PolyNewbie

Riverwind: If you provide a list of experts I want links to what they are saying. Picking names without providing any of their any explanations around 911 doesn't count. Anyone can go through a phone book and just list engineers. The NIST report doesn't count because we are talking specifically about the building collapses which are not investigated in NIST. I want to see a link to someone that supports your collapse theories.

Riverwind, Stop talking about physics - you discredit yourself. Start backing upo your arguements with something other than your own expertise and analysis.

Not true...who says so....you ? What are YOUR qualifications ? Where is your list of engineers supporting 911 ?

You cannot prove a negative like that. He doesn't mention any education: From wtc7.net: "Professional Background A software engineer by profession, I have developed new algorithms and applications in computational geometry used in both pure mathematics and polymer chemistry. My work in applying scientific visualization to minimal surface geometry was instrumental in the discovery of the first new examples of complete, finite, embedded minimal surfaces in over two hundred years. My visualizations have been featured in articles in Science News, Scientific American, Science Digest, and Nature. Working with a team of polymer scientists at the Massachusetts Institute for Technology, I discovered new three-dimensional morphologies for modeling block co-polymers, and co-authored papers in Science and Macromolecules. I have also dabbled in combustion engineering, co-authoring a patent for an internal combustion engine with improved thermal efficiency (US Patent #4,584,972). I created computer simulations to facilitate the development of this and other mechanical engineering inventions. My experience in software development has proved valuable to my investigation of 9/11/01 in more ways than just teaching me to think outside of the box and to approach problems with scientific rigor: I created the system used to publish the websites I developed. The system creates pages with hierarchical menus that allow navigation to most pages in the site in just two clicks. " Why don't you email him and teach him a few things about physics ? So who is supporting the official version ?

No mention of publishing in Scientific American or Nature or a number of other places as well. In fact no mention of education. He regularly publishes in physics journals - 25 so far. See his wiki definition. Also from the page you linked:"He has published more than 100 articles and reviews and 20 books in the philosophy of science" This analysis is not only wrong, its completely rediculous. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Don't tell me what is simple and what isn't because its obvious you have no scientific background at all. Once something starts rotating it needs a force to stop it. This is also irrelevant because we saw the top of the building rotate (tip over). Why don't you share some of your physics expertise with a physics newsgroup or do a paper showing how Jones,Wood & Hoffman are wrong (amoung others). So who are the engineers that support the official version ?

Ha Ha !! Prooof that the engineers supporting the official version are charlatans !!!

No !!! (again) It doesn't stop rotationg when the structure supporting the rotation fails - that is conservation of mementum. You really have no idea what you are talking about yet talk like you are an expert- this makes you look even more moronic. Why don't you do a paper discrediting 911 conspiracy theories ? Get it peer reviewed. You would be the first ! Really, why are you wasting your time talking to us ? Explain why buildings collapse through the path of most resistance instead of the least resistance. List the engineers that support the official version.

All engineering is applied physics ! Fetzer is a theoretical physicist, well published too. All Phd's are philosophers.

You are an idiot. He has a Phd in computer graphics. He used computer graphics to interpret and solve math problems to do with molecular physics & shapes and has published in a lot of prestigious places - especially for his age.

Heat required to liqify metal would not be explained by this. Heat required to fuse concrete and metal would not be explained by this. The sulfidization of beams is evidence that explosives were used. The cut beams at the bottom of the towers is indicative of explosives. The melted masses of concrete and metal is evidence of explosives. The fused metal and concrete is evidence of exploives. A beam bent into an ohmega shape with no stress fractures is evidence of high heat explosives. See 911 Mysteries Part1: Demolition People like Judy Wood (Phd in civil & materials), Jim Hoffman (well published MIT mathematician), Stephen Jones + many others say there is a huge energy deficit that can only be explained by explosives being used. I guess these people should be listening to you. There is not much support for the official version - only enough to create a report.

Your basic analysis was too frought with errors. You have only illustrated your own incompetence in basic physics, nothing more. Its not natural for buildings to collapse into their own footprints at near freefall speed. A building collapsing into its own footprint being natural would mean that things naturally fall through the path of most resistance rather than least resistance. Two buildings were hit by planes, three collapsed, wtc7 collapse has all the characteristics of a controlled demolition and no building has ever collapsed like this without CD. There are clearly visible explosions in wtc1 & wtc2 during the collapse. Even FEMA siad the official version of the wtc7 collapse had a very low probability. Its a stand down order (you got me again). People in the Pentagon have testified in congressional hearings that Cheney repeatedy gave a stand down order for defences of the White House / Pentagon area during the attacks, yet key people from the White House were moved to safer locations. You are a sharp guy jbg, no wonder you are a lawyer giving arguement like this. As explained there is a mass of fused concrete and steel called the "meteor", there is another slab of steel that was formed by many pieces melting togather. FEMA reports evidence of sulfidization of beams that can only be explained by CD charges. Multiple bent beams that could only be bent that way from explosions. Thankfully the Rockefeller Democrats are there to save us from the Rockefeller Republicans. Its illegal to remove evidence from the scene of an accident before investigating. No need to question anything. Just because gov has lied about the war in Iraq and mysteriously lost 3 trillion dollars and is filled with war profiteers doesn't mean we shouldn't just close our eyes and trust them. Are you a machiavellian jbg ? crash site spread over 8 square miles, Rumsfeld admitting that the plane was shot down by accident. Nothing to worry about. No investigation by FAA at 8 square mile crash site - first accident in history not investigated by FAA. Nothing unusual here. Automotive industry falling apart, currency supply soon doubling again after doubling once between 2001 & around 2004. Colleges and Universities stepping up programs in law enforcement & security. Police state comming into view- cameras being installed, constitution being dismantled, real estate going down, 400 trillion in derivative markets. The economic indicators keep rising because of a rising currency supply, not rising productivity. Of course you know that society is esentially run by central bankers and their tax free think tanks, focus groups and tax free foundations. The large number of macheviallians graduating university is by no accident. The bankers want to implement their new world order. BS all you want but I know that you know this. Did you see that on TV ? Did you read "Clash Of Civilizations" ? Did you see Brezinsky on CNN the other night talking about Iraq. He mentions "nationalism" and how it applys to Iraq and its overthrow - they cut him right off. So these Muslims are going to attack us then ? How ? Beach invasion, bombing ? Are they going to take us over through the Muslim owned media ?

Rules of neoliberal fascist sycophants for arguing on discussion groups: (1) Avoid facts (2) Dismiss facts as meaningless when they cannot be avoided (ex: testimony of Cheney giving stand down order) (3) Discredit experts who agree with facts as possibly delusional even when their expertise shows them to be at the very top of their profession. (4) Label someone as an anti semite when you can't win an arguement (5) Label someone an antisemite when they talk about banks & the financial oligarchy. Go along with the "neocon" label because its missleading and therefore useful.

Riverwind, how about getting back to the facts. How do you explain the following ? (1) 3 buildings collapseing straight down at near freefall speed. (forget this one, I know you say that would naturally happen) (2) Cheneys stand down orders (3) Evidence at base of towers after collapse- melted metal and concrete mixed togather in the "meteor" (4) Incomplete & delayed investigation (guilty behaviour) (5) Unusual destruction of evidence (6) Key people involved in US government being Machevellians/Straussians, of which Carl Schmitt was as well. This philosophy says that its OK to lie to the public, the public are there to serve the needs of the oligarchy and as Kissinger described the army in Vietnam - "...just a bunch of dumb animals". The guys in US government are actually NAZI's because they follow the same philosophers as NAZI's. The are direct philosophical ties to the NAZI's as well as blood/financial (Bushes) (7) Who is getting rich off the wars started by 911 ? (8) why do you think Osama did it ? - Lets hear some of your evidence !

Actually the "the overwhelming number of structural and civil engineering experts" simply will not discuss 911. Its very hard for a professional to speak against the establishment, I won't discuss why but if you were any where near as qualified as you pretend to be you would already know that. Watch JBG, see how much he wants to talk about facts around 911. He belongs to a secret society just like engineers.

I agree with that. I worked from initial times not complete times and accounted for uncertantly, thank you for your expert advice once again. You must have got the 15 seconds from Hoffmans site. Have you offered Hoffman any of your advice ?

Actually I am quite good at it. I've been reviewed in many magazines and regularly get complimented by Phd people from around the world. I run on word of mouth. Plus I invent new stuff. I was even on wiki at one time but emailed them to take it off. As far as errors in observation, I am familiar with those and have accounted. Thanks for your "expert" advice though.

PSE Canadian Blue: I don't read your posts. Most people don't read cut & paste jobs- especially long cut & paste jobs.

I think you are demonstrating elementary thought here and that 911 truthers have considered all this and decided that (1) There is plenty of evidence of conspiracy (2) Too many coincidences. (3) The points often raised are relevant - in fact Bowman makes a statement to this on his site that I have already linked on this thread. Perhaps you are right, all these people in the truth movement like Jones, Bowman,Hoffman, Von Beulow, Wood, etc should be listening to you. Just because they are from the top of intelligence, engineering and physics doesn't mean anything. We have been through this before, apparently you still consider yourself as an authority on these matters. You should argue points instead of using your own "expertise" to show 911 truth is nonsense. You trumping around your own expertise sounds rediculous.

I accounted for that. BTW my business is measurement.

There is always uncertainty to any arguement stating that 911 was an inside job, but there are so many ways of showing this with very high certainty that it is likely to be true. Here are some (1) 3 buildings collapseing straight down at near freefall speed. (2) Cheneys stad down orders (3) Evidence at base of towers after collapse (4) Incomplete & delayed investigation (guilty behaviour) (5) Unusual destruction of evidence (6) Key people involved in US government being Machevellians/Straussians, of which Carl Schmitt was as well. This philosophy says that its OK to lie to the public, the public are there to serve the needs of the oligarchy and as Kissinger described the army in Vietnam - "...just a bunch of dumb animals". The guys in US government are actually NAZI's because they follow the same philosophers as NAZI's. The are direct philosophical ties to the NAZI's as well as blood/financial (Bushes) (7) Suspicious crash in Pennyslivania (8) Suspicious crash in Pentagon (9) Past behaviour, Oklahoma, wtc93, Kennedy, Iraq war, Haiti war, Afgan war. (10) Clear & deliberate destructiuon of US economy underway. (11) Who is getting rich off the wars started by 911 ? Now, tell me, why do you think Osama did it ?

I just love how you are able to pick apart my arguements with such precision. You must be a highly paid lawyer to be able to do that. If something isn't explosive than it can't explode. But maybe those massive explosions are caused by electrical short circuits

The terrists found alive after 911 are the same terrorists still pictured in the most wanted list. Since their faces are the same the ID arguement is irrelevant unless people that looked just like them stole their ID. Many mainstream sources have reported the same guys as in the FBI pictures have been found alive afterwards. This is not surprising, given the nature of the 911 evidence in every other aspect of 911- its always that rediculous. Any way you look at it the official story falls apart. 911 was a psyc op on the American people to pit the classes that think they will benefit from 911 vs the classes that think they will be drafted. Then there is the terminally stupid that will believe the 911 story even though the ones supporting it are either war criminals, intellectuals that study how to propogate propoganada, or people that have just been paid off - such as demolition experts that change their initial opinions from "absolutely CD" to supporting the official version and get big promotions and grants. As in Oklahoma, Corely and his gang were charged with creating an official investigation. In both cases the FAA and firemarshall were prevented from investigating and in both cases the evidence overwhelmingly points to explosives planted in the building. In Oklahoma some didn't go off and police, fire and mainstream media reports show additional bombs were in the building that didn't go off. In both cases you have experts saying it was CD. What possible motive could these people have in proving CD ? What you don't realize is that the CFR is now calling for 100 % eradication internally by its members for people over 12 years old (Alex Jones on air). The New World Order isn't going to need lawyers. We have hundreds of concentration camps . Jones has been talking about the camps this week quite a bit. Alex Jones welcomes any attempts to discredit him on air. You can call his show and your call will not be screened- if you say you dissagree with him you get to the front of the line. I invite any of you to call in and make Jones look like a fool - live and on air with millions of listeners from his web site alone, then there is the radio syndication which gives millions of other listeners.

If you read the quality of debate that I get from CanadianBlue its hard to deny that I have convinced him. All he can do is try and label me an anti semite or a terrorist.

Thermate can be made to explode if the particles are small enough. I don't think it was only thermate that was used. The fact that evidence of thermate was found along with perfectly cut beams (as in a CD) shows that it was sued and this is another way of showing that 911 was an inside job. Nothing conventional explained the melted mass of concrete and metal mixed togather - thermate doesn't explain that and it doesn't explain a lot of other very strange physical evidence - such as the complete dissapearance of the heavy steel core. No great big pile of twisted metal after the accidents - cars far away exploding from heat radiated, radiation in concrete dust, etc. Nope. I did a calculation and assumes the concrete got converted into little spheres that were max size for pyrocrastic flow. The energy required to do this with concrete would add about two seconds to the collapse time. These are very generous assumptions based on what actually happened.

Another faulty analysis. You would put the TNT in places to critically damage certain points to cause an orderly and expedient collapse. It was thermate that was used not dynamite. The pulverization of concrete would add enough time to the collapse as to exceed an expectation uncertainty of measurement of collapse time. Also nukes were developed by the US in the 50's with the purpose of building demolition in mind so its entirely likely that they were used. There is a lot of physical evidence elluding to nukes being used with the thermate - things like balls of mixed and melted concrete and steel (the "meteor" in 911 Mysteries) and another big slab of melted steel. The physical evidence is very strange and sure doesn't look like pancaking was the cause.. We haven't discussed the physical evidence resulting from the attacks. The evidence is very strange and doesn't suggest a mechanical collapse or overheating due to fires. The physical evidence is stranger that anything else about 911. The only "quackery" is the NIST report and the official version of 911 which the physical evidence alone shows is all a lie. You do not need a mathemetician to confirm that 2+2 doesn't equal 5.