blackbird

There are many different gods believed by hundreds or thousands of different religions in the world. Most of those religions do not believe in or have the Christian bible and do not believe in Jesus Christ as God. The fact is Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and after the resurrection was seen by many people. The eyewitnesses include the apostles and prophets who wrote the New Testament which includes the account of what they saw. Some died for what they saw and believed. Jesus Christ was a firm believer in the Holy Scriptures, that is, the Bible. He claimed to be God and proved it by being raised from the dead. He also proved it by the accounts in the four gospels of the miracles which he performed while on earth. These are eye witness accounts. That being the case, we must accept the Bible as being inspired by God. "16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. " 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV The question is then, are you willing to accept the Bible as an objective standard?

That might be the case in some countries. This wikipedia article says they are not in decline in Africa or Latin America. The numbers may be more stable in developing countries. It says the numbers are in decline in industrialized countries such as the western democracies for some reason. However it says there are between 2 and 3 billion nominal Christians in the world, which is a huge number. All of that doesn't have any relevance at all to the truth of the Bible or Biblical Christianity. Biblical Christianity is not a popularity contest. Not sure what your point is here. Bible believing Christians are a relatively small number out of the huge population of nominal Christians in the world. The world is a fallen, corrupt place with much crime and corruption. That has nothing to do with the truth of the Bible. The world is full of false religions and conflicts of various kinds. Again, what does that prove? I am not sure why you mention it. God or Biblical Christianity is not an attempt to build a utopia on this present earth and the Bible says nothing about the whole world converting to Christianity. That is obviously not happening. That might be true, but Biblical Christianity has nothing to do with population control. There are countless different religions in the world. All of them are false except Biblical Christianity. You would have to learn something about the Bible and Christianity to understand what it is about. I don't recall anything about population control in the years I have been involved.

I don't know if numbers are dwindling or not. I have no way of knowing. Either way, it does not change the facts. The Bible says many are called; few are chosen. That is just a fact of life. When considering spiritual (Biblical) matters, if you base your beliefs on the number of people in the world who follow it, that is a fatal mistake. Most of the world could be on the road to hell. Remember there is a verse about this: "13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13 KJV Not the same at all. The justice system is built on eye witness accounts of events. Often eye witnesses are the only source verifying the truth of something. If you dismiss that, what do you have? Nothing. Practically all historical events recorded in history depend on the eye witnesses who lived at the time and saw what happened. There is no other way to know the actual details. Of course this is not the same as somebody simply saying trust me to sell you something. That is like comparing apples with oranges. Not the same at all.

Do you believe God has revealed his will and revelation to mankind? If not, who decides what is right and what is wrong? If God has revealed himself, what does he say about human life?

Did you read what I posted just a few minutes ago? The resurrection of Jesus Christ means the Bible is completely relevant. But it is up to you to consider it. Nobody can force anyone to read it or believe it. God does not force anyone to believe in him. The Bible doesn't try to prove the existence of God. It assumes he is. That is interesting. I understand what you are saying. I grew up as a Catholic until the Lord saved me through the preaching of the gospel over the radio one evening. Roman Catholicism is another story. I don't think we should spend a lot of time discussing Catholicism at this point. I will say I understand what you are saying about divorce. I will be honest with you. I know a fair amount about the RC church and their position against divorce. That is a huge error. I agree with you divorce is absolutely necessary in many cases and it is a form of abuse to tell people they cannot get a divorce. Domestic abuse is rampant and many people are suffering from abuse. Sometimes divorce is the only way out of an abusive situation. We can agree on that. Now here is my point on this. The Bible does not teach divorce is wrong in all circumstances. I have studied this subject. The problem is the RC church does not follow the Bible on this subject. They make up their own doctrines with church councils, etc. Many people in the world blame religion or the Bible for the evils in the world, but the problem is ironically the opposite. The problems often are caused because people do not understand or rightly interpret the Bible. Many religious folks reject what the Bible says and think they know better. This is the case with the RCC. But that is another big subject. The point is Jesus Christ was seen by many eye witnesses after his resurrection. He recognized Holy Scripture as coming from God. So did the prophets. So why men reject that and make up their own doctrines is hard to fathom.

The term "antiquated book" is problematic for a number of reasons. I don't know if we have the ability to really come to some understanding on these subjects on a forum such as this. We can try, but it is difficult. The word antiquated means: outmoded or discredited by reason of age : old and no longer useful, popular, or accepted unquote I assume that is the definition you are using. However, the Bible is unlike any other book. It is more than a book. Hundreds of millions of people have obtained copies of it over the centuries since the printing press was invented five hundred or so years ago. The Bible was written over a period of 1,500 years beginning about 1,200 B.C. and completed about 200 A.D. Because there was no printing press prior to the 1,500s and it had to be copied by hand, not everyone had it. But they did hear it read or taught by people who had copies. The Jewish prophets wrote the Old Testament over a period of a thousand years or more and completed it about 400 B.C. The New Testament was written by the several of the Apostles and prophets in the first century after Christ. The four gospels are directly about Jesus Christ's life on earth and his death and resurrection. There were many eye witnesses who actually saw Jesus Christ after the resurrection took place. I would encourage you to consider this. If this is the case, then of course the written accounts of Jesus Christ, what he taught and who he is would be the most earth shattering events in the history of man. Now if he was not resurrected, then of course you would be correct in saying it was an "antiquated" or useless book. This would seem to be the crux of the matter. The resurrection of Jesus Christ would seem to be the central issue here. According to the Bible, beginning way back in Genesis, mankind rebelled against God and destroyed his relationship with God. But God in his mercy sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to redeem lost man (and woman of course). Many of the apostles died as martyrs for their faith or belief that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and that he is really who he said he is, God or the Son of God in the flesh. People don't go out and tell about something and be willing to die for it if it were fiction. That just doesn't make sense. It is recorded that they saw Jesus Christ with their own eyes and heard him after the resurrection. I would think that is something to consider. That fact alone would really be a good test of whether or not the Bible is an "antiquated book" or not.

That is a good point. I am not alone in thinking there must be a law that legalized abortion, but perhaps that is not exactly the correct way of looking at it. Perhaps I should have said there is no law against it. However, law or no law, abortion is widespread and if I am correct it is not illegal. There is no law against it. However, when I say it is wrong and evil, I am referring to God's law or the Bible. I am not speaking about earthly manmade laws or lack of them. God's law or written revelation is higher than man's laws. I hope you see the difference. Man is not the final judge of what is right or wrong. Some people believe man is the final judge. But this is a mistake. It is called secular humanism.

Actually I just googled youtube fertilization and watched a five minute video on the process. Give it a try and see what you think. I gave a link below. Only a few minutes long. It is a human being at the moment of conception even though not developed fully. Developing into an adult is long process that begins at conception. If you want to call the pre-born baby a fetus that's ok too. It doesn't change the fact it is a human being, just at a different stage than a baby out of the womb or a 3 yr old, 10 yr old, teenager of 18, and then 24 yrs of age. There are stages to development. It all begins at fertilization or conception. Bing Videos

No. When the sperm enters the egg and unites with it, a new human is formed with the characteristics of the new baby such as gender, hair colour, and a hundred other things. It is a new human being at that moment of conception. If you google "youtube fertilization" you can watch any of a number of short videos that show how this happens. New life is formed in the process of fertilization of conception.

Thanks for the detailed reply. You make many good points. I will have to digest them and read it over again carefully. I will reply at least to some of it. There is a lot there to digest. I need time to study it.

I can understand where you're coming from. This is the crux of the matter. What you're saying does not surprise me because you have clearly pointed out the reason why you feel the way you do. So there is no point in us debating or more accurately arguing over the things we have. The central issue remains and is one we should try to understand each other better and that is on the issue of what part does God play in all this and what does his written revelation have to do with it. If you say the Bible means nothing, then we must really examine the reasons why you believe that. We should both have an open mind and try to understand each other better and where we as individuals are coming from. The only hope for us in this world is in understanding certain crucial things. I hope you will show an open mind and maybe as time goes on we will be able to understand each other better. We achieve nothing by just arguing the same old points back and forth over and over. I hope you will be willing to elevate the discussion to a better path. I could probably learn a lot myself if we did. Cheers.

Yes, I believe that is correct. However, going by a majority, particularly the most vocal ones, does not mean the government is leading in an honourable or righteous way. Perhaps they are doing it for votes if the majority favour something. This is not leadership in a good way. This is following the masses. This is why Canada is a heathen country. Our leaders have cheapened the value of human life. That is why we have assisted suicide and that has been expanding ever since it was brought in. Life is not sacred any more. Canadians should fear too because this could also affect millions of citizens. Canada has rejected the sanctity of human life. The public health care system is already being affected. It is failing in many ways and the ideology of many politicians might be "oh well, we only have so much money to put into health care and if a few thousand die because of lack of care, so what? We the political leaders have done our part. Why get upset about it if government is already spending so many billion dollars for health care? We can't help everyone. We political leaders don't believe life is sacred. You get what we can afford. We already have assisted suicide and thousands of abortions, so what's the big deal about the health care system? That's the end of it.

As a matter of principle, something immoral and evil such as killing babies, should not be legal That sends a very bad message. Vast numbers of people are using abortion for birth control. Government should outlaw it. At the same time, the government should make it as easy as possible to put the baby up for adoption. Government simply cannot control or even think they can control every thing that people do in society.

You entirely miss the point. I realize the law enables a pregnant women to get an abortion. My point is the law is wrong and evil. The discussion is not whether she can go ahead and have an abortion. Obviously under the law she can. My point is that it is the wrong decision. It is contrary to God's inspired word. There should be no such thing going on. I realize I have no say other than what I post on this forum. I post what I believe to be the Biblical truth. That is the right path to follow. Anyone can ignore that and do their own thing. But there are consequences such as killing an innocent baby to begin with. Then the woman may have to live with the guilt of that the rest of her life. That may be a painful thing for some women. There is also the gospel in the New Testament. She can become a Christian and through God's mercy and grace, obtain forgiveness. The word "rights" does not necessarily cover everything moral and righteous as a country's laws may be immoral as Canada's are. Therefore some things are left to the individual to understand and do or not do. Just because one has the right to do something under the law doesn't mean it is the moral or righteous thing to do. Thinking that because the law allows something, doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. That idea is a deadly interpretation of the law. She may become a Christian and find forgiveness through the grace of God.

I am not getting into playing a game of comparing what is going on in the world. Just letting you know what God says in the Holy Scriptures. If a mother doesn't want a baby, she should give it up for adoption. There are lots of people who can't have children and looking to adopt a child. Adoption is very common.

Not only abortion as I explained. "Thou shalt not kill" is part of the ten commandments which Moses received from God.

Human life is human life and protecting it is not negotiable. Of course it applies to all human life, but there are exceptions for self defence or authorities maintaining law and order such a police and armed forces acting in defence of a country. God spoke through Moses and other prophets in Holy Scripture.

Human life begins at conception. Is there some magic that makes it become a human at some particular time later?

Yet disregarding a rape victim. Nonsense. You can't undo a rape that has already happened by murdering the baby. You have no right to do that. "Thou shalt not kill". Exodus ch20 Aren't you the OP? The whole point is to prove that the government's laws or policies allowing abortion are depraved and evil. That has been shown. The fact you claim it is legal is therefore irrelevant to the subject. Data and medical research > God. God is sovereign over the whole universe, completely righteous, and there is a judgment day coming. Nobody can fight against God and expect to win. Many are called, but few are chosen. It would be better to lose one's limbs or even be murdered as a pre-born baby in an abortion than to go into hell for eternity. "9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: " 2 Peter 2:9 KJV

It is an unfortunate situation, but it would still not justify murdering a baby. It is a human's life we are talking about. Rape is a serious crime and should have serious consequences. There certainly is a legal one. The whole point of the OP is that government laws and policies enabling abortion are wicked or evil. Legality does not equate to what is right in God's sight in this subject. Therefore saying it is legal is no argument.

Nonsense!

Our country is divided and unity is impossible when there is so much evil. Many people hold some kind of secular humanist belief systems which are contrary to our historic Judeo-Christian beliefs. This conflict of beliefs is unlikely to disappear anytime soon.

I'm not sure what your point is. A military is necessary to deal with the threats in the world. Sometimes people are killed in military action in defence against evil aggressors and terrorists. We live in an evil wicked world.

How is someone with no morals and is totally depraved able to comment on what is right and wrong?