Israel appeasement

[Borg]

I sense that Borg considers the middle east in it's present state withing his field of investment..so Borg - as far as your life is concerned. You are prospering in this mayhem. Maintaining the status quo at present is selfish my friend. Ever considered a fair playing field where people do not have to die so some do not have to work for a living?

Jealousy does not become you.

With risk comes reward.

Willing to put your life on the line? The rewards are great.

To sit at home, safe and smug in your chair is far, far different than going out to grasp what is there.

In truth the reward is no where near as great as the rush it brings.

Sit at home if you will - I will continue to adventure.

I will also continue to pay the taxes that allow you to live quite well my friend.

Have a good one.

Borg

[jbg]

For the last 60 years, Israel has always found somebody who has been willing to appease it. Haper has been the latest to buy into this nonsense. Where has that got us?

Is it not time to stop the policy of appeasement, and look at a more balanced solution to the Middle East mess?

You've hit the nail on the point, as is @ss-backwards. The West has been imagining, for the longest time, that it has a negotiating partner in the Middle East that wants peace, and wants a common-sense resolution of a boundary dispute wtih Israel. This is hardly the case.

The Arabs surroundig Israel were the ones who rejected a partition in 1948. Between 1948 and 1967 there was no movement for a "Palestinian state". The argument that indigenous Palestinian rights had been trammeled came up only after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza after losiing a series of wars that they started or provoked to Israel. The creation of an imaginary "Palestinian" people was part and parcel of the new strategy of trying to slice and dice Israel, to make it indefensible.

The relationship with Israel is not "appeasement" since Israel is not threatening the US's or Canada's safety. Israel is an ally of both countries, perhaps the only reliable forward position the West has in the Middle East, after abandoning the other colonies and bases.

Lovely weather we're having...

And a full moon too?

[DogOnPorch]

You've hit the nail on the point, as is @ss-backwards. The West has been imagining, for the longest time, that it has a negotiating partner in the Middle East that wants peace, and wants a common-sense resolution of a boundary dispute wtih Israel. This is hardly the case.

The Arabs surroundig Israel were the ones who rejected a partition in 1948. Between 1948 and 1967 there was no movement for a "Palestinian state". The argument that indigenous Palestinian rights had been trammeled came up only after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza after losiing a series of wars that they started or provoked to Israel. The creation of an imaginary "Palestinian" people was part and parcel of the new strategy of trying to slice and dice Israel, to make it indefensible.

The relationship with Israel is not "appeasement" since Israel is not threatening the US's or Canada's safety. Israel is an ally of both countries, perhaps the only reliable forward position the West has in the Middle East, after abandoning the other colonies and bases.

And a full moon too?

Agreement. From '48 to '67 the West Bank and Gaza were occupied by the Jordainians and Egyptians respectfully...this is before massing for attack on Israel in early June '67. Zero peep re: Palestine during that period. Nada...zip...nil. But after the Arab's plan for extermination of Israel failed...different story. Suddenly, it was 'PLO city'. Then there was Yom Kippur...well, I know you know the rest, jbg.

Topaz: You know if Israel ever was at peace would they still get the millions from the US they get every year for military weapons? I think not, so if they want the money, they just have to keep fighting. The US is the largest seller of military weapons why would they want peace? The US should stay out of the Middle-East and let those countries there bring either peace or war to it. The more they try to bring peace the more war breaks out after.

Where do you suppose the Arabs get their weapons? The weapon fairy?

HisSelf: I see. So if a platoon of soldiers were to show up at your house - the house you had bought, made payments on, and after many years of monthly payments, finally owned outright - and told you that you had 15 minutes to leave or get bulldozed into the rubble, those would be your values?

Right after you and your pals fire a bunch of rockets at me, you could call me "Mr Bulldozer". Honk, honk, Rachel Corrie. I'll be at the non-Hamas mined beach if you need me.

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I'm a proud member of the rabble.

---Benjamin Netanyahu

[Oleg Bach]

Agreement. From '48 to '67 the West Bank and Gaza were occupied by the Jordainians and Egyptians respectfully...this is before massing for attack on Israel in early June '67. Zero peep re: Palestine during that period. Nada...zip...nil. But after the Arab's plan for extermination of Israel failed...different story. Suddenly, it was 'PLO city'. Then there was Yom Kippur...well, I know you know the rest, jbg.

Where do you suppose the Arabs get their weapons? The weapon fairy?

Right after you and your pals fire a bunch of rockets at me, you could call me "Mr Bulldozer". Honk, honk, Rachel Corrie. I'll be at the non-Hamas mined beach if you need me.

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I'm a proud member of the rabble.

---Benjamin Netanyahu

Israel has never been appeased. To please and appease you must have a subject that is capable of achieving a level of statisfaction. They are never satisfied so there is no appeasing them. The average citizen in Israel is so conditioned and so paranoid that they are dellusional for the most part. For instance..In Toronto..in poor violent black communities - the grandmothers program their kids to hate whites and that they are the enemy and only to be made friends with when you can make use of them to advance yourself..they dispose of them. This intergenerational conditioning is what has destroyed Israel and created lunitics and reactionaries who live in the past...get over it..There have been hundreds of holocausts of peoples - and hundreds of genocides..what makes them so damn special? Go and speak to an elder Ukrainian..about the holocausting of millions of Christians ...and Jews...Israel does not deserve special privledge..give special privledge to all abused groups including the ones in Africa..grant privledge to all those abuse..or grant none...I think Israel should have it's whinning licence revoked!

[DogOnPorch]

Israel has never been appeased. To please and appease you must have a subject that is capable of achieving a level of statisfaction. They are never satisfied so there is no appeasing them. The average citizen in Israel is so conditioned and so paranoid that they are dellusional for the most part. For instance..In Toronto..in poor violent black communities - the grandmothers program their kids to hate whites and that they are the enemy and only to be made friends with when you can make use of them to advance yourself..they dispose of them. This intergenerational conditioning is what has destroyed Israel and created lunitics and reactionaries who live in the past...get over it..There have been hundreds of holocausts of peoples - and hundreds of genocides..what makes them so damn special? Go and speak to an elder Ukrainian..about the holocausting of millions of Christians ...and Jews...Israel does not deserve special privledge..give special privledge to all abused groups including the ones in Africa..grant privledge to all those abuse..or grant none...I think Israel should have it's whinning licence revoked!

Oleg...since you're quoting me, what does all that have to do with my post? Or dare I ask?

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I'm not a Roman mum, I'm a kike, a yid, a heebie, a hook-nose, I'm kosher mum, I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, and proud of it!

---Monty Python: Life of Brian

Edited May 18, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[eyeball]

I prefer a balanced approach, which Canada followed until Harper got elected. Harper is engaging in Israel appeasement. Israel appeasement is not going to bring peace to the Middle East.

I could go with that but I still think we should have an official act that clearly declares our neutrality and that outlaws any military involvement whatsoever including everything from stock investments in military corporations to arms sales to intervention.

Anything less is an appeasment to the North American military-industrial complex that thrives off this conflict.

Edited May 18, 2008 by eyeball

[M.Dancer]

Anything less is an appeasment to the North American military-industrial complex that thrives off this conflict.

That doesn't expalin the origin of the arab weapons ....who by far have more weapons than Israel on a scale of 10 to 1.

I think your anti civiliazation bias gets in the way of you ever seeing reality.

[DogOnPorch]

That doesn't expalin the origin of the arab weapons ....who by far have more weapons than Israel on a scale of 10 to 1.

I think your anti civiliazation bias gets in the way of you ever seeing reality.

I also find this an interesting point that none of the pro-Arab types never seem to be able to wrap their brains around. As I mentioned...'the weapon fairy' must arrive late at night bringing new MiGs, SAMs and AK-47s.

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I believe that Palestine is an occupied land from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, and this is the right of the entire Palestinian people, this land.

---Hassan Nasrallah

[Oleg Bach]

I also find this an interesting point that none of the pro-Arab types never seem to be able to wrap their brains around. As I mentioned...'the weapon fairy' must arrive late at night bringing new MiGs, SAMs and AK-47s.

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I believe that Palestine is an occupied land from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, and this is the right of the entire Palestinian people, this land.

---Hassan Nasrallah

Let you tell you a story about weapons dealers...My sister introduced me to an old guy long dead now that was the Canadian connection for the old Iran Contra deal...I was over at his house...he was a tough scarey guy....I said to him "Earnie those gold plated taps and Rolls in the driveway are a disgrace..it's all blood money and you are a loser..well this Canadian drunkard perked up and said..."Ronald Ragan pardoned me" - stupid rationale in the fact that he is not American.

Anyway he supplied arms to Iran during the Iraq Iran conflict where a million people died....The old goat had the nerve to say to me..."I saved lives!" - I asked how so? He said..."I armed both sides" - so if you wonder who is the weapons fairy ...don't fret..the same guys that sell weapons to Israel are the same son's of bitches that sell them to hostile Arab nations...mystery solved!

So you might wonder what kind of end this old arms dealer met...well...he drank himself into a stupor every day....then one day he quit drinking..I dropped by and he was sitting with a dusty whiskey bottle on his couch that resembled a dogs bed. He looked like Howard Hughes before he died..his hair was long..his fingernails were long as a hawks...and he had given up. He went up to bed and slowly died..His kids - did not notice that the old man was dead until the smell arouse...they were to busy smoking crack and rapping young woman...So this is the end of a creep..who was from what I heard later a cocaine king pin as well as an arms dealer..funny - the dope destroyed his family - they are all now in poverty and confusion.

[DogOnPorch]

...don't fret..the same guys that sell weapons to Israel are the same son's of bitches that sell them to hostile Arab nations...mystery solved!

No it isn't. It is places like Pakistan, North Korea, Red China and Russia...to name a few. The old Soviet Union footed the Arab's bill for both the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War.

Israel made do with surplus US equipment (that they bought) and some top of the line French aircraft like the Mirage. As mentioned in other threads more than once and promptly ignored by folks like you, Israel's main battle tank in both those wars was the tried and true M-4 Sherman from WW2 while the Arabs had (and lost) the best weapons the Warsaw Pact could offer...T-55s, T-62s, MiG-21s, SAM-2s, SA-7s, BMPs, etc...all for free. Had the Arabs won, we wouldn't be having this thread right now as the Israelis would have all been butchered long ago.

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No Arab ruler will consider the peace process seriously so long as he is able to toy with the idea of achieving more by the way of violence.

---Yitzhak Rabin

[Oleg Bach]

No it isn't. It is places like Pakistan, North Korea, Red China and Russia...to name a few. The old Soviet Union footed the Arab's bill for both the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War.

Israel made do with surplus US equipment (that they bought) and some top of the line French aircraft like the Mirage. As mentioned in other threads more than once and promptly ignored by folks like you, Israel's main battle tank in both those wars was the tried and true M-4 Sherman from WW2 while the Arabs had (and lost) the best weapons the Warsaw Pact could offer...T-55s, T-62s, MiG-21s, SAM-2s, SA-7s, BMPs, etc...all for free. Had the Arabs won, we wouldn't be having this thread right now as the Israelis would have all been butchered long ago.

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No Arab ruler will consider the peace process seriously so long as he is able to toy with the idea of achieving more by the way of violence.

---Yitzhak Rabin

All the technical information you supplied does not change cold and brutal human nature. Sure you are right that these mentioned entities sell weapons..but if you actually believe that weapons dealers that sell to Israel would never sell to their enemies then you are a babe in the woods..weapons sales are right up there with the dope and oil trade. Money has no ethics. Yes Israel needed the weapons in that bygone era..BUT now the constant and addicting lucrativity of weapons sales is institutionalized..they can not stop...habitualism is a human trait..so is the justification of creating killing material dellusional.

[DogOnPorch]

All the technical information you supplied does not change cold and brutal human nature. Sure you are right that these mentioned entities sell weapons..but if you actually believe that weapons dealers that sell to Israel would never sell to their enemies then you are a babe in the woods..weapons sales are right up there with the dope and oil trade. Money has no ethics. Yes Israel needed the weapons in that bygone era..BUT now the constant and addicting lucrativity of weapons sales is institutionalized..they can not stop...habitualism is a human trait..so is the justification of creating killing material dellusional.

Fine...locate and point out for me some of these weapon purchaces.

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...bed goes up...bed goes down...bed goes up...bed goes down...

---Homer Simpson

[Oleg Bach]

Fine...locate and point out for me some of these weapon purchaces.

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...bed goes up...bed goes down...bed goes up...bed goes down...

---Homer Simpson

What do I look like a CISIS graduate in international crimminal affairs? You want me to do the research? You will have to pay me...I do not do favours for anyone without compensation - and making a point is not compensation enough..sorry - you do the work. You can afford it.

[HisSelf]

No it isn't. It is places like Pakistan, North Korea, Red China and Russia...to name a few. The old Soviet Union footed the Arab's bill for both the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War.

Israel made do with surplus US equipment (that they bought) and some top of the line French aircraft like the Mirage. As mentioned in other threads more than once and promptly ignored by folks like you, Israel's main battle tank in both those wars was the tried and true M-4 Sherman from WW2 while the Arabs had (and lost) the best weapons the Warsaw Pact could offer...T-55s, T-62s, MiG-21s, SAM-2s, SA-7s, BMPs, etc...all for free. Had the Arabs won, we wouldn't be having this thread right now as the Israelis would have all been butchered long ago.

THe problem with this is that you look at the conflict as some sort of technical military event. It was in fact a political event and military matters will always be secondary to the political goals that precipitate them, no matter who wins. This is a lesson that has somehow completely escaped anybody who tried subjugating Afghanistan, going right back to the British in the 1800s, Iran going back to Mossadeq, and the Jews going back to the days of the Egyptians.

Edited May 18, 2008 by HisSelf

[bush_cheney2004]

THe problem with this is that you look at the conflict as some sort of technical military event. It was in fact a political event and military matters will always be secondary to the political goals that precipitate them, no matter who wins.

Yea.....I'm sure that the Axis Powers felt the same way before and after WW2.

[DogOnPorch]

What do I look like a CISIS graduate in international crimminal affairs? You want me to do the research? You will have to pay me...I do not do favours for anyone without compensation - and making a point is not compensation enough..sorry - you do the work. You can afford it.

You claim Israel gets its weapons from the same source as the Arabs. I call BS. It is your job to prove me wrong. That's how we play the game...at least by the 'rules'. You can afford that.

The problem with this is that you look at the conflict as some sort of technical military event. It was in fact a political event and military matters will always be secondary to the political goals that precipitate them, no matter who wins.

lol...history for the most part is the study of human conflict. I'm aware of the causes of both wars, though. Pan Arabism...Naserism...Anti-Semitism/Zionism. The Arabs thought they had the jump on the Israelis twice...and lost both times. Even after a surprise attack. No driving the Jews into the sea...that'll have to wait for the next Arab-Israeli War.

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Brian: Excuse me. Are you the Judean People's Front?

Reg: F**k off! We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front...pfffft.

---Monty Python's Life of Brian

[jbg]

You claim Israel gets its weapons from the same source as the Arabs. I call BS. It is your job to prove me wrong. That's how we play the game...at least by the 'rules'. You can afford that.

lol...history for the most part is the study of human conflict. I'm aware of the causes of both wars, though. Pan Arabism...Naserism...Anti-Semitism/Zionism. The Arabs thought they had the jump on the Israelis twice...and lost both times. Even after a surprise attack. No driving the Jews into the sea...that'll have to wait for the next Arab-Israeli War.

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Brian: Excuse me. Are you the Judean People's Front?

Reg: F**k off! We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front...pfffft.

---Monty Python's Life of Brian

This thread and post describes a good model for what an independent, self-determining Palestine would look like (link).

[JB Globe]

Giving any one side a blank cheque in a morally ambigious conflict just translates into a longer conflict.

Let's hope that the hardliners on both sides finally come to their senses when they realize that the tit-for-tat has gotten their respective sides nowhere. That's why it's called a cycle of violence - that road doesn't lead anywhere.

[myata]

I read an article in the L'Actualite, by Israel's prominent writer; he said, and I 100% agree with it, that the secret of the lasting settlement is very simple and is known to everybody, i.e: 1) separate states, in the original borders (or mutually agreed variations thereof), 2) East Jerusalem as capital of Palestinian state; 3) compensation to displaced in exchange for no right of return. To which I would only add recognition of problems with unilateral creation of Israel and complicity of some Western powers in it; apology; and compensation.

That neither Israel, nor her big buddy in Washington ever dare to pronounce the simple truth that is known to pretty much everybody, only shows that there's still a long painful way to go. Peace cannot be achieved without justice, and good will. Having the biggest muscle on the planet play into your court is probably the biggest obstacle to real lasting peace one could imagine.

[Argus]

I prefer a balanced approach, which Canada followed until Harper got elected. Harper is engaging in Israel appeasement. Israel appeasement is not going to bring peace to the Middle East.

Ah yes, the "balanced" approach which saw Canada repeatedly voting with the Muslim block on the same old one-sided, unfair condemnations of Israel year after year after year so they would like us and throw some money our way.

I think all anti-Semites liked that approach.

[Oleg Bach]

Ah yes, the "balanced" approach which saw Canada repeatedly voting with the Muslim block on the same old one-sided, unfair condemnations of Israel year after year after year so they would like us and throw some money our way.

I think all anti-Semites liked that approach.

Harper is underdeveloped socially when it comes to understanding the powers that be..He is still one of those guys with limited vision who actually think you have to appease the Jews in Canada though Israel..because in his stero-typical mind he believes that the Jews maintain some sort of economic clout and he has to pander to them..Harper is not an insider. Most that are informed understand that the Jews are not in control of economics domestically or internationally..it's the anglo elite that that are in ulitmate control. Harper is as slow as Layton..who is so limited in his scope and perception of Canada and the world that he actually believes that we are in Afghanistan "so a little girl can go to school" - or so those macho Taliban beardies don't hit a woman with a stick for showing an ankle...You really will never get a balance approach from most poiticians because most are out of the real loop. "Musslim Block" - yep...and don't forget the Tamal "voting block" _ That the liberals sucked up to untill Harper branded them as terrorists. Putting things in perspective..to say that there are "unfair condemnations of Israel" ....... well...The anlgo elite will protect Israel...untill they are no longer of any use or service..this is cyclical and condemnations of Israel come and go like the weather.

[eyeball]

You claim Israel gets its weapons from the same source as the Arabs. I call BS.

Saudi Arabia is America’s top customer. Since 1990, the U.S. government, through the Pentagon’s arms export program, has arranged for the delivery of more than $39.6 billion in foreign military sales to Saudi Arabia, and an additional $394 million worth of arms were delivered to the Saudi regime through the State Department’s direct commercial sales program during that same period.

BS

Israel is one of the United State’s largest arms importers. In the last decade, the United States has sold Israel $7.2 billion in weaponry and military equipment, $762 million through Direct Commercial Sales (DCS), more than $6.5 billion through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program.

More BS

Go, figure.

I don't know if Saudi Arabia is doing this too but I wouldn't be surprised if they were.

U.S. Arms Sales to Israel End Up In China, Iraq

[DogOnPorch]

Go, figure.

I don't know if Saudi Arabia is doing this too but I wouldn't be surprised if they were.

U.S. Arms Sales to Israel End Up In China, Iraq

I should have been clearer.

Oleg was refering to individual arms buyers/sellers. I asked for a source. If you look, you'll find all Arab countries except Syria use US purchaced equipment...just like the Israelis. We even had a thread about it somewhere and I detailed the US equipment in use.

My apologies for the confusion.

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Ho-Ho-Ho...Green Giant.

[eyeball]

I guess the only thing worse than picking one side is picking all of them.

If you look, you'll find all Arab countries, even Syria benefit from US military exports to the ME.

In response to a report that China has been transferring missile materials and technology to Syria, State Department spokesman Philip Reeker said, "We've repeatedly made these concerns known to the Chinese government and we're going to continue to do so. We also take seriously reports that Syria may be seeking from China materials for its missile program."

Source

Weapon technology spreads like an STD - its a gift that keeps on giving.

[DogOnPorch]

I guess the only thing worse than picking one side is picking all of them.

If you look, you'll find all Arab countries, even Syria benefit from US military exports to the ME.

Weapon technology spreads like an STD - its a gift that keeps on giving.

Well, Red China is a cheap whore and a thief when it comes other people's technology. Syria, however doesn't directly buy their equipment from the United States. Their standard rifle is the AK-47...their standard tank I believe is the T-72 or T-80...aircraft...the latest MiGs and Sukhois.

Iran has a sizable stock of US equipment from the Shah's time but there are no spare parts.

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I voted for you during your last election.

---Mao Tse-Tung

Edited May 19, 2008 by DogOnPorch