq and the number of people against it. People are also waking up about the banks and the control they have over society through new books and political parties dedicated to monetary reform such as The Monetary Reform party in the UK, the Canadian Action Party and Lyndon LaRouche in the USA. You keep infering that these guys are idiots, these guys are both well published Phd's in scientific fields. How do you expect people to believe you when you say that ? What have you published ? The government can get away with it as long as their are idiots that will defend their weak position rather than demand answers to important questions around 911. I guess you feel like you are identifying with the heroes on TV by doing this like Jack Bauer, but you are certainly irresponsible and foolish as a citizen. The TV set is the most effective weapon of mass destruction ever created because it attacks people from the inside, converting them to morons.

Right, just like the Chinese & Russians. It would of course be stupid to think it couldn't happen here. After all, the country is not run according to the will of voters. Its a dictatorship run by international bankers and to learn this you can read a variety of books or watch several different movies on the topic. These bankers are the same one that ran China & Russia during times of mass extermination of the populous. Of course you can't learn about this in school because they control education through the UN. The UN is essentially the bankers. Movies: The Money Masters (free on Google) Money As Debt (CD for purchase) The Capitalist Conspiracy (free on Google) Books: The Creature From Jekyll Island (Griffin) Fantopia (James Gibb Stuart) The Money Bomb (James Gib Stuart) Money (John Kenneth Galbraith) You cannot possibly understand how the world works without understanding the influence that bankers have on governments.

People wonder why more engineers and scientists don't speak out about 911. I suggest that the reason for this is the same reason why more economists don't speak out about the banks. We have the most corrupt monetary/banking system that has ever been concieved. See The Money Masters video (free on google to see why this is)

Physics isn't a democracy, neither is math. If everyone votes for 2+2=5, still 2+2=4.

The US troops will be surrounded and decimated in Bagdad- that is the reality of this war. Its a great way to kill off your domestic army and bring in foreign soldiers that will gladly point their guns at American citizens and load them into the detention centers.

Lots of intelligence people believe the building could be wired without anyone knowing. Anyone could figure out how to get the building wired for explosives without anyone knowing. I certainly could have. You think the video of the collpases was speeded up and that in reality the collapses took much longer ? The NIST report says 9 seconds and 10 seconds. You obviously think all the "mainstream scientists" are wrong too. Perhaps you should be the head of a physics dept in a university or direct a physics society and edit their papers. No one has stopped the facts from comming out. They have come out on European TV but not American TV. All the 911 truthie scientists say its easy to prove 911 was an inside job using simple physics. Of course you know much more about science than all these Phds. Even if they say they have proven it and you cannot discredit their work doesn't mean they are not crackpots. Proof is proof and the only thing that has been proven is that 911 was an inside job. The offiocial government report isn't proof of anything. Its actually quite a joke - I read the 9/11 commision report. It doesn't prove anything its just a big suggestion or hypothesis about what happened. I bet you will be watching Jack Bauer tonight eh ?

You can't really be this stupid. "If you want the truth watch TV". Yeah right. The news on TV has no resemblence to the truth. The war profiteers that own the media always tell you what is most profitable for them and thats more war.

Really ? How is that ? Do you have any examples ? Really ? Where ? They are not silent. You won't see what they say on TV in North America. You keep saying silence is some kind of testimony. Even engineers that speak up over here lose their jobs. Jones (Phd physics), the leader of the truth movement lost his, so how can you be convinced that all these engineers would speak up ?

example ???

You are an idiot. I said that (read carefully) EXPLOSIVES WERE RECORDED AT THE BASE OF THE BUILDING BEFORE THE COLLAPSE !!!! You cannot argue that fact with your twisted version of physics. I do not attempt to explain or hypothesise why this happened. The official hypothesis about why the buildings collapsed is not backed up by anything. Its just an opinion. The papers use to justify the official explanation make very erroneous assumptions and have all been shown to be seriously flawed by Hoffman. The conspirators view is based on indisputable evidence of bombs and very simple physics. Steven Jones and Jim Hoffman and many others are part of the acedemic community and the only people that are speaking up about 911 are saying it was an inside job using evidence & analysis. The "deafening silence" by the most of the community is likely explained by the silence of various investigative bodies wrt issues around 911 (ie stock put options on American & United). If you speak out, as we know from Stephen Jones & Kevin Ryan, you lose your job in mainstream - thats why people are not speaking up. I'm done with this. Its turned into a stupid physics debate, not a debate about 911.

I'm not giving any reason as to why the explosives were set off at the base of the building - only that they were and there is piles of evidence of that. It cannot be doubted. Maybe that was needed to make the collapse happen the way it did. You can see HUGE chunks being blown outwards and upwards...They are travelling faster (much faster) than the building collapse. The enrgy for this had to come from somewhere, if not the collapsing building then explosives, if the collapsing building then the building collapse would be slowed greatly. Its obvious from the size and speed of some of the parts. 200 ton beams were sticking out of nearby buildings like arrows. See 911 Mysteries: Part1: Demolition (free on google) ...whatever...I'll dig it up sometime today and post it. The only arguement in favour of the official version as to why the buildings collapsed is nothing more than hypothesis and it has little scientific backing. The version of events that shows controlled demolition uses evidence and physics papers to make the arguement.

The explosions did in fact occur at the base of the building before the collapse. Maybe this was just another coincidence The building is not a pubble of water and its a poor anology to assume a building made of steel and concrete behaves like water. If the building collapsed (any way, bombs or natural) under water there would be waves created in all directions. Furthermore the lever explanation doesn't work either because the bits of building flew upward too high and were projected with a greater velocity than the falling building - which is obvious from the video. The energy required for this would have impeded the collapse to a large extent if the energy came from the collapse because of the size of the chunks. Each floor supposedly collapsed at the same time all around its perimeter according to your "physics" so this idea of a lever couldn't really happen in the context of your ideas on how the buildings collapsed straight down at near freefall speed. The next time you bring up the topic of physics I will find the part of this thread where you accuse me of using non Newtonian physics when I corrected your free body diagram from an obvious error. You suggesting that I was not using Newtonian physics proves that you are a fool.

Explosions occured at the bottom of the towers minutes before they collapsed. Its on video (911eyewitness) as well as reported by several witnesses. 911 Mysteries shows the inside of the towers after this explosion before that cam crew gets out. Countless witnesses as well as video evidence shows exploions occured at ground level before the towers collapsed. wtc1 & wtc2 were demolished but not using convention techniques of implosion. Its likely the buildings were too tall and thin for this. For those of us that have eyes, we can watch the videos and see parts of the buildings blown upward which can only be explained by explosives. If you know so much about physics, why do I have to constantly correct you ? Do you want me to find the thread where I correct your thinking and you tell me that I am using non Newtonian physics ? I can find it and re post it here. It does prove that you are incompetent in the subject area.